Fundamentalist religious societies often use the same line of reasoning: women are not allowed to walk around unveiled or allowed to do pretty much anything because they are powerless and ostensibly have to be protected from society as much as society needs to be protected from the unrest their public presence causes. The deeper "logic" here is that women are held responsible for the abuse they are provoking just by being around, and also that they're somehow not mature enough to handle themselves.

This is exactly the same reasoning as banning, say, black people on the grounds that they might cause unrest among KKK attendees who might be present.

In one line: this is the most insultingly stupid thing ever and it's happening not only in Texas but all over the world. I just wish it didn't happen in so-called free societies at all.

That is, once you've eat the cake, you can no longer hold it in your hands. It's (generally) used to refer to a situation where one stance or course of action (naturally) precludes another.

So I think I agree with you, but the actual wording is "who gets to make the decision matters" rather than "reasons matter".

That said, there are milder scenarios for discrimination and there are severe ones. This one is severe in its stupidity.

But honestly, it seems like you're just nitpicking here because you don't want chicks at your LAN party. Some of us find that pretty hateful.

If a "women's" gym is the closest to his house and has the equipment he uses (e.g. I didn't know treadmills were gender-specific) then why shouldn't a man go? His money's the same as anyone else's.

Just want to make sure people don't automatically leap on the BF3 link and blame the publisher or developer, when this appears to be a privately run event.

Old thread: http://www.powersgaming.com/showthread.php?742-Battlefield-3...

New thread: http://www.powersgaming.com/showthread.php?785-Battlefield-3...

If I was EA or DICE I would not be happy with this negative buzz about the game, especially as it makes BF3 players look pretty bad. (Or at least this group of them.)

My strategy, instead of excluding women, would be to make it a 21+ event (or maybe 18+), as well as kicking out anybody who doesn't abide by decency standards.

I think they probably figured out that that would mean kicking 99% of the LAN party out.

It's EA so I'm already boycotting it. :P

Just look at a site like Reddit (which probably is the same demographic as a LAN party). As soon as a women appears, the assholes come out.

What kind of person even wants to host an event for a bunch of immature teenage gamers who can't handle the presence of a female?

It is not uncommon for minorities in any group to be encouraged to show solidarity (women only events in tech for instance) while the same is frowned upon for the privileged majority.

This sort of behavior, particularly when used in what should otherwise be a safe space for a minority group traditionally excluded from society (young male gamers), serves only to exclude and already disadvantaged group.

Incidentally, do you also believe black men playing basketball (who often use language similar to gamers) are also bad human beings?

This is a tempest in a teapot for sure, but seriously, that's your concern here? The poor young male gamers?

I also like how yummyfajitas states that young male gamers have traditionally been excluded by society. I'm a geek. I grew up as a socially maladjusted "gamer," but I'm not blaming society for my own lack of social skills. Cry me a river.

(Note: not a hypothetical.)

Are they bad human beings for doing so?

Honestly, it sounds like you don't play basketball, and certainly not with said "black men". I recommend trying it - I think it would change your mind.

Also interesting to note: in my experience, in a mixed race group (e.g., in grad school), the smack talk will be toned down. The lone black guy will tone it down to fit in, just as I amp it up when I'm the lone white guy.

Lastly, please note: I'm not trying to portray trash talk as anything other than a harmless cultural practice which outsiders can be intolerant of.

Their female attendees have been harassed and disrespected. You need to understand that there is no such thing as an objective experience; context is the trump card every time. You don't feel threatened when someone trash talks or hazes you at a conference/tournament. Most women do feel threatened. It's up to us as a culture to decide which of those views is "reasonable". I prefer to consider both of them reasonable and search for a viable compromise.

So you're saying that white people playing basketball don't talk trash? Why would you even mention race and skin colour here?

And what is the culture of computer gaming of which you speak. The chances are that I've been gaming longer than you have, and while i recognise that there are certain juvenile elements who love shouting "cunt nigger i owned you" when playing, they do not represent gaming, and while they might be a feature of certain parts of gaming, they are, for the most part, denigrated and dismissed by their peers - not just women.

Are you a male gamer? It would be interesting to understand your clear bias here.

The only time I've ever observed it is when non-blacks play in a primarily black group. I admit I've never played basketball at the Harvard Club (and only a few times in a group which wasn't majority black), however, so I could be wrong on this.

I specifically mentioned race because I want to disambiguate behavior and membership in a protected class.

Specifically, if cosgroveb is being intellectually honest, he will criticize a protected class just as harshly as he criticizes low status male gamers for the same behavior. I suspect he isn't, however, and he will merely say "it isn't exactly the same" and instead attempt to lower the status of young male gamers and people he disagrees with.

As for my biases, I am male and I have games installed on my computer (I doubt I've played in the past year, however). I've never engaged in smack talk during video games, however - only during basketball.

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It appears that this ban is because the gender jokes there are targeted offensive. Otherwise, as hardcore gamers I doubt the girls would be offended after having spent time and known that such treatment is distributed uniformly. It is the isolating and targeting that hurts, if everyone got such treatment and you didn't you would be a different kind of hurt. A left out pitied pariah kind. Such a ban is just as offensive on a metalevel, being disallowed for my own good is telling me I am not strong enough to handle this and need rescuing. I suppose there must have been prior complaints but I would not be surprised if it was a small number and that the majority have their own coping mechanisms e.g knowing that those who would speak so despicably are not worth the effort to adjust your emotional state over.

Why say you've never played at the Harvard Club? I'm assuming that's some bastion of white male privilege. Is that the only place where white males play?

People who trash talk during gaming situations are often regarded as immature, juvenile dicks. If you're on a basketball court and you call me a cunt, I'm going to think you're a juvenile, immature, dick. If a black man calls me a cunt, I'm going to think he's a juvenile immature dick.

Why is this so hard to understand for you?

At my old martial arts school in NJ, you don't trash talk. You don't even need to call me a cunt to show disrespect, you simply need to fail to bow out. Should I assume you are a juvenile, immature dick if you fail to bow out after a soccer match? Of course not.

In much the same way, there are sporting events where witty banter about "yo momma" is considered acceptable behavior. No disrespect is intended, and none should be taken. It's just the culture of the game.

If you want to declare your particular set of conventions superior to all the others, be my guest.

No, but men are a supermajority among gamers, or in the tech community. That's what he was referring to.

We are talking about tech and gaming here. Are you seriously suggesting women are not minorities in either of those communities?

A non-human example of this is between humans and insects. If it was about non-power (numerical) then humans would be considered a minority on planet earth, but because humans have ways to take control over insects (urban fogging, bug spray, bug zappers) they are considered a 'minority' interest.

It isn't all about numbers, it's about power. A perhaps more real world example would be women on college campuses, still considered a minority, but typically have a 5 point advantage on men!

To be fair, those make me uncomfortable as well. But there's a difference between "we're holding an exclusive event for group X only" and "group Y is banned because they have to be protected from group X who we want to be our only audience". There is also the power gap to consider, whether it is real or perceived doesn't matter. Holding an event for the perceived "underdog" is a lot less reprehensible than accommodating the suppressive views of a (minor but) "dominant" group. Also in this case the implied conclusion that "might makes right" ticks a lot of people off.

The intention behind men-only events is to avoid having to support women in technology.

Define non-trivial in this context.

Cite some examples of female only gaming events.

People get up in arms about stuff like this because they're offended that people would so boldly exclude someone, but the key here is that it's a private event. Don't like it? Don't support them. Or, create your own private event with any rules you see fit.

As a nonreligious white male, I'm also excluded from minority scholarships, many religious private colleges, jobs with many religious organizations, being a waiter at Hooters, and plenty of other social groups, simply because of my personal beliefs or race or gender.

Women also can't join the Augusta National Golf Club (home of the Masters) for similar reasons as this, but I don't see that on the frontpage of HN.

This is a classic refrain of apologists for bigotry. I belong to a country club that officially excluded blacks up until the 60's, and did so unofficially for years after. The policy changed under pressure from the community, which included bad publicity, public embarrassment, and disdain directed at individual club members from people on the outside. Public scorn for the organization prevailed over the objections of assholes who said, "it's a private organization! Go make your own country club!".

Eventually, Augusta may repent of gender discrimination due to similar pressure. And it still won't make the front page of HN because it has nothing to do with computers.

What is, however, equally legal, is to be outraged about it and to make noise about it. They can hold their event, I can yell at them for doing so. Both legal, so I’m not exactly sure what your point is.

And your broader points are just plain wrong: doing bad things in private doesn't make it OK. Doing things that are legal doesn't make them moral. Getting "up in arms about stuff" that doesn't directly affect you doesn't mean your opinions shouldn't be voiced.

Edit: Did anyone downvoting me bother to read the article? This is exactly the reasoning they are using to ban women from this event.

Edit: Since we're getting pretty deep in the comments here and the timer is in effect... To joshuacc: I did miss that line. Looks like the parent here is right I didn't add anything to the discussion. Thanks!

I wonder if this party would so outwardly ban any black gamers from registering. Because it would be so, you know, uncomfortable to hear them being insulted.

I'm not sure if "or" is the right word there...