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Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by aaomidi on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:34PM (#28753089)
Would you hire a carpenter that didn't believe in nails?

Or a software engineer that didn't believe in binary?

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by rajin444 on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:38PM (#28753167)
Unfortunately vaccine efficacy is something almost nobody can verify on their own so trust is required.

The real question is: why do you trust people that they don't?

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by rwcarlsen on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:38PM (#28753166)
That's a pretty poor analogy. Nails are often the right and often the wrong tool for different circumstances. And there are different kinds of nails. Lots of carpenters have preferences for what types of hardware they use - based on their own experience and that of experience from others. And even if I disagreed with a carpenter on what tools were right for any given particular circumstance, it would be silly to try to micromanage them doing their job - just let them do their work!
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by AdamHominem on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:13PM (#28753574)
But if an expert in fasteners says "use this nail/bolt, made of this material and grade, for this application"...and then Joe Roofer says "WELL I actually work on roofs unlike those ivory tower mechanical and structural engineers, I'll use what I think is best" and then years later a couple people get killed...

There are a lot of infamous incidents caused by people thinking they know better than the people who designed stuff and actually had training, experience, and education in that field. Doing things like changing fastener grades, or styles, or completely changing how something is put together. The most ready example I can think of is the hotel bridge collapse that killed a couple dozen people, because some mouth-breather thought he knew better than the structural engineers that drew up plans on how to anchor the bridge to its overhead supports.

Virtually nobody at a hospital is qualified to second-guess vaccines, and the people who do are people I don't want anywhere near patient care because they're going to second-guess other experts, like the doctors they work with, the instructions for equipment and drugs, etc.

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by tzs on Monday October 04, 2021 @09:20PM (#28754443)
> Virtually nobody at a hospital is qualified to second-guess vaccines

...and the people in the hospital are also in a great position to verify that (1) vaccines work.

Let P(H|V) be the probability that had outcome H happens if you are vaccinated, and let P(H|~V) be the probability of that had outcome when you are not vaccinated.

Then P(H|V) / P(H|~V) = P(~V) / P(V) x P(V|H) / P(~V|H)

where P(V|H) is the probability that someone with outcome H was vaccinated, and P(~V|H) is the probability that someone with outcome H was not vaccinated.

All they need to do is look at their patients that have outcome H (such as being hospitalized, or dying) and count how many were vaccinated and how many were not, find out the vaccination rate of the community their patients came from, and they can calculate P(H|V) / P(H|~V) which is how much vaccination reduces your chances of H.

For example, if 70% of the people in your community are vaccinated, and you have 50 people who died from COVID in the last month, 5 vaccinated and 45 not vaccinated, you'd get that P(H|V) / P(H|~V) = 0.048. Vaccination is reducing a person's chances of dying by 95%.

So even if they don't want to just trust the experts they can see for themselves that the experts are telling the truth.

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by simondotau on Tuesday October 05, 2021 @05:06PM (#28765643)
Or for people who want their math in pie chart form

https://twitter.com/simondotau/status/1444537141413888003

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by dudeofea on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:13PM (#28754041)
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by iammisc on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:21PM (#28753641)
Would you listen to an expert doctor who didn't wash his hands before childbirth or a old wive's tail midwife? BEcause this is an actual life and death scenario, and history doesn't look well on the 'experts'.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/12/3756639...

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by throwaway0a5e on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:44PM (#28753240)
I can see "nails vs screws" ending in a brawl if enough alcohol is served beforehand. The first punch would probably be thrown after the clipboard warrior makes some quip about dovetails and other "fastener free" joints and gets everyone riled up.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by rwcarlsen on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:02PM (#28753462)
I'm a draw-bored mortise and tenon guy myself.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by MarkLowenstein on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:42PM (#28753213)
They're probably like me. I know the vaccine helps. I also know that I have near-zero risk from COVID. So I don't get the vaccine because I don't like injecting unnecessary stuff in there.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by jaas on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:49PM (#28753305)
It’s not all about you. Unvaccinated people are more likely to infect others. Stop being selfish and get vaccinated.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by sdjfhsdkfhlskjh on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:04PM (#28753477)
>It’s not all about you...

>Stop being selfish and...

His body his choice.

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by staplers on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:13PM (#28753577)
Healthcare providers choice to fire their employees.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by TacticalCoder on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:58PM (#28753930)
Even some who got tested positive in the past and who have better immunity than most of the vaccinated ones...
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by lamontcg on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:39PM (#28754198)
You're getting the spike protein mRNA in you one way or another. Only question is if you want to go the low risk route or the high risk route (and your risk of hospitalization is non-zero, it runs at about 2% for 20 year olds, even though death rates are much lower).
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by bigodbiel on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:48PM (#28753288)
Or they got it already, and equally or better protected than by vaccination.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by jjwiseman on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:12PM (#28753559)
There's evidence that the vaccines give better protection than natural infection. There's also evidence that being infected and then being vaccinated gives better protection than either one by itself.

Additionally, this isn't how public health works. Vaccines are a level of protection that is easy to standardize and operationalize. We don't let schoolchildren skip getting the chickenpox vaccine if they've already had chickenpox.

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by TacticalCoder on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:03PM (#28753964)
OK but then make the vaccine (which one btw? there's so many to choose from for sars-cov-2) mandatory.

Don't say people have a choice, then punish those who decided to choose to not get vaccinated.

I'm fully vaccinated and so is my wife, but I'll fight for the right of those who decide to not get vaccinated.

It's not ok to call other names (like "egoist") when they exercise the choice they still, to this date, have.

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by AdamHominem on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:21PM (#28753639)
> I also know that I have near-zero risk from COVID

There's no such thing as "near zero risk from COVID." There are factors that make you high risk (age, obesity, etc) but whether covid ends up being "nothing" to "a bit sick for a few days" to "sick for weeks" to "hospitalized" to "fatal" is basically luck of the draw.

The odds of dying from covid are far, far worse than the odds of any complication from the vaccine.

95%+ of the people in my area's ICUs for covid are unvaccinated, according to the supervising physician who was interviewed on the radio.

> I don't like injecting unnecessary stuff in there.

That's...not how that works. This sounds like the same stuff new parents believe about how they don't want to "overload" their baby's immune system with too many vaccines at once. Their immune system sees more "load" from them picking a pacifier off the floor of their living room and sticking it in their mouth.

Please speak to your primary care physician.

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by bobthechef on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:38PM (#28753151)
Very poor comparison that misrepresents their motives.

None of these people opposes vaccines. They either don't accept THIS vaccine, esp. how politicized it has become, and they don't accept being force do take it.

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by nobodyandproud on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:47PM (#28753281)
That is the reaction of a child. Not an adult working in a critical service.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by iammisc on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:24PM (#28753667)
Adults realize the danger in unchecked authority. Children do not. That is why they trust their parents without question. It's only as an older teenager you come to realize that your parents are imperfect people, with idiosyncracies, faults, and problems of their own.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by nobodyandproud on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:48PM (#28753859)
Adults realize what unchecked authority is like, and that this isn’t it.

They also realize that a global pandemic has left no country untouched, and even enemies are desperate for vaccination.

Finally, adults realize what a privileged position we’re in and that insisting rights are being trampled (whose rights?) doesn’t make it so

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by iammisc on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:56PM (#28753916)
Except the global pandemic has left the vast vast vast majority of the world's population untouched.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by nobodyandproud on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:09PM (#28754008)
Except it has affected many.

https://www.aier.org/article/no-lockdowns-the-terrifying-pol...

Context is everything: Polio affected less than 1% of the population. Even a smaller fraction, when counting those paralyzed.

Still a scary disease.

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by iammisc on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:26PM (#28754116)
Oh really? How many people have been hospitalized or died compared to how many people are alive today?
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by nobodyandproud on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:37PM (#28754183)
Far more than some of scary diseases that we eradicated last century.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by munk-a on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:45PM (#28753258)
At least when it comes to the US - these vaccines have been strongly embraced by major figures in both political parties. They were mostly developed and rolled out initially under Trump and have been continued under Biden - so both sides of the aisle would really like you to get it.

I'm in Canada and my spouse had some concerns about AZ when it was first being rolled out in pharmacies by booked appointments - so I waited until the national rollout of Pfizer & Moderna - if you've got concerns over a specific version of the vaccine there are other options.

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by orf on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:44PM (#28753251)
Who politicised it and why? And when you say THIS vaccine, which one?
[dead]
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by literallyaduck on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:43PM (#28753826)
Got any links from reputable sources for those claims?
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by iammisc on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:56PM (#28753920)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/news/kamala-harris-s...

https://www.bizpacreview.com/2021/07/18/im-not-taking-it-joe... (listen to the video)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-to-join-california-...

I'm not making this up. This is mainstream news or primary sources.

EDIT:

Donald Trump has been quite clear about the utility of the vaccine and proud of its development and availability under his administration.

If you haven't seen these before, and didn't know this until now, despite this having been one year ago, ask yourself why? Is it because you were fed a particular narrative?

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by orf on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:16PM (#28754051)
Which link says they would not take the vaccine “under trump”?

The first one where they say they will take any vaccine recommended by health experts, and not one recommended by a reality TV host known for recommending bleach and hydroxychloroquine as remedies?

Or the second one where they switch together some out-of-context clips to make it seem like they are saying something that they are are not?

Or maybe it’s the third one that contains nothing of substance other than mentioning a working group that after the article was published fully recommended the FDA approved covid vaccines?

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by iammisc on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:27PM (#28754123)
> The first one where they say they will take any vaccine recommended by health experts, and not one recommended by a reality TV host known for recommending bleach and hydroxychloroquine as remedies?

The 'reality TV host' was also president of the United States. This is like calling Joe Biden a plagiarizer and not mentioning he is the POTUS. Joe Biden recommended jab #3 before the CDC made a declaration. He even likely affected the CDC decision. You're editorializing here.

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by orf on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:33PM (#28754160)
Can you respond to my original question in your next reply rather than deflecting? Thanks! I would never think that you wouldn't reply to this because you posted a bunch of half-assed links that anyone with half a brain could see where complete garbage, so I can't wait to read your nuanced defence of them.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by iammisc on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @02:07AM (#28769737)
You claim I'm deflecting after starting the name calling. Perhaps if you spoke using proper language, you wouldn't get such smarmy responses. Claiming the vax was recommended by a 'reality show host' neglects the fact he was the POTUS. While it would indeed be odd for reality tv hosts to make vaccine recommendations, politicians and leaders do so all the time. Look at what the current president is doing. Isn't that what everyone wanted? You are currently blaming trump for both having pushed the vaccine and for not pushing it enough apparently.

As to the links... I don't know what to say. The videos of the exact interviews are all available online in their full content. I remember watching them at the time and finding it shocking the democratic party suddenly became anti-vaccine. I don't understand why I need to find great articles when the full clips are available for your review as well as transcriptions (and are linked or the source explicitly mentioned from the articles I posted).

But because it might be difficult for you. Here you go. THis is my last quote. Joe Biden laid into the minds of million americans during his campaign that the approvals of the Trump vaccines were made by political pressure. HE literally said it.

Here is the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCpyx2T-lDA&t=863s

No news, no spin. Just the man himself.

Here is the full quote:

> If and when the vaccine comes, it’s not likely to go through all the tests that need to be done, and the trials that are needed to be done. > > and the question is if he's going to seek emergency move.

Literally most criticisms of the vaccine, most hesitant people, are hesitant because the vaccine was rolled out under emergency use, and all vaccines given in this country right now are still under emergency use. The OR/WA/CA task forces fed into this narrative. Harris's statements did so as well.

Joe Biden implied that emergency use authorization was not enough. Then when elected president, immediately, everyone had to get the jab while they are still under emergency use authorization. This is just hypocrisy plain and simple. A responsible statement at the time of the campaign would have simply been to say, I will trust whatever expert scientsts say, and while perhaps I don't trust Donald Trump, I trust our FDA scientists.

Joe Biden was the first mainstream politician to cast doubt in the minds of millions of Americans. Stop pretending. What more evidence do you want?

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by iammisc on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:36PM (#28753109)
> Or a software engineer that didn't believe in binary

If using binary may incur a chance of heart failure and blood clots, yes, I'd be sure to hire a software engineer who didn't do that.

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by stickfigure on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:43PM (#28753223)
A better comparison would be a software engineer who refuses to patch his out-of-date operating system because he's "not sure what the updates will do".
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by beerandt on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:50PM (#28753315)
As opposed to installing every published patch, without internal testing, whether the patch is needed/applicable, or not?
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by iammisc on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:11PM (#28753548)
Without realizing it, you're criticizing debian's release methodology without realizing why people use debian. There is often good reason not to just patch things willy-nilly. Patches that are easy and allay obvious safety concerns yes. But being a little bit behind bleeding edge is a good thing.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by lamontcg on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:44PM (#28754226)
The virus is a zero day unauthenticated remote code exploit against postfix. Dunno how we're so far into this thing and people don't get that yet.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by aaomidi on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:37PM (#28753131)
How about unvaccinated staff pose a risk to patients who are in the hospital and likely immunocompromised?

I agree if they fired people wfh that was stupid, but for doctors and nurses? Yeah they are a liability for other patients.

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by iammisc on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:15PM (#28753593)
Except they are firing people. My company just announced all remote employees must be vaccinated. What does that mean? That is what their lawyers told them the vax mandate means. The same vax mandates that are getting nurses fired. Why can't people just come out and say it that the federal government mandates in their current form are illegal?
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by munk-a on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:42PM (#28753817)
> Why can't people just come out and say it that the federal government mandates in their current form are illegal?

Because 1) they're not illegal and 2) they're quite useful to society as we want to make sure everyone gets vaccinated.

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by iammisc on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:44PM (#28753836)
Nonsense. You have no evidence to show they're not illegal.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by aaomidi on Tuesday October 05, 2021 @04:04AM (#28756625)
To show they're illegal the burden of proof is on you.
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by epistasis on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:38PM (#28753161)
What are you talking about here? Could you provide some documentation?
Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by iammisc on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:51PM (#28753330)
https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/patient-safety-outcome...

https://nypost.com/2021/03/15/italy-france-germany-pull-astr...

https://nypost.com/2021/10/04/twitter-criticized-for-fact-ch...

For me personally, I don't know anyone who's died of COVID, but I know two people who had complications from the vaccine, including my aunt who was already in fragile health and who was sent to the hospital due to myocarditis, and then told not to get shot number two. She's already partially disabled because of her health problems, but because of government mandate that requires she be 'fully vaccinated' (i.e., dead in her case) she can also no longer work any job (even remote ones, because apparently sitting in your home working is also illegal). Thanks Joe Biden!

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by Maursault on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:04PM (#28753970)
> Would you hire... a software engineer that didn't believe in binary?

Though unary is quite sufficient, it really depends upon whether they are legally licensed to practice software engineering. Believing or not believing in numbers or numbering systens, which are ideas with no tangible existence, can not be a criteria for employment because federal law (Title VII of the Civil Rights Act) and the laws of most states prohibit employers from engaging in religious discrimination.[1]

[1] https://www.cantorsparadise.com/why-mathematics-isnt-much-di...

Re:New York's largest healthcare provider fires 1,400 unvacc... by literallyaduck on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:46PM (#28753279)
I'd say this is more akin to taking a software beta. Prior to a few months ago it was still experimental and in alpha. The software was rushed to market and you have no recourse if it bricks your system. The vaccine mandate is similar to forcing only trusted users on your network. Now you have created a catch 22 because any dissenters have been removed from the health care system.

Don't take this as a request not to be vaccinated, but rushing has created some very bad problems in the past: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/cancer/in-dep...