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Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by ipnon on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:46AM (#27957489)
TSMC is really the keystone for everything else done that ends up getting talked about on this website. They are constantly at the bleeding edge of computer manufacture and pushing it further still. We should feel some sense of amazement to be alive still in the middle of the computer revolution.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by grlass on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:08AM (#27957646)
Not to mention the people who design many of the machines that TSMC use in their plants: ASML.

"The mirrors guiding this light, made of sandwiched layers of silicon and molybdenum, are ground so precisely that, if scaled to the size of Germany, they would have no bumps bigger than a millimetre" <https://www.economist.com/business/2020/02/29/how-asml-becam...>

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by bschne on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:22AM (#27957732)
Extremely naive question, but I always wonder how you can "bootstrap" this kind of precision — intuitively for something to be this precise, the tools and equipment that "create" it should also have to be more or less equally precise.

Or is it a matter of manufacturing it, testing it, and rejecting some percentage of things that don't fit your requirements due to imprecisions?

Are there any good background resources on how some of these things are done?

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by symmetricsaurus on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:35AM (#27957828)
Take three somewhat flat stones to start out. Alternate rubbing the surfaces together in a random fashion. As you continue the high spots of the stones will be ground down and the surfaces will become flatter and flatter. In the end you can get very precise flat surfaces.

Two stones is not enough, you can then end up with two spherical surfaces. With three this isn't possible (imagine two of them are convex, when you rub them together they will grind eachother down and become less convex).

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by DougBTX on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:36AM (#27958192)
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by was_a_dev on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:55AM (#27959384)
That is, one plate remains stationary while the other is lapped against it, and then the opposite is performed

Is it a strict requirement that one plate remains stationary?

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by totalZero on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:55AM (#27960156)
In relative terms, one of the two plates remains stationary even if both are moving.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by Akronymus on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:53AM (#27958318)
Obligatory machine thinking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRnrn5DE58

Altough, I disagree with the "random fashion". Alternating the pairs AB -> BC -> CA seems more logical to me.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by reportingsjr on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:13AM (#27958456)
It is necessary to grind in a random fashion (OP is talking about the method of grinding, not the order), or you will end up with imperfections. Lots of info about this if you look in to grinding mirrors for telescopes.

Also, the order being random wouldn't effect the end result.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by openandshut on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:10AM (#27958907)
If it's a machine doing the grinding, what is the source of randomness?
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by dylan604 on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:24AM (#27960566)
function setPostion(float x=random(), float y=random()){}
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by datameta on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:55PM (#27966998)
I imagine the PRNG they use for this is a rather thorough implementation. Unless perhaps it is even necessary to used a cryptographic chip to generate true randomness.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by dylan604 on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:30PM (#27967236)
pseudocode my man, pseudocode. ignite the imagination, and let the reader run wild.

however, now my imagination is now running, and thinking about how overkill "true" random might be for this application. something "random" like an orbital sander would probably be enough. you're just trying to get away from side-to-side, left-circle, right-circle, up/down patterns. you're doing this to 3 different surfaces, so they would grind out any slight patterns which is the point. seems like a try crypto random would be as "effecient" as my roomba appears not to be.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by datameta on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @01:43PM (#27975285)
I suppose I went a bit overboard (no pun intended). 1 KB implementation should be more than enough for their precision.

Maybe some code then, instead: https://www.dwitter.net/d/20446

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by ruined on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:09AM (#27960353)
input
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by platz on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:30AM (#27959098)
When grinding the concave plate why didn't that make then other flat plate convex again?
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by wizzwizz4 on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:50AM (#27959321)
It did – but less so than the original was concave. By rubbing them together, you're effectively “averaging out” the convex / concavenesses.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by jlokier on Monday July 26, 2021 @02:07PM (#27962896)
As the sibling comment explains, it does make the other flat plate convex, but by a smaller amount. Their shapes sort of average out.

I'll add that this depends on the materials having similar properties, so when ground together, they are grinding each other. This means whatever residual shape you have in one of them, it won't be transferred completely to the other.

If the materials had very different hardnesses, one of them would dominate over the other when they're ground together.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by etrautmann on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:25AM (#27960593)
or a long-form textbook on the foundations of mechanical accuracy. Someone linked to this a year ago and I found it a fascinating deep dive:

https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/15_Mfrs_Publications/M...

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by Lev1a on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:32AM (#27957801)
From what I've seen as an amateur that is yet fascinated by mechanical engineering: iteratively work up to the precision limits with your current methods then try to find/research a (slightly) better way of measuring and/or manufacturing. Since humanity has worked up to this point over centuries/millenia, you wouldn't need to "bootstrap" it from the beginning anymore, just choose the appropriate level of (manufacturing/measuring) precision for your usecase. Otherwise start with a surface plate.

Nice summary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRnrn5DE58 ("Origins of Precision" by "Machine Thinking")

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by _pmf_ on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:26AM (#27959050)
This is a beautiful video!
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by nudgeee on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:30AM (#27957786)
On a very high level, a good place to start is on Metrology — the science of measurement [0].

Test, measurement and calibration equipment for new technologies (think 5G/UWB, mmWave, even up to CERN LHC) can be right on the cutting edge of technology. Companies who specialize in these areas tend to have large budgets on research and commercialization.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrology

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by throw0101a on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:01AM (#27959439)
> Are there any good background resources on how some of these things are done?

For a cultural history of precision see The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World by Simon Winchester:

* https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35068671-the-perfectioni...

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvOEcyYsiHc

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by Robotbeat on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @12:46AM (#27968741)
Yup, seconded. I was going to recommend that book.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by ashergill on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:34AM (#27957817)
You might enjoy this video, 'Origins of Precision'. https://youtu.be/gNRnrn5DE58
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by dataflow on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:40AM (#27957860)
> intuitively for something to be this precise, the tools and equipment that "create" it should also have to be more or less equally precise.

Very reasonable assumption that I used to have too. (Un?)fortunately it's also wrong, or at best, incomplete. :-) e.g., maybe you don't have the technology to make precisely straight lines, but if you can make a flat surface (like paper), then you can fold it in half and get a straight line. Then fold that in half and get a pretty-close-to-90-degree angle.

I also vaguely recall that feedback can increase precision in a system... like you can get 2% accuracy with a circuit that has only 5%-accurate resistors by using feedback (or something along those lines). Unfortunately I no longer recall how this is done. I just remember my mind was blown when I learned it.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by rosetremiere on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:28AM (#27957778)
Look at the «Whitworth three plate method». As far as I understand, it should allow a «gain» in precision.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by samus on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:15AM (#27960435)
You mention it already - bootstrapping. Always optimising, always correcting for yet another flaw in materials, processing, environmental conditions, quality control and usage procedures. Usually, it is helpful that there are multiple ways to do a particular thing that can be used to calibrate each other. Also, there are physical processes that can produce high-quality surface finishes that can be used for calibration tasks, for example by splitting crystals. The resulting shapes are dependent on the crystal lattice, and improvements in material purity reduce any irregularities.

A more general approach is to understand measurement as a process where a minute signal has to be amplified to be more easily evaluated. There are many such methods.

In the case of surface metrology, Coherence scanning interferometry is such a method which uses the properties of interfering light waves to directly visualize surface anomalies as bands of lights. Another, more direct method is to drag a stylus across the surface and to amplify variations in position. Sort of like a turntable does.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by magicalhippo on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:42AM (#27959962)
On a related note, there's the powerful technique of doing things in a way where the factor(s) that are difficult to measure or control cancel out.

Examples of this is the device[1] used for the redefined kilogram[2], LIGO[3] and many others.

[1]: https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/kilogram-kibble-balance

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_redefinition_of_the_SI_ba...

[3]: https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/LA/page/faq (first question)

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by selimthegrim on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:55AM (#27958780)
Simon Winchester's book "The Perfectionists" [1] is a good popular level intro to Maudsley, Whitworth et al.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Exactly-Precision-Engineers-Created-M...

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by selimthegrim on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:02AM (#27960244)
NB: I guess he changed the title to Exactly for the paperback release.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by imtringued on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:41AM (#27958229)
>Extremely naive question, but I always wonder how you can "bootstrap" this kind of precision — intuitively for something to be this precise, the tools and equipment that "create" it should also have to be more or less equally precise.

You can build a machine like that and most machines are built like that because simply reproducing the precision that is already in the machine is cheaper than building a complex intelligent system that knows how to compensate for flaws in precision. Think about how many 3d printers do auto leveling in software rather than simply make the bed perpendicular to the print head by hand. Those old manual milling machines and lathes didn't have all that fancy software so they simply reproduced their own flaws.

Well, given a smart enough human he can compensate for the flaws in the tools and get to a higher degree of precision.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by baybal2 on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:41AM (#27958231)
> Extremely naive question, but I always wonder how you can "bootstrap" this kind of precision

Scraping https://www.toyoda.com/news-events/rpd-blog-the-importance-o...

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by vijayr02 on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:30AM (#27958580)
Looks like countries are the intuitive units to capture deviations at this level of scale. From NASA's web page about the mirrors in the James Webb telescope [0]:

"That means if the continental United States was polished smooth to the same tolerances, the entire country – from Maine to California – would not vary in thickness by just over two inches!"

Given the US is roughly 27 times the area of Germany, looks like semiconductor manufacturing requires roughly double the accuracy of space telescopes (1 mm * 27 is slightly more than 1 inch)

[0] https://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/webb-craft.h...

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by apendleton on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:25PM (#27964140)
Hm, I think the magnitude in the z direction would scale with the magnitude in the x direction or the y direction, rather than with the area (x*y), right?
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by sdiepend on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:57AM (#27959407)
And don't forget to mention imec in Leuven where lot's research and development gets done for ASML: https://www.imec-int.com/en/about-us https://www.imec-int.com/en/infrastructure
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by NicoJuicy on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:10AM (#27957662)
You forget Imec in Belgium, which does a lot of the R&D in semiconductors.

I suspect lot of the production facilities would want to be near them.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-07-13/u-s-and-c...

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by cma on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:00AM (#27960226)
Don't forget DARPA, DoE, and US semiconductor industry funding EUV LLC in the 90s:

https://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/1997/CN0911...

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by Animats on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:35PM (#27965092)
Nobody has yet come up with a better approach to generating focused soft X-rays than that tin plasma nightmare. The "light source" today is the size of a 3-story house to get 250W on target. One of the main reasons wafer fabs now cost so much.

There must be a better way.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by baybal2 on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:28PM (#27965736)
> The "light source" today is the size of a 3-story house to get 250W on target. One of the main reasons wafer fabs now cost so much.

Yes, EUV machines are said to increase fab electricity consumption few times over, over regular UV steppers.

> There must be a better way.

The better way may well be worse. The alternative proposal is to build the whole fab around a synchrotron.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by Animats on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:45PM (#27965890)
There are several "tabletop synchrotron" projects, but as yet none with the right output for an IC fab. Hopefully someone will solve this problem.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by baybal2 on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:48PM (#27965911)
Synchrotrons would not be better by much. Efficiencies will still be just above single digits, which still means multimegawatt light sources.

That's still better than tens of megawatt light sources.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by ineedasername on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:50AM (#27959312)
That's a good start, but ASML may want to call in Rick [0] on this one to go a little further

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQoRfieZJxI

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by sveme on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:45AM (#27958694)
Those mirrors (like all of ASML's optics) are actually developed and made by Carl Zeiss. And the lasers come from Trumpf.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by arwhatever on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:33PM (#27962364)
How big would the bumps be if the layers were scaled to the size of Texas? :-)
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by LargoLasskhyfv on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @11:44AM (#27973782)
Don't know about TX, but somewhere there was a comparison like that if the mirror would be laid over Germany. Was under a mm IIRC.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by lispm on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:27AM (#27957765)
and ASML works together with Trumpf (lasers) and Zeiss (optics).
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by quakeguy on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:40AM (#27959222)
And the silicon ingots come from Wacker-Chemie.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by tester34 on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:49AM (#27957513)
Overall semiconducting industry seems to be way more exciting than boring computer industry
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by artemonster on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:10AM (#27957661)
ha! I guess you haven't worked as a designer or verification engineer, designing chips then? let me tell you: you work with a commitee-designed c++ like abomination language with 300 non-composible keywords that make no freaking sense. all of that crap grew from legacy-upon-legacy of crutches as an attempt to fix the goddamn broken-by-design verilog. Ultimately, this craplanguage + library that is 90% non-debuggable macros, works only with ~3 vendor simulators (all 3 would do different stuff on big designs and you are locked almost forever). When you simulate you designs, most of external components would be either encrypted blackboxes or be calling "magic" functions (called system tasks) that are absultely opaque to you and do some global side-effects. All of this multiplied by the fact that every statement is executed in parallel in your huge design and evolves in time. Oh, did I mention how crappy the actual tools are? Think of 90's era with outdated and moronic UI/UX, some poorely integrated quasi-TCL interpreter for configuration & ability to crash that tool in <3 clicks. Ah, you will be paying 15kUSD/year per license, thank you very much. You will be needing lots of them (> 50).
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by Heliosmaster on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:22AM (#27957736)
Or working with a 40M Loc codebase started in the 80s with 50% code duplication. Because it's so mission critical that nobody really touches existing code. Or that everything needs to be rubber-stamped by a ton of people and even a rename takes months to make it in the codebase. Oh well. That's probably every enterprise
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by tralarpa on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:42AM (#27957867)
As somebody without any experience in that field: When you say "codebase", what is that? Is it code describing circuit blocks (e.g. an ALU) that is reused in different projects or is it code for the tools that you use? (in-house tools, plugins for commercial tools, etc.)
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by Heliosmaster on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:07AM (#27958426)
There are several machines required to make a chip, and many steps involved. Those machines are crazy complex and accurate (i remember having a precision of around 3 atoms of silicon, femtometer scale). I meant firmware fot these machines, in general. Crazy complex (and amazing) tools with complex software
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by ineedasername on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:18AM (#27959633)
That's probably every enterprise

Yep, pretty much any industry or individual organization that's been around for 40 years will have decades-old cruft complicating attempts to make changes. That's why it's good to have some sort of skunkworks unit as well.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by spaniard89277 on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:22AM (#27957735)
Hmmm, isn't there people pushing for better standards, language, tools?
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by artemonster on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:32AM (#27957793)
there are some developments, but mostly you would get new additional tool on top of existing stack, rather than a new stack.

Problem 1. patents. in early FOSS days people got momentum to push hard for corporations to give up compiler patents and other obvious nonsense and let GCC flourish. same situation is here in hardware, the very idea of simulating circuits is a mine field of patents and you'd be sued out of existence.

Problem 2. features. there are a lot of features that you need to push out a working chip into an existence. open source tools or alternatives are SO far behind that they cannot be used or can be used only on something really small.

Problem 3. verification. there are no (VIABLE! that python coco stuff doesnt count!) open-source alternatives to UVM (uvm as a library is open source, but there are either no simulators that can run it). If we had some of the older verificaion languages to go open source (like specman, vera), maybe we had a chance.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by adwn on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:16AM (#27959619)
> the very idea of simulating circuits is a mine field of patents and you'd be sued out of existence.

Doesn't that apply to basically every kind of software? How's it different for HDL simulation software?

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by artemonster on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:46AM (#27960023)
the point is that for FOSS there was an active movement that forced IBM and old megacorps to forfeit such "nonsense" patents. So if you roll out a brand new c++ compiler you may have some buffs with intel if you try to go to their turf about some propreitary x64 specific optimizations, but, say, IBM wouldnt sue you because you dared to create "a program/method of transforming source code into machine code" that violated 250 patents from their portfolio.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by adwn on Monday July 26, 2021 @12:47PM (#27961691)
I get that, but you wrote:

> the very idea of simulating circuits is a mine field of patents and you'd be sued out of existence

Do you think a startup selling a new HDL simulator is any more at risk of getting sued than any other software-based startup?

Not trying to be combative, I'm genuinely curious.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by artemonster on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:03PM (#27961936)
Yes. Happened twice? already
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by adwn on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:53PM (#27962664)
Really? Wow! Do you happen to remember their names?
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by artemonster on Monday July 26, 2021 @02:17PM (#27963073)
one remember - "magma automation". they were sued to pieces and then bought out
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by adwn on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:01PM (#27963760)
Thanks!

According to their Wikipedia page, they paid 12.5 M$ to settle in 2007 and continued to operate for another 4 years before being bought for half a billion USD. Not exactly what I would consider "sued to pieces" ;-)

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by Heliosmaster on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:28AM (#27957777)
Yes there is. But moving at enterprise speeds. Python considered "new" and young. Codebases are 30 to 40 years old
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by Ericson2314 on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:46AM (#27960019)
https://clash-lang.org/ http://www.clifford.at/yosys/

I am hoping we can start proving many if the things they brute-force model check today, too.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by m1kal on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:43PM (#27976683)
From FPGA design point of view SystemVerilog is OK. I think it gives high enough level of abstraction to create even complex systems. It can also be readable after some years if care is taken to keep the code clean.

But I believe we need LISPy syntax - mainly for simplicity, also for easier parsing and static analysis. I think LISP is a natural way to describe data flow. Unfortunately none of the attempts to write functional synthesizable code that I found so far make the code simpler.

BTW I'm preparing a talk on simplifying RTL code. Can I cite some of your posts in this thread?

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by lordnacho on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:05AM (#27958409)
What's the compensation / benefits / work-life balance like?
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by iancmceachern on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @12:47AM (#27968747)
My experience in this industry is that it pays well, good benefits, but it ebbs and flows much like the defense industry with large boom times and slower times with large layoffs.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by dataflow on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:48AM (#27957902)
Any thoughts on Chisel?
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by artemonster on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:41AM (#27958227)
as much as it pains to say me, but IMO its a wasted effort. we don't need new design languages. VHDL/Verilog "pain points" as RTL are tiny and don't require solving, we pretty much figured out design. Verification, on the other hand, is still an evolving (now stagnating) mess that needs inputs.

The biggest offender on that project list is FIRRTL. Cleary outgrew as someone's university work of "hey, lets do IR, but for RTL" without knowing anything of the industry, tools, etc. At best you can do the same with one reduced canonical simplified verilog source-to-source translation. at worst it does not do the primary function of "being" IR for RTL, because it should've been a graph, not another language with simplified syntax.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by GregarianChild on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:40AM (#27958648)
Chisel's being hooked into the Java / Scala tool chain give makes setting up automated verification pipelines much easier:

- You can use SBT or MVM to pull in dependencies

- You can wrap up designs as .jar files

- Powerful testing tools like QuickCheck come ready made

None of the above is rocket science, but simply by being there things become easier.

   without knowing anything of the 
   industry, tools,
It's pretty difficult for a student to find out about what is actually used in industry. The semi industry's secrecy doesn't help. But software and hardware people really don't even have a shared language, and misunderstand each other's abilities and pain points. The very term "verification" is understood quite differently between the different communities.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by ekiwi on Monday July 26, 2021 @02:04PM (#27962829)
> At best you can do the same with one reduced canonical simplified verilog source-to-source translation.

Parsing Verilog and generating valid Verilog is fairly difficult. If you want to stay with Verilog, the most realistic alternative to firrtl right now is the RTL-IL representation used inside of yosys.

> at worst it does not do the primary function of "being" IR for RTL, because it should've been a graph, not another language with simplified syntax.

Canonicalized LoFirrtl (i.e., the representation the compiler lowers Chisel to) is essentially SSA (single static assignment) which encodes a dataflow DAG. So on a per module level, firrtl does represent the circuit as a graph.

What you might be talking about is the fact that this graph isn't global. Having a global circuit graph could make some analyses easier, but it might require essentially in-lining the whole circuit which is something a lot of designers are opposed to. Even small optimizations like removing unused pins from internal modules are often times opposed.

Chris Lattner and others are currently working on an "industry" version of firrtl as part of the CIRCT hardware compiler framework: https://github.com/llvm/circt As you can see they did not decide to go with a global graph based IR and instead opted to just represent local data-flow graphs as SSA.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by thehappypm on Monday July 26, 2021 @02:15PM (#27963031)
I've worked on hard science problems and while it's more bleeding edge it's all very, very slow moving. You're not shipping anything in less than a year, max. And that's OK. It's just very glacial and you go VERY deep into the topic.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by baybal2 on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:21AM (#27957728)
Pure sarcasm, but no :)

> Overall semiconducting industry seems to be way more exciting than boring computer industry

The most groundbreaking things all tech must be about are cat video websites, and internet companies :D

People completely forget that were Morris Chang (the previous CEO of TSMC,) not been polite, and ethical to a fault, the industry would've still be dominated by monster big semis, manufacturing every chip around, and who would've milked all big chip users like internet companies to death.

I can't imagine Panasonic, Toshiba, Motorola, or AMD of old not scheming to squeezing their clients to the last cent, and strategizing to prevent clients from gaining negotiating power.

TSMC's benevolent stance in comparison to that would be almost bordering on charity.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by openandshut on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:58AM (#27958798)
>still in the middle of the computer revolution Are you implying it will end? Either Moore's law leveling off or an externality (unrest/war/climate change) that ends it?