lispm
They use the "language server" model since a long time, before Microsoft's LSP existed. Thus the need isn't really there, unless one wants to develop with Microsoft products (or similar) and get the needed extensions for Lisp into those Microsoft driven standards. If there were a real need and a real benefit, there would be some better adoption on the Lisp side.
I used IDEs also all the time. Makes sense to me.
> Anyway, I'm done here. This site is full of toxic people who are offended that someone doesn't choose the same editor and habits that they do, and any dissent is to be punished.
Yeah, that's weird. You can use all kinds of editors you like. In the case of Lisp, there are arguments that good support for editing Lisp and for interaction with a Lisp runtime is useful (since Lisp is often used interactively). But several IDEs and editors can do that.
Just wanted to give you the impression that are others, who like IDEs and similar tools. ;-)
Files are versioned. The Lisp machine file system has versions (same for DEC VMS and a few other file systems). Nowadays the file version is attached to the name&type. Thus editing a file and saving it creates a new file with the same name&type and an updated version number. I can edit/load/compile/open/... files by specifying its version number. If there is no version number specified, the newest file version is used.
A site shared a namespace server with system registry and several file servers.
Code, documentation, etc. is defined as a system, similar to what ASDF does. A system has major and minor version numbers and other attributes (like being experimental or being released). Each time one does a full compile on a system, the major version gets updated and it tracks which file versions it used for that compilation. Whenever one creates a patch (a change of the sources), the minor version gets updated. After 12 full compiles and 30 patches to the latest version we have system FOOBAR 12.30.
Now I can use that system FOOBAR in another Lisp and "Load System FOOBAR :version Newest" -> This will load FOOBAR 12.30 into its runtime. Then new patches appear in the system. I can then say "Load Patches FOOBAR" and it will look into the system directory for new patches to the current loaded major version and load those patches one by one. This changes the running Lisp. It then knows that it has loaded, say, FOOBAR 12.45, what files it has loaded and in which files the respective code (functions, ...) are located.
If I want to ship a system to the customer or someone else, I might tag it as released and create a distribution (with sources, documentation or not). The distribution is a file (also possibly a tape, a bunch of floppy disks, a CDROM, or similar). A distribution can contain one or more systems and its files (in several versions). On another Lisp I can later restore the distribution or parts of it. The restored systems then can be loaded for a specific version. For example I can load a released system version and then load patches for it.
A saved image knows which versions of what systems it includes. It also knows which functions sources are where. It may also have corresponding documentation versions loaded.
Later a source versioning system (called VC) was added, but I haven't used that.
A Lisp image would then know/track which versions of what code it has loaded/compiled/... Version information would be stored with the other source files.
In the CL world it is usually relatively easy to create an executable. For example in SBCL I would just run SBCL and then save an image and say that it should be an executable. That's basically it. The resulting executable
* is already native compiled, since SBCL always compiles native -> all code is AOT compiled to machine code
* includes all code and data, thus there is nothing special to do, to change code for it -> the code runs without changes
* includes all the SBCL tools (compiler, repl, disassembler, code loader, ...) thus it can be used to develop with it -> the code can be still "dynamic" for further changes
* it starts fast
Thus I don't need a special VM or special tool to create an executable and/or AOT compiled code. It's built-in in SBCL.
The first drawback: the resulting executable is as large as the original SBCL was plus any additional code.
But for many use cases that's what we want: a fast starting Lisp, which includes everything precompiled.
Now it gets messy:
In the real world (TM) things might be more complicated:
* we want the executable to be smaller
* we want to get rid of debug information
* we need to include libraries written in other languages
* we want faster / more efficient execution at runtime
* we need to deliver the Lisp code&data as a shared library
* we need an executable with tuned garbage collector or without GC
* the delivery structure can be more complex (-> macOS application bundles for multiple architectures)
* we want to deliver for platforms which provide restrictions (-> iOS/Apple for example doesn't let us include a native code compiler in the executable, if we want to ship it via the Appstore)
* we want the code&data be delivered for an embedded application
That's in the CL world usually called delivery -> creating an delivered application that can be shipped to the customer (whoever that is).
This was (and is) typically where commercial CL implementations (nowadays Allegro CL and LispWorks) have extensive tooling for. A delivered LispWorks application may start at around 7MB size, depending on the platform. But there are also special capabilities of ECL (Embeddable Common Lisp). Additionally there were (and still are) specialized CL implementations, embedded in applications or which are used as a special purpose compiler. For example some of the PTC Creo CAD systems use their own CL implementation (based on a ancestor implementation of ECL), run several million lines of Lisp code and expose it to the user as an extension language.
That may be. ABCL is running on the host system and can reuse it, but it aims to be a full implementation of Common Lisp, not a blend of a subset of Lisp plus the host runtime. For example one would expect the full Common Lisp numerics.
One of its purposes is to be able to run portable Common Lisp code on the JVM. Like Maxima or like bootstrapping the SBCL system.
There is a bit more about the interop in the repository and in the manual:
What were those reasons?
> ABCL does exist, sure,
Would that count as a hosted implementation?
My point is that implementations don't come from nothing. You can't just demand them to be there. They have to be invented/implemented/improved/... Companies at that time did not invest any money in micro implementations of Lisp. I also believe that there was a reason for that: it would have been mostly useless.
> Temporarily. But then it died when the big money went away and left Lisp all but dead. All the while all the people using languages on those "toys" kept right on going.
Lot's of toys and languages for them died.
What? Type declarations in CL (which came from prior Lisp dialects) were added, so that optimizing Lisp compilers can use those to create fast machine code on typical CPUs (various CISC and RISC processors). Several optimizing compilers have been written, taking advantage of that feature. The compiler of SBCL would be an example. SBCL (and CMUCL before that) also uses type declarations as assertions. So, both the SBCL runtime and the SBCL compiler use type declarations.
> why then it can't be 'hosted' like Clojure?
ABCL does not exist?
I see no evidence for that. Lisp was a pain on tiny machines with bad user interface.
> 64K is solid for a Lisp if you own the whole machine.
I had a Lisp on an Apple II. It was a useless toy. I was using UCSD Pascal and Modula 2 on it. Much better.
I had Cambridge Lisp on an Atari with 68k CPU. It was next to unusable due to frequent crashes on calling FFI functions.
The first good Lisp implementation I got was MacScheme on the Mac and then the breakthrough was Macintosh Common Lisp from Coral Software.
> Had one of the Lisperati evangelized Lisp on micros
There were articles for example in the Byte magazine. Lisp simply was a bad fit to tiny machines. Lisp wasn't very efficient for small memory. Maybe with lots of work implementing a tiny Lisp in assembler. But who would have paid for it? People need to eat. The tiny Lisp for the Apple II was not usable, due to the lack of useful programming environment.
> Alas, they were off charging a gazillion bucks to government contracts.
At least there were people willing to pay for it.
I kind of fail to see Lisp as an alternative to assembler on mid 80s micros.
Though, there were several cheap Lisps for PCs...
Symbolics Genera can save (incremental and complete) images (-> "Worlds"). The image tracks all the sources loaded into it. The sources/files/docs/... of the software is stored on a central (or local) file server.
I can for example start an initial world and load it with all the wanted software in the various versions I want. Maybe I save a new world from that.
I can also start an pre-loaded world and incrementally update the software: write patches, create new minor/major versions, load patches and updates from the central server, install updates from distributions, ... Maybe save new worlds.
The "System Construction Tool" tracks what code is loaded in what version from where.
That's M-" .
Yeah, one would write the implementation in Java.
Common Lisp (and Lisp in general) often aspires to be written in itself, efficiently. Thus it has all the operations, which a hosted language may get from the imperative/mutable/object-oriented language underneath. That's why CL implementations may have type declarations, type inference, various optimizations, stack allocation, TCO and other features - directly in the language implementation. See for example the SBCL manual. https://sbcl.org/manual/index.html
For example the SBCL implementation is largely written in itself, whereas Clojure runs on top of a virtual machine written in a few zillion lines of C/C++ and Java.
1) place the cursor on the left parenthesis of the form
2) type paredit-wrap-round: M-(
3) type: if flag
Doesn't appear to be overly complex.
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&d...
1-lisp or 2-lisp is also a difference, though all support lexical closures and function objects.
Racket now has a variant without s-expressions. That's also a huge difference.
Far from it. On the s-expression level there are already differences. On the actual language level, Common Lisp for example provides function definitions with named arguments, declarations, documention strings, etc.
For example the syntax for function parameter definition in CL is:
lambda-list::= (var*
[&optional {var | (var [init-form [supplied-p-parameter]])}*]
[&rest var]
[&key {var |
({var | (keyword-name var)} [init-form [supplied-p-parameter]])}*
[&allow-other-keys]]
[&aux {var | (var [init-form])}*])
A non-advertized feature, which is not independently verified, which about image contents? I would be prefer independent verification of their claims.
There you've placed a link from Fascism and "National Socialism" to the EU.
Nice try.
Ursula on der Leyen was 2019 supported by Angela Merkel (Chancellor of Germany) as the future president of the EU commission. That's no secret. Macron also supported her. The European Council then nominated Ursula on der Leyen and she was accepted by the European Parliament. The Parliament is directly elected the citizens of the European Union.
The election of her was kind of unfortunate, since it was signalled by parties that the election to the parliament will also find the proposed EU commission president. But that was not the case. Since a candidate was not found (various parties and governments were not happy with the proposed candidates), the European Council finally proposed Ursula von der Leyen, which then also got a majority in the parliament.
Generally about the appointment of the commission:
https://commission.europa.eu/about/organisation/how-commissi...
Now EU citizens can do it peacefully.
Freedom of movement in the EU also does not mean "people can move freely in Europe". It's a right for EU citizens. Not for all people. It's also for people who can actually afford to live at a new place.
Preserving a cultural heritage does not mean regions are suddenly cultural museums. Cultural regions also are not by single nations, they span across several nations or nations have several cultural regions.
For example in Germany there wasn't a 'Nation' for much of the history. Much of the culture came out of changing regions. Visit Munich, Aachen, Lübeck, Danzig (not even a part of Germany today) and look at their history. Different. Look at their cultural history: different. They are now living in a FEDERAL republic of states (Danzig is even in Poland, now). A Bundesrepublik of Bundesländer. This FEDERAL republic is also a member of the EU. People from German regions can move freely in the German states. They also can move freely in the EU.
Cultures in Europe developed and mixed since the beginning of human settlement on this continent. Now it still happens, peacefully.
I live in Northern Germany. There was an intense cultural exchange for hundreds of years, spanning several regions. Do you think that this is suddenly not a part of my cultural heritage?
Don't you think that modern transportation, modern communication, change things? Don't you think we need to find answers to changes? That we cope with changes? This platform here is international in English, from the US, spreading innovations and discussions about it. Don't you think that this has effects? Deep cultural effects??? Freedom of Movement in the EU is one of the answers to these changes we see.
> an EU member state (present or future) cannot be forced to adopt the Euro
Future members can be forced. They won't become EU members, without a clear will to adopt the policies which lead to the Euro.