In men, there are complications with your body’s natural testosterone production. If you inject test (the most basic anabolic steroid) then in order to maintain a sort of homeostasis, your body will lower its natural test production. The same goes for any other anabolic steroid, as they are all test derivatives.

As a result, when you end your cycle, your body needs to restart its natural test production. There can be a delay while this happens and it leads to unpleasant, though temporary, side effects, like weight gain and a loss of sexual appetite. This can be mitigated somewhat by taking estrogen regulators such as Clomid, which is a prescription drug for women.

Anyway, the upshot of all this is injecting steroids in men is sort of complicated. For your rehab scenario, your doctor would have to monitor your test and estrogen levels as you end your cycle. For moderate cycles like with your calf rehab, the dangers are vastly overblown in the media, but the short-term side effects can be bothersome.

Note that women don’t face these issues and indeed women can take convenient oral steroids like eg Winstrol without having to inject test to compensate for their natural production getting shut down, because they hardly have any natural production to begin with. Indeed, ethics aside, the arguments for women to do a very moderate cycle for your rehab scenario or just athletic performance are pretty strong.

What you’re saying is true for long term abuse of steroids, but a modest one month cycle of deca for recovery from surgery will not result in any of these side effects in the vast majority of cases. Sensible tapering would make them even less likely.

As others in this thread have pointed out it’s not necessarily a good approach for healing a tendon, and could be counterproductive.

Back in the day when designer “pro-steroids” (basically tweaked pro-hormones that metabolized into anabolic steroids in the body) were widely and legally available from supplement manufacturers, I had a bone graft surgery scheduled and wrote to the chemist who had developed one of the better products to get advice on a cycle for my recovery. This is anecdotal of course, but my surgeon told me that when she was fixing up the bone she realized it was in worse shape than the MRI had indicated and she puts the odds of success at 50/50. She was amazed at the speed and completeness of my recovery. I still have Frankenstein scars where the stitches were because my skin had “healed so quickly” that the stitches were difficult to remove and left gnarly holes.

I like to think that the supplement tipped the odds in my favour. Despite the well-established benefits of anabolic steroids on bone healing, the stigma around them means they are almost never prescribed even in bad cases. YMMV, but other than a few friends commenting that I a bit of an asshole while on the cycle (which could have just been the misery of post-surgery), I suffered no ill after-effects and actually put on a few pounds of lean mass despite being largely convalescent.

Not all steroids will immediately shut down your HPTA like test would. There are drugs like Oxandrolone (Anavar) which will not have this side effect assuming a low dose and relatively short term of use - it was originally prescribed for burn victims but nowadays you can get it prescribed in regular clinics for heavy injuries too.

Oxandrolone is amazing. It's such a same there's a stigma around these substances because this particular one could improve so many lives.

Am I missing something? Is there a stigma around using prescription drugs? I mean, sure there is a stigma for bodybuilding - but this drug is used for a variety of medical things. In other words, it is already used to improve lives.

And it seems there is good reason to have it be a prescription: Some of the side effects aren't wonderful and it would seem reasonable to at least get regular blood tests if you are taking it. It is just benefits sometimes outweigh the risks.

There's a stigma against prescribing anabolic steroids, sort of like how there's a stigma against prescribing opioids. They are prescribed, but doctors are wary that patients might just want the gear and aren't suffering enough to warrant it.

A stigma in recreational sports too.

See it come across as "I got 2nd place in a men's triathlon. I found out the winner is on TRT, which is not allowed. How do I get them DQed so that I can rightly claim my medal?"

Which to me makes sense, but age groupers don't get any blood testing done, so it's a bit of a he-said she-said thing.

>As a result, when you end your cycle, your body needs to restart its natural test production. There can be a delay while this happens and it leads to unpleasant, though temporary, side effects, like weight gain and a loss of sexual appetite.

Why not just slowly taper it off?

Test is injected into muscles, usually once every 2-4 weeks. It can't be taken orally. This makes dosage control difficult. The long half-life also means that your body's control systems are slow to act (if they reacted quickly then you'd risk ending up with too much, and be unable to get rid of it).

There are plenty of other anabolic steroids. Some are oral, and many have the same primary effect with fewer side effects. There's even a new class of drugs that can work for women.[1]

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_androgen_receptor_mo...

IM injection is one of the best ways to get correct dosage control (apart from IV controlled delivery of course).

Also there are several steroids with different half-lives, so you can pick the best for your case.

It has been recently found that you can inject it subcutaneously using insulin needles, which makes taking it much easier. Works just as well as intramuscular.

more current test treatments are recommending much more frequent injections to more closely mimic the 'constant' production your body actually creates. Rather than injecting once a week, injecting multiple times a week eliminates a lot of the really highs and lows from injecting on schedules like you recommend.

The issue is compliance - nobody really wants to inject themselves every day or every other day.

I’m surprised that doctors are prescribing TRT, with testosterone enenthate, but then only having the patient inject once a week. That half-life is really sputtering out by the end of the week.

(Well, I know why—like you said, compliance. But c’mon, left cheek on Monday, right check on Thursday, easy enough.)

I think a lot of it has to do with Doctors relying on old knowledge and not investigating too closely.

Exogenous testosterone in any quantity will make the body stop producing natural test. If the goal is to have the body produce natural testosterone again tapering off will only delay and make it more difficult for that to happen.

There are a number of responses that don't make me comfortable.

The clearest reasoning for why anabolic or androgenic steroids' are NOT given in the context for recovery strength or function in a professional medical setting are that:

- it has unintended consequences that can be severe

- it has unintended consequences that can be long-lasting

- the expected consequences of use are more harmful than the regular recovery

- and that these can be quite harmful, enough that the use of AAS isn't necessary.

and finally the primary goal post surgical:

> One of the most important considerations in selecting operative versus nonoperative treatment is the risk of rerupture. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7031433/

Quite a few responses are getting into details of AAS use that isn't quite correct based on my understandings.

Anabolic steroids must be administered very carefully because they are part of a neuroendocrine feedback system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalamic%E2%80%93pituitary...

The hypothalamus releases GnRH which tells the hypophysis to stimulate the testicles. The hypophysis releases LH which tells the testicles to release testosterone.

If there's too much testosterone, the GnRH release of the hypothalamus is inhibited. If there's too little, it is stimulated. Through this mechanism, testosterone levels are regulated.

Introducing exogenous testosterone can seriously screw with this system. The extra testosterone causes negative feedback on GnRH and LH, decreasing or stopping natural testosterone production: hypogonadism.

Physical therapy does not have these risks and is effective at recovering functionality. Perhaps a specialist would use anabolic steroids in case physical therapy alone isn't enough.

Because your muscles, even in an atrophied state, will build back faster than the Achilles tear can heal (close) to 100%. Steroids don't make connective tissue grow faster/better/stronger.

not only that, but I remember reading while looking up stuff after an ACL tear that steroids would actually be counterproductive, in that the faster than expected growth of muscle would put more strain on the healing connective tissue and possibly cause reinjury.

We could. And it would be about as safe as much medicine that we use today. But like many drugs that could be useful... steroids === bad.

Or BPC 157.

Has anyone here used it? Or TB-500?

I have a tendon/pulley injury that doesn't seem to want to heal and I've been researching it. At least one relevant study.

There is one Dr. in my area (a gyno of all things) that has a website promoting his practice using it. So has at least a sheen of professionalism.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21030672/

I used both BPC-157 and TB-500 for a grade 4 SLAP tear. There are different surgeries used for SLAP tears, and I could not find a surgeon that would do the surgery I wanted (in the UK). I can't remember the exact details, but one is more risky and has a higher chance of returning to pre-surgery performance (normally athletes would take this option). The other is less risky but screws up your performance (general population usually get this option). I could only get surgeons to agree to the latter in the UK.

Anyway, I went and injected both the peptides for 15 weeks, and after over a year of having a completely messed up shoulder, it fixed it well enough that I can surf.

I was going to transfer to a US office to get the surgery done, but covid fucked up my transfer. I'll probably never compete in a powerlifting event again, but I can surf and that's good enough for me.

I injected 0.25mg of BPC-157 twice a day(near the shoulder) and 3mg of TB-500 every 3.5 days (into belly).

Disclaimer: not a doctor, just my experience. I bought them off random websites which in hindsight was insane. I was depressed and desperate. If you can get it from a real doctor/clinic, it would obviously be much better.

I also have a SLAP tear and would love to use BPC or something else to fix it, as I'm not going to have surgery. However, injecting a grey market research chemical I bought off the Internet into my body is just way, way outside my risk tolerance. I could I guess imagine imbibing a pill or powder..... direct injection when you don't really know what it is, it's not from a regulated supplier- just seems nuts to me, no offense

Haha, no offence taken. I 100% agree with you.

I too have used BPC/TB for fixing nagging injuries and it works great.

One thing to note -- you don't need to inject BPC at the site of the injury. Subcutaneous anywhere on the body works just as well. Your body will direct the peptides to the fibroblast (healing) areas where it is needed.

i'm happy for you! yes serious athletes have different goals there are for sure athlete specific surgeons in the US. Check out the Steadman Clinic if you haven't already.

Not sure if sourcing is illegal on HN. If you have any suggestions I can't tell what is legitimate online or not. or if this is not good I have an email in my profile if you are willing to share

What caused the SLAP tear?

Fell pretty hard while snowboarding.

I have tried both, for a nagging rugby-induced shoulder injury.

Nothing. Nada. No perceptible difference. I am…passingly acquainted…with injectable performance-enhancing drugs, and TB-500 and BPC-157 just did nothing for me.

Nor did they for a good friend. Now, that is a tiny sample size, and largely meaningless. (Did our supplier actually manage to get ahold of or synthesize a complex long-chain peptide? Shrug!) But there’s my 2 cents.

Yes the supply is my #1 concern / question. It doesn't seem like there is any downside risk so long as it's really the actual not contaminated peptides.

I used it once after I injured my shoulder doing straddle planches. I'm not sure exactly what was injured but it basically cured my shoulder overnight.

I wonder if either of these would work for a nagging tennis elbow? I'm 50 and I've tried pin-firing and it doesn't seem to have cleared it up.

BPC/TB worked great on my BJJ-induced golfer's elbow. I'd recommend giving it a shot!

Climber? I've had three pulley injuries and returned to sport. What, specifically, have you been doing to rehab it?

yup!! hang boarding, micro needling, some finger/arm exercises from PT.

i climbed seriously as a kid until like 22 ish. then didn't for 7 ish years. it's now close to 2 years back (sep 24). I think that's the main issue, my skill/strength is higher than my fingers. Though I'm still decently strong just have pain/days I can't do much and fingers are weak compared to what I used to have.

what about you?

I've been thinking of seeing if this local Dr. has any ideas, it sounds like you have to get the peptides injected near the injury which freaks me out. Don't mess with my fingers!

I did it and it worked wonders for my shoulder injury. Not giving you medical advice, but it's easy and not expensive so I would go for it if i were you.

And subcutaneous injections are so easy you dont even feel them, I pin daily every morning with my coffee and it takes me 20 seconds using a super-slim insulin needle.

A little off topic, but what is your goal with the micro needling? I thought that was a purely cosmetic procedure for things like acne scars, but now I'm wondering if I missed something.

It might not be the correct term, but my PT uses tiny needles and places them into my arm tendons (higher up). And then turns on electricity between the needles.

I know a lot of serious athletes swear by it and I definitely feel the effects.

It's hard to describe the sensation it doesn't hurt too much (though tapping into tight areas does hurt a bit). You can feel the change in how the tendon/whatever passes current when connected.

Like at first when really tight the finger doesn't really twitch but after a bit when it releases it goes wild.

Afterwards I'm weak for the afternoon and then feel looser after. I might equate it to an intenseness massage or Myofascial release treatment but highly specific for my inside the arm tendons.

I recommend it, but I would think only with an actual Doctorate PT.

i am not a climber but I had a pulley injury that didn't really go away until I got cortisone to kill the inflammation it was causing. But repeated cortisone shots is supposed to be bad for connective tissue.

That's what my actual Dr hand surgeon said. I'm getting an MRI in a few weeks, very very unlikely i have a full tear but I want to see if we can find something 'medium serious' that explains why I can't improve much with a year of PT.

well i can tell you mine healed after cortisone and I managed to not need surgery. But no matter how much PT/exercise/stretching I did up until the cortisone, nothing helped.

Within a few months of cortisone it felt great and didn't have mobility issues (I had scar tissue buildup that was cuasing trigger finger too) and now a year and a bit later its 100% functional with no pain and full mobility/range.

worth a try.

or hgh

BPC and TB are highly synergistic with HGH, so it's not really an either/or. Sermorelin+ipamorelin at night (HGH secretogogues) make the BPC/TB more effective and have the added nice effect of driving some fat loss/workout recovery, and are not crazy expensive like HGH is.

Both are good. I think HGH is the more interesting compound for soft tissue injuries (ligaments and such). I do BJJ and I will for sure use both to recover any major injury I get after having researched it and seen how pro BJJ folks do it with really good results.

E: I should add both compounds can have severe side effects. Testosterone cycles can destroy your natural test production and HGH can have undesirable side effects. It makes things grow indiscriminately so you really have to do it with good medical advice. There are ways to prevent and manage the negative side effects.

Ya. And it's probably worth pointing out that in the context of a recovery (say after a cast) that taking steriods and/or HGH will still require physical rehab, with even more doctor supervision. While it would probably lower the median time to "full recovery", it would probably also have significantly worse worst case outcomes, and still require significant work from the patient.

Edit: Oh and specifically for steroids - one of the things that -can- (dunno how frequent really) happen is that your muscle strength growth outgrows your connective tissue (such as your Achilles tendon) growth rate and you end up with more connective tissue damage. Maxing out your muscle growth rate might be the best strategy, especially when recovering from connective tissue damage.

Yeah, it is no panacea for sure. For me, I have been lifting for years, doing BJJ for years. Ran for almost two decades. I consider myself in pretty good shape for a random dude on the street. It all takes work. Especially with Rehab you really have to put in the rehab work to direct the healing and if you went with pharmaceuticals like we are discussing that becomes extra important. But I think at low, therapeutic dosage it is all really safe. On a 3 month cycle during injury recovery you are unlikely to grow muscle quickly enough to do any real damage either.

Look into BPC-157.