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Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by grlass on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:08AM (#27957646)
Not to mention the people who design many of the machines that TSMC use in their plants: ASML.

"The mirrors guiding this light, made of sandwiched layers of silicon and molybdenum, are ground so precisely that, if scaled to the size of Germany, they would have no bumps bigger than a millimetre" <https://www.economist.com/business/2020/02/29/how-asml-becam...>

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by bschne on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:22AM (#27957732)
Extremely naive question, but I always wonder how you can "bootstrap" this kind of precision — intuitively for something to be this precise, the tools and equipment that "create" it should also have to be more or less equally precise.

Or is it a matter of manufacturing it, testing it, and rejecting some percentage of things that don't fit your requirements due to imprecisions?

Are there any good background resources on how some of these things are done?

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by symmetricsaurus on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:35AM (#27957828)
Take three somewhat flat stones to start out. Alternate rubbing the surfaces together in a random fashion. As you continue the high spots of the stones will be ground down and the surfaces will become flatter and flatter. In the end you can get very precise flat surfaces.

Two stones is not enough, you can then end up with two spherical surfaces. With three this isn't possible (imagine two of them are convex, when you rub them together they will grind eachother down and become less convex).

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by DougBTX on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:36AM (#27958192)
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by was_a_dev on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:55AM (#27959384)
That is, one plate remains stationary while the other is lapped against it, and then the opposite is performed

Is it a strict requirement that one plate remains stationary?

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by totalZero on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:55AM (#27960156)
In relative terms, one of the two plates remains stationary even if both are moving.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by Akronymus on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:53AM (#27958318)
Obligatory machine thinking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRnrn5DE58

Altough, I disagree with the "random fashion". Alternating the pairs AB -> BC -> CA seems more logical to me.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by reportingsjr on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:13AM (#27958456)
It is necessary to grind in a random fashion (OP is talking about the method of grinding, not the order), or you will end up with imperfections. Lots of info about this if you look in to grinding mirrors for telescopes.

Also, the order being random wouldn't effect the end result.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by openandshut on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:10AM (#27958907)
If it's a machine doing the grinding, what is the source of randomness?
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by dylan604 on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:24AM (#27960566)
function setPostion(float x=random(), float y=random()){}
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by datameta on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:55PM (#27966998)
I imagine the PRNG they use for this is a rather thorough implementation. Unless perhaps it is even necessary to used a cryptographic chip to generate true randomness.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by dylan604 on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:30PM (#27967236)
pseudocode my man, pseudocode. ignite the imagination, and let the reader run wild.

however, now my imagination is now running, and thinking about how overkill "true" random might be for this application. something "random" like an orbital sander would probably be enough. you're just trying to get away from side-to-side, left-circle, right-circle, up/down patterns. you're doing this to 3 different surfaces, so they would grind out any slight patterns which is the point. seems like a try crypto random would be as "effecient" as my roomba appears not to be.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by datameta on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @01:43PM (#27975285)
I suppose I went a bit overboard (no pun intended). 1 KB implementation should be more than enough for their precision.

Maybe some code then, instead: https://www.dwitter.net/d/20446

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by ruined on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:09AM (#27960353)
input
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by platz on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:30AM (#27959098)
When grinding the concave plate why didn't that make then other flat plate convex again?
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by wizzwizz4 on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:50AM (#27959321)
It did – but less so than the original was concave. By rubbing them together, you're effectively “averaging out” the convex / concavenesses.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by jlokier on Monday July 26, 2021 @02:07PM (#27962896)
As the sibling comment explains, it does make the other flat plate convex, but by a smaller amount. Their shapes sort of average out.

I'll add that this depends on the materials having similar properties, so when ground together, they are grinding each other. This means whatever residual shape you have in one of them, it won't be transferred completely to the other.

If the materials had very different hardnesses, one of them would dominate over the other when they're ground together.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by etrautmann on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:25AM (#27960593)
or a long-form textbook on the foundations of mechanical accuracy. Someone linked to this a year ago and I found it a fascinating deep dive:

https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/15_Mfrs_Publications/M...

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by Lev1a on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:32AM (#27957801)
From what I've seen as an amateur that is yet fascinated by mechanical engineering: iteratively work up to the precision limits with your current methods then try to find/research a (slightly) better way of measuring and/or manufacturing. Since humanity has worked up to this point over centuries/millenia, you wouldn't need to "bootstrap" it from the beginning anymore, just choose the appropriate level of (manufacturing/measuring) precision for your usecase. Otherwise start with a surface plate.

Nice summary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRnrn5DE58 ("Origins of Precision" by "Machine Thinking")

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by _pmf_ on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:26AM (#27959050)
This is a beautiful video!
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by nudgeee on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:30AM (#27957786)
On a very high level, a good place to start is on Metrology — the science of measurement [0].

Test, measurement and calibration equipment for new technologies (think 5G/UWB, mmWave, even up to CERN LHC) can be right on the cutting edge of technology. Companies who specialize in these areas tend to have large budgets on research and commercialization.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrology

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by throw0101a on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:01AM (#27959439)
> Are there any good background resources on how some of these things are done?

For a cultural history of precision see The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World by Simon Winchester:

* https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35068671-the-perfectioni...

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvOEcyYsiHc

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by Robotbeat on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @12:46AM (#27968741)
Yup, seconded. I was going to recommend that book.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by ashergill on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:34AM (#27957817)
You might enjoy this video, 'Origins of Precision'. https://youtu.be/gNRnrn5DE58
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by dataflow on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:40AM (#27957860)
> intuitively for something to be this precise, the tools and equipment that "create" it should also have to be more or less equally precise.

Very reasonable assumption that I used to have too. (Un?)fortunately it's also wrong, or at best, incomplete. :-) e.g., maybe you don't have the technology to make precisely straight lines, but if you can make a flat surface (like paper), then you can fold it in half and get a straight line. Then fold that in half and get a pretty-close-to-90-degree angle.

I also vaguely recall that feedback can increase precision in a system... like you can get 2% accuracy with a circuit that has only 5%-accurate resistors by using feedback (or something along those lines). Unfortunately I no longer recall how this is done. I just remember my mind was blown when I learned it.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by rosetremiere on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:28AM (#27957778)
Look at the «Whitworth three plate method». As far as I understand, it should allow a «gain» in precision.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by samus on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:15AM (#27960435)
You mention it already - bootstrapping. Always optimising, always correcting for yet another flaw in materials, processing, environmental conditions, quality control and usage procedures. Usually, it is helpful that there are multiple ways to do a particular thing that can be used to calibrate each other. Also, there are physical processes that can produce high-quality surface finishes that can be used for calibration tasks, for example by splitting crystals. The resulting shapes are dependent on the crystal lattice, and improvements in material purity reduce any irregularities.

A more general approach is to understand measurement as a process where a minute signal has to be amplified to be more easily evaluated. There are many such methods.

In the case of surface metrology, Coherence scanning interferometry is such a method which uses the properties of interfering light waves to directly visualize surface anomalies as bands of lights. Another, more direct method is to drag a stylus across the surface and to amplify variations in position. Sort of like a turntable does.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by magicalhippo on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:42AM (#27959962)
On a related note, there's the powerful technique of doing things in a way where the factor(s) that are difficult to measure or control cancel out.

Examples of this is the device[1] used for the redefined kilogram[2], LIGO[3] and many others.

[1]: https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/kilogram-kibble-balance

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_redefinition_of_the_SI_ba...

[3]: https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/LA/page/faq (first question)

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by selimthegrim on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:55AM (#27958780)
Simon Winchester's book "The Perfectionists" [1] is a good popular level intro to Maudsley, Whitworth et al.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Exactly-Precision-Engineers-Created-M...

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by selimthegrim on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:02AM (#27960244)
NB: I guess he changed the title to Exactly for the paperback release.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by imtringued on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:41AM (#27958229)
>Extremely naive question, but I always wonder how you can "bootstrap" this kind of precision — intuitively for something to be this precise, the tools and equipment that "create" it should also have to be more or less equally precise.

You can build a machine like that and most machines are built like that because simply reproducing the precision that is already in the machine is cheaper than building a complex intelligent system that knows how to compensate for flaws in precision. Think about how many 3d printers do auto leveling in software rather than simply make the bed perpendicular to the print head by hand. Those old manual milling machines and lathes didn't have all that fancy software so they simply reproduced their own flaws.

Well, given a smart enough human he can compensate for the flaws in the tools and get to a higher degree of precision.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by baybal2 on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:41AM (#27958231)
> Extremely naive question, but I always wonder how you can "bootstrap" this kind of precision

Scraping https://www.toyoda.com/news-events/rpd-blog-the-importance-o...

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by vijayr02 on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:30AM (#27958580)
Looks like countries are the intuitive units to capture deviations at this level of scale. From NASA's web page about the mirrors in the James Webb telescope [0]:

"That means if the continental United States was polished smooth to the same tolerances, the entire country – from Maine to California – would not vary in thickness by just over two inches!"

Given the US is roughly 27 times the area of Germany, looks like semiconductor manufacturing requires roughly double the accuracy of space telescopes (1 mm * 27 is slightly more than 1 inch)

[0] https://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/webb-craft.h...

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by apendleton on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:25PM (#27964140)
Hm, I think the magnitude in the z direction would scale with the magnitude in the x direction or the y direction, rather than with the area (x*y), right?
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by sdiepend on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:57AM (#27959407)
And don't forget to mention imec in Leuven where lot's research and development gets done for ASML: https://www.imec-int.com/en/about-us https://www.imec-int.com/en/infrastructure
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by NicoJuicy on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:10AM (#27957662)
You forget Imec in Belgium, which does a lot of the R&D in semiconductors.

I suspect lot of the production facilities would want to be near them.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-07-13/u-s-and-c...

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by cma on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:00AM (#27960226)
Don't forget DARPA, DoE, and US semiconductor industry funding EUV LLC in the 90s:

https://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/1997/CN0911...

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by Animats on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:35PM (#27965092)
Nobody has yet come up with a better approach to generating focused soft X-rays than that tin plasma nightmare. The "light source" today is the size of a 3-story house to get 250W on target. One of the main reasons wafer fabs now cost so much.

There must be a better way.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by baybal2 on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:28PM (#27965736)
> The "light source" today is the size of a 3-story house to get 250W on target. One of the main reasons wafer fabs now cost so much.

Yes, EUV machines are said to increase fab electricity consumption few times over, over regular UV steppers.

> There must be a better way.

The better way may well be worse. The alternative proposal is to build the whole fab around a synchrotron.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by Animats on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:45PM (#27965890)
There are several "tabletop synchrotron" projects, but as yet none with the right output for an IC fab. Hopefully someone will solve this problem.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by baybal2 on Monday July 26, 2021 @05:48PM (#27965911)
Synchrotrons would not be better by much. Efficiencies will still be just above single digits, which still means multimegawatt light sources.

That's still better than tens of megawatt light sources.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by ineedasername on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:50AM (#27959312)
That's a good start, but ASML may want to call in Rick [0] on this one to go a little further

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQoRfieZJxI

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by sveme on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:45AM (#27958694)
Those mirrors (like all of ASML's optics) are actually developed and made by Carl Zeiss. And the lasers come from Trumpf.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by arwhatever on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:33PM (#27962364)
How big would the bumps be if the layers were scaled to the size of Texas? :-)
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by LargoLasskhyfv on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @11:44AM (#27973782)
Don't know about TX, but somewhere there was a comparison like that if the mirror would be laid over Germany. Was under a mm IIRC.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by lispm on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:27AM (#27957765)
and ASML works together with Trumpf (lasers) and Zeiss (optics).
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by quakeguy on Monday July 26, 2021 @09:40AM (#27959222)
And the silicon ingots come from Wacker-Chemie.