This is 1.8% of their workforce. Their normal annual turnover is 8%.
Whatever you do, please understand that if you had the vaccine it doesn't mean that you cannot transmit covid.
Here's a research summary from last month[1] that shows that vaccines continue to perform strongly at transmission reduction.
Edit: A direct link to the NEJM study (9/8/21) showing reduced transmission[2].
[1]: https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/09/covid-va...
The second link you provided is actually relevant. Thanks.
If you say it's too old to study the current virus, it's also too old to justify any treatments or policy with the current virus.
The same people saying "close enough" with vaccine transmissibility trials based on the original virus applying to delta, are the same ones saying natural immunity transmissibility studies done on the original virus don't apply to delta.
And now that we've got real numbers on natural immunity that beat vaccination (alone) numbers, that number is no longer "good enough"?
BS. It's not just moving goal posts, it's completely different moving goalposts for each side.
ETA:
>extraordinary for it to be invalidated outright.
Actually, if the whole "vaccinated cases are usually so mild you don't have symptoms" is true, and the Israeli research about viral loads for break through cases being as high as unvaccinated cases is also true...
Then vaccinated workers at a hospital could very well be worse, because they'd be transmitting the virus and infecting patients, while being less likely to have symptoms making them aware that they're likely infected and causing harm.
That's not exactly far fetched, based on current claims.
You know what gives far superior protection than natural immunity gained via infection? Getting vaccinated after having been infected. You're more than twice as likely to be re-infected if you've had COVID once and don't get vaccinated vs. having COVID and then getting vaccinated[1]. So even if you've had COVID, if you take the free, extremely safe vaccine you are now less than half as likely to be re-infected, which likely means you're much less likely to spread it to someone else.
> Then vaccinated workers at a hospital could very well be worse, because they'd be transmitting the virus and infecting patients, while being less likely to have symptoms making them aware that they're likely infected and causing harm.
This is something that anti-vax people seem to like to bring up as a possibility with no data to back it up. The data we actually do have[2], by directly measuring the secondary attack rate ("chance that an infected person infects another person") actually shows that vaccinated people are less likely to infect others.
1. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr... 2. https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.E...
People keep bringing up these studies and links to research that was conducted before the Delta variant became dominant. Are you all simply unaware that it's not relevant anymore?
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/the-vaccin...
The impact of SARS-CoV-2 vaccination on Alpha & Delta variant transmission
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v...
Another example of a major outbreak in a 96% vaccinated and high PPE setting: https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.E...
No relationship between case rates and vaccination across 68 countries: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7
The CDC prison study says "The attack rate was higher among unvaccinated versus fully vaccinated persons (39 of 42, 93% versus 129 of 185, 70%; p = 0.002)."
The Eurosurveillance article you posted says "The calculated attack rate among all exposed patients and staff was 10.6% (16/151) for staff and 23.7% (23/97) for patients, in a population with 96.2% vaccination rate (238 vaccinated/248 exposed individuals)." Do you think that indicates that vaccines don't reduce spread? What do you think the attack rate would be in an unvaccinated population?
The European Journal of Epidemiology article isn't actually trying to look at vaccine effectiveness in reducing spread. It has some interesting information, but that's not what it's about.
That study cannot be used to disprove the idea that the unvaccinated inmates all gave the virus to the vaccinated ones. That is almost certainly wrong and there should have been some onwards transmission from the vaccinated, but that sentence is quite literally correct. The study says nothing about it.
Meanwhile I've posted elsewhere:
The impact of SARS-CoV-2 vaccination on Alpha & Delta variant transmission
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v...
That study is real world contact tracing.
More so if the argument is that the hospital patient population is especially vulnerable.
We don't even know if the likelihood of transmission is reduced enough to affect over number of transmissions.
narrator: "they aren't".
My argument might be more subtle than my comment makes it seem; if so, that's my fault, because I wrote downthread as well and probably assumed people read both comments. A very large cohort of the workers in a regional health chain are not medical professionals, but rather support staff. Those are the employees that I'm saying are relatively low-skilled and replaceable. What's more, our current economic conditions make it straightforward for them to hop to other jobs right now.
What you're saying seems pretty unlikely, given the demographics of vaccination.
This claim was always implausible on its face, but having so adamantly claimed this, public health does not now get to claim that huge numbers of workers can be trivially hired and trained within a few weeks. If that actually is the case then the justification for lockdowns evaporates.
Which is only putting more stress on the ones who stayed, and it's getting to where they are getting burnt out, having gone through a year and a half of COVID and now taking to the slack due to the shortages.
No telling what's going to happen when the vaccine mandate kicks in next month for most of the nurses.
The normal overnight staffing where my wife works is usually one doctor, 3-mid levels and 6 nurses.
They've been down to one doctor and 1-2 nurses for most of the last month.
What makes you more qualified than the people who actually have professional education, training, and experience in running a hospital?
Where did this idea come from that we vaccinated people need to be protected from the unvaccinated? That’s what the vaccine is _for_, protecting us from the unvaccinated. And it’s good at its job!
And delta is so transmissible that herd immunity is no longer achievable even with 100% vaccinated.
For the most part, and if you're healthy. Unfortunately in a hospital you're working with people that are vulnerable.
Why is this such a controversial thing anyways? In the past we've made vaccines mandatory.
And the line drawn isn't even an arbitrary number, but an arbitrary policy with an assumed improvement.
An improvement that we know isn't good enough to prevent spread in populations with near 100% vaccination rates.
It doesn't need to be 100% effective at stopping spread to be an excellent idea.
There is ample evidence that suggests the exact opposite[1].
https://web.archive.org/web/20201101161006/https:/www.who.in...
https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease...
Also, the threshold for herd immunity is based partially on how well the virus spreads, and Delta changed that, which means that the threshold for herd immunity probably changed. When facts change, the messaging needs to change to stay accurate.
Herd immunity is a moving target because people like Fauci change their assessment of it depending on opinion polls. That's by his own words, not anyone else's. The guy admitted it to the New York Times. The "science" is not evolving and people who keep claiming it is, are just hurting the credibility of actual science even more than it's already been hurt. After all, a "science" that is constantly asserting things with 100% confidence and then next week asserts something totally different, also with 100% confidence (which they do), is actually pretty worthless to society.
Stats say you are most likely to catch it from your kids.
They don’t really have a choice about hospital visits and have no meaningful way of verifying vaccination status of who interacts with them at the hospital. It’s bad enough they have trouble finding out if all their providers are in network, but at least that issue only means debt not death.
That's the last person I want anywhere near me. Especially if they're nurses. I've run across a lot of nurses who think they know better than doctors, and this seems like a fantastic way to weed them out.
How much you want to bet "accidental" deaths go down after this?
Public health in a nutshell. The world will not forget.
The vast majority of us knew that this was serious from the get go and acted accordingly. The majority of us have received our vaccinations and the rest have now been or real soon now be weeded out for their pro-disease and anti-science ideology.
More like selfish idiots to me.
Or a software engineer that didn't believe in binary?
The real question is: why do you trust people that they don't?
There are a lot of infamous incidents caused by people thinking they know better than the people who designed stuff and actually had training, experience, and education in that field. Doing things like changing fastener grades, or styles, or completely changing how something is put together. The most ready example I can think of is the hotel bridge collapse that killed a couple dozen people, because some mouth-breather thought he knew better than the structural engineers that drew up plans on how to anchor the bridge to its overhead supports.
Virtually nobody at a hospital is qualified to second-guess vaccines, and the people who do are people I don't want anywhere near patient care because they're going to second-guess other experts, like the doctors they work with, the instructions for equipment and drugs, etc.
...and the people in the hospital are also in a great position to verify that (1) vaccines work.
Let P(H|V) be the probability that had outcome H happens if you are vaccinated, and let P(H|~V) be the probability of that had outcome when you are not vaccinated.
Then P(H|V) / P(H|~V) = P(~V) / P(V) x P(V|H) / P(~V|H)
where P(V|H) is the probability that someone with outcome H was vaccinated, and P(~V|H) is the probability that someone with outcome H was not vaccinated.
All they need to do is look at their patients that have outcome H (such as being hospitalized, or dying) and count how many were vaccinated and how many were not, find out the vaccination rate of the community their patients came from, and they can calculate P(H|V) / P(H|~V) which is how much vaccination reduces your chances of H.
For example, if 70% of the people in your community are vaccinated, and you have 50 people who died from COVID in the last month, 5 vaccinated and 45 not vaccinated, you'd get that P(H|V) / P(H|~V) = 0.048. Vaccination is reducing a person's chances of dying by 95%.
So even if they don't want to just trust the experts they can see for themselves that the experts are telling the truth.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/12/3756639...
>Stop being selfish and...
His body his choice.
Additionally, this isn't how public health works. Vaccines are a level of protection that is easy to standardize and operationalize. We don't let schoolchildren skip getting the chickenpox vaccine if they've already had chickenpox.
Don't say people have a choice, then punish those who decided to choose to not get vaccinated.
I'm fully vaccinated and so is my wife, but I'll fight for the right of those who decide to not get vaccinated.
It's not ok to call other names (like "egoist") when they exercise the choice they still, to this date, have.
There's no such thing as "near zero risk from COVID." There are factors that make you high risk (age, obesity, etc) but whether covid ends up being "nothing" to "a bit sick for a few days" to "sick for weeks" to "hospitalized" to "fatal" is basically luck of the draw.
The odds of dying from covid are far, far worse than the odds of any complication from the vaccine.
95%+ of the people in my area's ICUs for covid are unvaccinated, according to the supervising physician who was interviewed on the radio.
> I don't like injecting unnecessary stuff in there.
That's...not how that works. This sounds like the same stuff new parents believe about how they don't want to "overload" their baby's immune system with too many vaccines at once. Their immune system sees more "load" from them picking a pacifier off the floor of their living room and sticking it in their mouth.
Please speak to your primary care physician.
None of these people opposes vaccines. They either don't accept THIS vaccine, esp. how politicized it has become, and they don't accept being force do take it.
They also realize that a global pandemic has left no country untouched, and even enemies are desperate for vaccination.
Finally, adults realize what a privileged position we’re in and that insisting rights are being trampled (whose rights?) doesn’t make it so
https://www.aier.org/article/no-lockdowns-the-terrifying-pol...
Context is everything: Polio affected less than 1% of the population. Even a smaller fraction, when counting those paralyzed.
Still a scary disease.
I'm in Canada and my spouse had some concerns about AZ when it was first being rolled out in pharmacies by booked appointments - so I waited until the national rollout of Pfizer & Moderna - if you've got concerns over a specific version of the vaccine there are other options.
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2021/07/18/im-not-taking-it-joe... (listen to the video)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-to-join-california-...
I'm not making this up. This is mainstream news or primary sources.
EDIT:
Donald Trump has been quite clear about the utility of the vaccine and proud of its development and availability under his administration.
If you haven't seen these before, and didn't know this until now, despite this having been one year ago, ask yourself why? Is it because you were fed a particular narrative?
The first one where they say they will take any vaccine recommended by health experts, and not one recommended by a reality TV host known for recommending bleach and hydroxychloroquine as remedies?
Or the second one where they switch together some out-of-context clips to make it seem like they are saying something that they are are not?
Or maybe it’s the third one that contains nothing of substance other than mentioning a working group that after the article was published fully recommended the FDA approved covid vaccines?
The 'reality TV host' was also president of the United States. This is like calling Joe Biden a plagiarizer and not mentioning he is the POTUS. Joe Biden recommended jab #3 before the CDC made a declaration. He even likely affected the CDC decision. You're editorializing here.
As to the links... I don't know what to say. The videos of the exact interviews are all available online in their full content. I remember watching them at the time and finding it shocking the democratic party suddenly became anti-vaccine. I don't understand why I need to find great articles when the full clips are available for your review as well as transcriptions (and are linked or the source explicitly mentioned from the articles I posted).
But because it might be difficult for you. Here you go. THis is my last quote. Joe Biden laid into the minds of million americans during his campaign that the approvals of the Trump vaccines were made by political pressure. HE literally said it.
Here is the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCpyx2T-lDA&t=863s
No news, no spin. Just the man himself.
Here is the full quote:
> If and when the vaccine comes, it’s not likely to go through all the tests that need to be done, and the trials that are needed to be done. > > and the question is if he's going to seek emergency move.
Literally most criticisms of the vaccine, most hesitant people, are hesitant because the vaccine was rolled out under emergency use, and all vaccines given in this country right now are still under emergency use. The OR/WA/CA task forces fed into this narrative. Harris's statements did so as well.
Joe Biden implied that emergency use authorization was not enough. Then when elected president, immediately, everyone had to get the jab while they are still under emergency use authorization. This is just hypocrisy plain and simple. A responsible statement at the time of the campaign would have simply been to say, I will trust whatever expert scientsts say, and while perhaps I don't trust Donald Trump, I trust our FDA scientists.
Joe Biden was the first mainstream politician to cast doubt in the minds of millions of Americans. Stop pretending. What more evidence do you want?
If using binary may incur a chance of heart failure and blood clots, yes, I'd be sure to hire a software engineer who didn't do that.
I agree if they fired people wfh that was stupid, but for doctors and nurses? Yeah they are a liability for other patients.
Because 1) they're not illegal and 2) they're quite useful to society as we want to make sure everyone gets vaccinated.
https://nypost.com/2021/03/15/italy-france-germany-pull-astr...
https://nypost.com/2021/10/04/twitter-criticized-for-fact-ch...
For me personally, I don't know anyone who's died of COVID, but I know two people who had complications from the vaccine, including my aunt who was already in fragile health and who was sent to the hospital due to myocarditis, and then told not to get shot number two. She's already partially disabled because of her health problems, but because of government mandate that requires she be 'fully vaccinated' (i.e., dead in her case) she can also no longer work any job (even remote ones, because apparently sitting in your home working is also illegal). Thanks Joe Biden!
Though unary is quite sufficient, it really depends upon whether they are legally licensed to practice software engineering. Believing or not believing in numbers or numbering systens, which are ideas with no tangible existence, can not be a criteria for employment because federal law (Title VII of the Civil Rights Act) and the laws of most states prohibit employers from engaging in religious discrimination.[1]
[1] https://www.cantorsparadise.com/why-mathematics-isnt-much-di...
Don't take this as a request not to be vaccinated, but rushing has created some very bad problems in the past: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/cancer/in-dep...
Easy to hire and train new janitors and dish-staff
I don’t know what the answer/solution is. But nobody has the right to put others at risk.
As others have pointed out, those 1400 workers were also not necessarily essential medical personnel. All other things being equal, Joe in Billing is more likely to be resistant to getting his shot than Susie in Immunology.
I've been working from home too, but that doesn't stop me from going to the bar on the weekends (I'm not sure about where you live, but in NY they've been open for months).
And to point out the obvious: at some point, Northwell is going to want Joe to return to the basement of whatever hospital his billing department is in.
Northern states stay inside in the winter.
The fact that they kept it running doesn't mean they actually run the place now and can do as they wish. I only hope that the severance is good and reflects their contribution well, but they Northwell is well within their rights to require vaccination in their workplace now.
“We’re facing a terrible teacher shortage so we can’t fire the ones who abuse the kids just a little bit.”
That is an absolutely absurd comparison.
Firing unqualified idiots is always an excellent choice.
Your caring about people is out of date, comrade. Trust the numbers!
I hope so. When better to fire workers who won't comply with safety protocols than in an "ongoing pandemic"?
The number of lies (and censorship) being used to sell this mandate is pretty shocking. This won't end well for Democrats in 2022.
Regardless of whatever the argument is about those who haven't had it.
For a large portion of the population, COVID isn’t a death sentence. I had COVID not long ago and it was like every other flu I’ve ever had—aches, lethargy, over in 3 days. I didn’t even know it was COVID (instead of a normal flu) until my sense of smell was gone. (Back a week later)
The risks are unknown, the benefits are unknown, the censorship and group-think is real though. Fuck that, I won't be getting any of the current vaccines, I'll go homeless and defecating on the streets of SF before I allow any of the current Pfizer, J&J or MOderna jabs into my own body. Novavax looks a lot more promising, so if safety data for it isn't censored by the media and social media including Youtube, I'll gladly get one.
NYS implemented a mandate for all healthcare organizations to follow.
Deadline was end of September and all organizations followed through on it.
Welcome to the club. If there were the pandemic we were promised and made to be afraid of... we'd be seeing people collapsing in the street as the CCP made us believe. Yet, I don't even know anyone who's died of COVID. I know a handful of people who've had it. I know several people hospitalized for other random things. No COVID deaths. One COVID hospitalization (now recovered).
I'm meant to honestly believe that the hospital system is on the brink of collapse, and that you are now firing 1400 workers who have been the ones keeping it going for the last 20 months?
I think this might be my "yeah, the pandemic is officially over" moment. You don't fire the freaking healthcare workers in a time when you supposedly need them desperately.