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Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by brabel on Sunday July 11, 2021 @12:02PM (#27801925)
A company which only hires junior developers is not a company that values quality development practices and it cannot expect to get stuff done on time, let alone with high quality and industry's best practices... not that junior developers cannot be good (with proper guidance they can be awesome), but without experienced people around to guide them, and without them having experience of their own, they are bound to make every possible mistake in the book no matter how smart.

The people running the company were playing with fire and they must either be too junior themselves to understand that, or they were just knowingly doing so and hoping to get whatever product MVP they had planned as quickly as possible with the minimum amount of expenses possible.

Don't feel bad for being fired from such a company. It might have been the best thing to happen to you because now you get the opportunity of getting a proper job where you might actually have experienced people to mentor you and help you become a great developer and professional.

With that said: next time a CTO asks you to create something in a month for a demo, just go ahead and implement a mock (no DB, no error handling, just happy path code) that's just about enough for the demo, nothing else. Make it clear to the person who is going to run the demo that this is not the real deal, and arrange for only the happy path to be followed in the demo (add a few safeguards just in case so if the person does something unexpected you just ignore it, never crash!). You could have probably pulled that off in a couple of days :D but yeah, you probably thought you needed to have the real final product ready otherwise it wouldn't be demo-able... Trust me, that's almost certainly not the case.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by djsweet on Sunday July 11, 2021 @01:17PM (#27802712)
> The people running the company were playing with fire and they must either be too junior themselves to understand that, or they were just knowingly doing so and hoping to get whatever product MVP they had planned as quickly as possible with the minimum amount of expenses possible.

Knowingly playing with fire like this is a sign of a lack of maturity, both on the founders part and the investor’s part. Anyone experienced in the business of building software would have known that:

1. It takes time

2. Time takes funding

3. It’s probably not going to work the first time you try an end-to-end test

Mature founders would have found mature investors to give them both the funding and the time to stabilize the software. They would not have attempted to make their investor demo the first big end-to-end test, and even if they did put off testing they would have communicated that to the investors, who should have understood the state of their investment only six ~months~ weeks in.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by tarsinge on Sunday July 11, 2021 @02:18PM (#27803278)
> The second fault was the CEO’s. He didn’t even try the app once before presenting it to the investors.

That says it all regarding maturity and/or professionalism, that’s the number #1 job of the CEO.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by cure on Sunday July 11, 2021 @07:59PM (#27805551)
> that’s the number #1 job of the CEO.

Actually, no, the #1 job of the CEO is "do not run out of money".

But, I agree that this CEO sounds like a complete cowboy. Not preparing properly for an investor meeting is ridiculous, and with that attitude, this CEO will probably run out of money sooner or later...

I suspect the author of this article will be much happier in her new job. Hopefully she knew what kind of work environments to avoid after this experience.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by throwawayboise on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:07PM (#27803736)
The CEO should not be presenting the app in the first place. Product demos should be done by someone who knows the product inside and out, knows where the unfinished bits are (if any), and has experience presenting products to investors/buyers.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by MobileVet on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:19PM (#27803836)
Have to disagree on this a bit. The meeting in question was with an investor. The CEO should be the point person for all investor relations... especially the first meeting with said investor.

If your CEO can’t ‘sell’ the product / app/ company to an investor effectively, you won’t last.

The CEO should absolutely have the skills, knowledge and energy to sell whatever it is your business does

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by throwawayboise on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:24PM (#27803886)
Oh of course the CEO should be involved with the investors, at a business level. I'm saying the CEO is not the best person to actually do the demo, in most cases. Bring along a product and sales expert to the meeting do that. Steve Jobs is the exeption that proves the rule; most CEOs do not have his showmanship.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by Diesel555 on Sunday July 11, 2021 @06:41PM (#27805063)
This reminds me of the WWDCs. Tim Cook is there to introduce the products, but their engineers (or management of the individual product) are the ones to demonstrate it.

But, I guess Apple probably has people with better salesmanship skills in each product team than the startup had below the CEO. I'm arguing with myself.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by chrisandchris on Monday July 12, 2021 @03:14AM (#27807874)
Maybe yes, maybe no.

Take a look at the presentation of the original iPhone. It was presented (if I remember correctly) by Steve Jobs himself. But he knew exactly which buttons to press in which order, because otherwise the phone would crash.

I think such an important presentation may/must be done by the CEO, but he must exaclty know that to do and he must prepare very well.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by NotSwift on Monday July 12, 2021 @06:22AM (#27808846)
You can let the CEO handle the overall presentation and let someone else do the demo. The CEO should focus on the overall picture and selling it as a product, while a more technical person should do the demo. I have seen this multiple time in presentations.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by lmilcin on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:34PM (#27803948)
> Knowingly playing with fire like this is a sign of a lack of maturity, both on the founders part and the investor’s part.

It doesn't matter really whether this is or is not knowingly.

If you are CEO and you don't know something (because you have never had any experience in IT, for example) it is your job to find people that do and give them tools to do their job well enough.

But you would not run a company without at least some experienced accountants or lawyers, I would assume any thinking person should be able to predict the same goes for software developers.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by caeril on Sunday July 11, 2021 @05:24PM (#27804622)
> A company which only hires junior developers is not a company that values quality development practices and it cannot expect to get stuff done on time

I wish this wasn't such a common trope among the VC, FAANG, or Fortune 500 crowd.

Believe it or not, there exist a million small businesses who don't enjoy the luxury of burning OPM, who can't afford $200k developer salaries, no matter how much they want to.

In one sense, you're ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. But here in the real world, in flyover country, revenue will always constrain resources. Those of us running small, stable businesses are forced to make tradeoffs that FAANGs or cash-burning VC-funded operations don't have to.

That said, yes, the people in this story seem to be the gambling, poor-management types and the OP shouldn't worry overly about losing this "opportunity".

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by gizmo686 on Sunday July 11, 2021 @06:28PM (#27804965)
If you are a software company, then paying market rate for quality developers is table stakes. It is an expensive market to operate in and you care competing with very well funded global competition.

Most small business are not that. If you are running a tailoring business, or an ice cream shop, or a landscaping, you probably don't need a senior developer. Heck, you might not need to hire any developers at all. As long as you have someone technically inclined, you can probably manage your digital presence well enough without it being anyone's full time job.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by dheera on Sunday July 11, 2021 @04:48PM (#27804431)
> A company which only hires junior developers

Part of it is also stingy investors in the ecosystem.

The top-tier investors often give enough cash to hire experienced developers. Unfortunately most companies don't get that kind of money, and instead of getting the $2M round they need, they settle for a third- or fourth-tier VC's $200K check with bad terms and a warrant for the rest of the $1.8M, and then they end up paying their employees crap wages and overworking them with the hope that they can attract a top-tier VC for the next round.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by brailsafe on Sunday July 11, 2021 @06:58PM (#27805177)
It may be a blessing in disguise, until an employer asks you why you left your only work experience, and you have to dance around a bit to persuade them to give you a shot.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by ratww on Sunday July 11, 2021 @07:25PM (#27805365)
Nah. Just tell them there were only junior devs and no seniors and people will understand why you left.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by cutemonster on Monday July 12, 2021 @06:14AM (#27808807)
Unless that new company is also [...]
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by cowvin on Monday July 12, 2021 @06:41PM (#27815957)
lol yeah, but then you're just dodging the next bullet.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by amelius on Sunday July 11, 2021 @06:02PM (#27804816)
> next time a CTO asks you to create something in a month for a demo, just go ahead and implement a mock

But expectations have shifted and management now expects to get the real thing.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by gentleman11 on Sunday July 11, 2021 @12:27PM (#27802200)
Depends on the students. The top students in a graduating class can be extraordinary compared to the average experienced person, although there is a lot they don’t know
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by devoutsalsa on Sunday July 11, 2021 @12:47PM (#27802419)
It doesn’t depend on the student. Every developer starts out as a dumbass. There are an infinite number of sharp edges in software and we all cut ourselves on all of them.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by _dibly on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:06PM (#27803721)
I'm almost two years into self-employment and I'm wondering when I'm going to either stop cutting myself on things or land a position with some people who can show me their cool scars for a while.

This forum is the closest thing I get to coworkers and I don't even understand what half of you are saying. I'm fortunate for the opportunities that I have, but my antisocial tendencies and lack of professional peers can make progress a bit of a bear on occasion.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by throwawayboise on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:09PM (#27803748)
It never ends, unless you stop advancing/keeping up. That's the frustrating thing about this field, you are never an expert because the technology advances so quickly.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by solraph on Sunday July 11, 2021 @09:07PM (#27805877)
I'm somewhere between two and three decades in the field.

> when I'm going to either stop cutting myself on things

Never. You (should) get better at recognising some of the themes and danger signs, but the field evolves so fast that at some point you are going to work with something so new that literally nobody knows what the sharp edges are.

> land a position with some people who can show me their cool scars for a while.

Meetups, slack, discord, IRC, forums. Find the one that works for you and be a regular. Be an expert in one subject and be modest and willing to learn when it comes to others. Nobody has it all figured out.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by flir on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:33PM (#27803942)
It's just as important to develop the soft skills as the hard skills, and I think you've just quite nicely summarized why that is.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by ficklepickle on Sunday July 11, 2021 @04:42PM (#27804404)
I'm in a very similar situation, just a few years further down the road. I would gladly show you my cool scars.

I have often thought about trying to build a network of like-minded individuals. Of course, it doesn't come naturally. If it did, there wouldn't be a need for it!

My contact info is in my profile, feel free to reach out.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by ipaddr on Sunday July 11, 2021 @09:47PM (#27806103)
I like your spirit. Welcome to the party.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by asdjlkadsjklads on Sunday July 11, 2021 @02:06PM (#27803170)
Couldn't agree more. The only reason i'd call myself employable as a developer is because i've taken on many self-projects and reinvented many wheels, which resulted in lots of sharp corners and hard lessons learned.

It's a definite time sink to learn these lessons, but it's of real value to me personally.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by wernercd on Sunday July 11, 2021 @02:16PM (#27803260)
"starts out as" 10 years in and I'm still a dumbass... I work circles around most and I'm still a dumbass... I'm close to being honestly a full stack developer - server, database, api, windows services, websites (I know Asp.net MVC... but not deeply... finally learning Angular)...

... I'm still a dumbass...

I wonder... if after 10 years... will I stop being one after 20? 30?

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by lowercased on Sunday July 11, 2021 @05:35PM (#27804672)
No. 25 years in here. You may think you're a dumbass even then. Other people may think you're a dumbass. You will still make stupid mistakes. You will probably make fewer than other people, and there will be many mistakes you don't make any longer, because you've already made them and have learned your lessons.

But the feeling of being a dumbass may never leave you entirely. You will need to learn to control that some, and not always let on to everyone around you how dumb you feel at all times. But... honestly, the folks I've worked with who never ever admit to feeling dumb or doing dumb things - they STILL make the same mistakes, often more, and seem to have no capacity for self-reflection or skills improvement. So... understand your "I'm a dumbass" feeling may just be part of you pointing out that you can get better, and help you find opportunities to improve.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by wernercd on Sunday July 11, 2021 @06:39PM (#27805041)
Well, I honestly use the feeling of being a dumbass (AKA: imposter syndrome) as fuel to learn more and do better.

As you say, self reflection and skill improvement.

I honestly think it's why I'm a good programmer...

That... and being lazy. I'll work for weeks to make processes easier. IE: a release process that used to be manual and fraught with mistakes is now, more or less, button clicks and powershell scripts.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by aniforprez on Sunday July 11, 2021 @02:27PM (#27803349)
Honestly the feeling hasn't completely gone away but I've slowly stopped thinking of myself this way as intensely as I did before. What it took was strong mentorship from a really good boss and exposure to all levels of the stack and strong architectural and technical principles to building robust applications. Taking some interviews I felt much better about myself than I had in years cause I was actually able to answer things that I couldn't have a couple of years ago

I hope you find that place in your life too. It's a lot of relief when it happens

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by sangnoir on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:18PM (#27803826)
> ... I'm still a dumbass...

While that may be true, you're less of a dumbass now, thanks to experiences. If you were to guide a junior developer now, you'd probably walk them back from a dozen sharp edges, thanks to your experience, but we tend to discount that.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by miscaccount on Sunday July 11, 2021 @04:24PM (#27804294)
i feel also with time, you get better from recovering from these stupid mistakes faster and also come up with better solutions/fixes faster.

This will have taken your younger self , twice or more to understand the problem and come up with solution

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by devoutsalsa on Sunday July 11, 2021 @04:43PM (#27804409)
You also getting better at owning mistakes without making them sound like a big deal. You just say stuff like “that’s an interesting edge you’d only learn by querying a table with millions of rows” instead of anxiously shitting your pants in shame.

Last Friday learned that Postgres (and apparently MySQL) will effectively ignore an index in a column when combining “ORDER BY … LIMIT …” and “WHERE some_column IN some_array”. I had introduced a query that timed out on a critical prod table , fixed it by removing the limit, and turned it into a teaching moment to others who could have made the same mistake: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8909163/avoid-full-table...

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by ClumsyPilot on Sunday July 11, 2021 @01:13PM (#27802685)
"A stupid person can make only certain, limited types of errors; the mistakes open to a clever fellow are far broader. But to the one who knows how smart he is compared to everyone else, the possibilities for true idiocy are boundless."
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by wonderwonder on Sunday July 11, 2021 @08:05PM (#27805575)
Few things as frustrating as coming back a year later to uncommented code written when you thought you were being smart.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by bstpierre on Sunday July 11, 2021 @09:31PM (#27806000)
One thing that is slightly more frustrating is saying “What dumbass wrote this code? How did this ever work?” And then looking at git blame and realizing the dumbass is year-ago you. (Or even five years ago you.)
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by hinkley on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:38AM (#27807397)
Or sometimes six months ago…
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by longhairedhippy on Sunday July 11, 2021 @12:48PM (#27802428)
Not everything is written in books or taught in classes, even the most accomplished genius is going to have gaps. Depending on the person and they're penchant for studying outside of the curriculum, those gaps could be relatively smaller between people, however it's not going to erase them. Someone who has already built a live system, potentially multiple times, is going to have experiences you cannot just intuitively reason through, you must live them. You don't need a majority of folks like this on the team but one or two could save you a lot of wasted time and effort.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by bluefirebrand on Sunday July 11, 2021 @12:47PM (#27802418)
The top student in any grad class is probably still going to make a ton of mistakes compared to even an average dev with 10 years of experience though.

There really is no substitute for actually making the mistakes and learning from them

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by pkolaczk on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:05PM (#27803714)
The average devs with 10 years of experience also make ton of mistakes, even when developing the 10th project. Projects are not all the same. I've met people with 10+ years of experience, labeled as seniors who write horrible code.

I'd take a smart junior who can think logically and who is passionate about the job over someone who has 10x 1 year experience and doesn't want to learn, or is just not smart enough. Chances are a good junior can beat such senior after a few months (sometimes even weeks) of experience on the project. And the junior typically won't fight with the tech lead over something they "have always been doing" (even when it was an anti pattern).

Anyway, it is good to have at least one senior dev who is an expert on the tech stack / architecture used.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by asoneth on Sunday July 11, 2021 @12:49PM (#27802442)
I agree that recent graduates can be extraordinary, but a team with no seasoned developers is still a major red flag to me.

I've worked on many projects, some successful, some not. The difference was often that the successful projects had a critical mass of wise people who had learned from past failures and could anticipate the pitfalls and avoid them -- it seems more rare that actual project success comes down to having yet another brilliant programmer.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by neither_color on Sunday July 11, 2021 @02:18PM (#27803274)
There is a reason years of experience matters more than class GPA or school rank. Being a good student in many cases just means being able to cram for exam week, it says nothing about your consistent habits. Software is a marathon not a final exam.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by gentleman11 on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:52PM (#27804060)
GPA doesn’t have anything to do with being a good student
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by slumdev on Sunday July 11, 2021 @12:48PM (#27802425)
They may have extraordinary potential, extraordinary problem-solving ability, extraordinary communications skills, and extraordinary critical thinking skills. They may be tremendously resourceful and almost entirely independent.

But all of these qualities only accelerate the learning process that happens in the real world. They don't replace it.

Edit: To be fair, given the choice, I'd rather have an MIT CS grad than some schmuck who barely squeaked through the MIS program at Big State U. But I'd take a good experienced dev over either of them.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by Google234 on Sunday July 11, 2021 @02:04PM (#27803144)
I don’t think it would take long for the MIT CS grad to start out performing this “good” experienced dev. The experienced dev could be a principal engineer by 20 years if they cared more about CS.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by exdsq on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:41PM (#27804004)
Most projects don't require some deep CS knowledge so even if the MIT CS grad was great at getting up to speed they still lack experience of edge cases and gotchas. Most companies don't have Principal level roles.

Might still make sense because they're cheaper.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by tester756 on Sunday July 11, 2021 @04:15PM (#27804228)
What makes you think so?
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by abunuwas on Sunday July 11, 2021 @01:43PM (#27802951)
There're very few extraordinary students who can start contributing from the start. But those students are already stars of their own, not the kind you can hire. For the vast majority, there's a very long journey from graduation to professional developer. This applies also to PhDs, and yes, also from the best universities in the world (I have those in my team often). A company that only hires junior graduates as devs is a company that doesn't take software seriously. Such companies often collapse under their own weight
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by pjc50 on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:13PM (#27803784)
I've worked with all sorts of brilliant people and genuine 10x developers, and it's true both that students can achieve great things and that anyone can make a mistake - and that low-quality work environments like that of the OP can force anyone to make mistakes.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by 6510 on Sunday July 11, 2021 @04:39PM (#27804382)
Others have to fill your gaps. I have no problems telling people their methods are wrong even if they might fire me over it. We either fix it or I'm gone.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by erdo on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:31PM (#27803928)
> although there is a lot they don't know

I think that's exactly the problem. Re top students I assume we're talking about things like a deep knowledge of algorithms, implementation details of relevant languages, the latest frameworks, being comfortable writing in an object oriented or functional style, being extremely smart, having a lot of working memory, loads of energy and enthusiasm, being able to grasp complicated concepts quickly etc (I've never met a recent grad who is even close to that, but I understand it's at least theoretical).

But experience lets you do things like push back a little on the requirements (because you know that what is being asked for is not actually what is wanted). Or choosing path A instead of path B because you know that path B will come back to bite your team later because you've seen how it played out a few times before. Knowing which things will make the biggest difference to the speed or quality of delivery, whilst costing the least to implement. You know what problems you should ignore and what problems are serious risks. Things like that can sometimes make the experienced developer a 10x programmer, it's certainly not because they're typing 10x faster than anyone else.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by dudleypippin on Sunday July 11, 2021 @07:44PM (#27805481)
I agree with your assessment.

“Experience is what lets you recognize a mistake when you’re in the process of making it a second time.”

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by jjav on Sunday July 11, 2021 @04:14PM (#27804222)
> although there is a lot they don’t know

That "although" is the whole point.

Knowing the technical basics (language syntax, getting things to work) is the easy baseline. What's missing in every studente (unless they went back to school after a solid stint in industry) is the experience of understanding the processes and approaches required to build something lasting and to operate within a larger team.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by onion2k on Sunday July 11, 2021 @05:11PM (#27804554)
An app like the one the author of the article is talking about doesn't need "extraordinary" coders. The reason for the crash was that someone entered invalid data. That is a very simple, and very common, problem that you only start to understand with a bit of experience. You don't need to be a brilliant genius to understand it. Literally every dev whose worked on a few apps can deal with it. But you do need to have worked with real QAs and real customers in order to understand that people do stupid things that you need to protect against. No one is teaching that in a compsci class. Juniors learn that from seniors. If you have no seniors, demos failing on "obvious" things is exactly what happens.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by emsy on Sunday July 11, 2021 @01:06PM (#27802609)
I know exactly why you’re being downvoted: most developers identify as the average experienced developer and can’t handle the fact that they can be outperformed by an extraordinary rookie (although such people usually have a lot of experience from working in their free time).
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by ClumsyPilot on Sunday July 11, 2021 @01:17PM (#27802722)
"most developers identify as the average"

That is what average means

Let's make this more obvious: Imagine that in you have to produce Nitroglycerine, explosive set off by the slightest of mistakes.

Would you rather it done by someone superbly clever, but straight out of uni, or someone who's average, but has done it for 20 years and survived?

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by Google234 on Sunday July 11, 2021 @02:02PM (#27803130)
Well if you are happy that you found someone that can follow a checklist then fine. I doubt the top tier grad would want that type of job anyway.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by exdsq on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:44PM (#27804026)
Out of interest with your name Google234, are you a student or early employee? You seem to be very certain about things in your comments here but I'm unsure if they come from experience or speculation.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by ClumsyPilot on Sunday July 11, 2021 @02:15PM (#27803246)
Do you know how many hundred top tier chemical and nuclear scientists died while "following the checklist"? Look up Demon Core
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by oriolid on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:09PM (#27803747)
IIRC the work with Demon Core was described as "tickling the dragon's tail", not "following the checklist". Wikipedia also mentions "Slotin's own unapproved protocol".
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by ClumsyPilot on Sunday July 11, 2021 @08:37PM (#27805720)
You are right, it's a different point - just trying to illustrate that being some of the smartest people on earth doesnt mean you wont make a terrible mistake or will have good judgement.

Like they knew it was super dangerous, there wasn't new science discovered since then about this particular setup. Today rank and file engineers know not to do that

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by Google234 on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:24PM (#27803883)
Also how could there be a checklist? They were literally pioneers
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by oriolid on Monday July 12, 2021 @09:27AM (#27810005)
An easy way to create one would be to ask "what could go wrong" and "how bad would it be", then develop procedures to minimize the risk.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by RichardCA on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:55PM (#27804087)
Not calling you out, but where did you get the number deaths > 100 from?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticality_accident

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by chha on Sunday July 11, 2021 @09:02PM (#27805855)
Problem was, there was no real checklist. They were part of a huge number of people who have created the checklists, partly as a result of lessons learned after making mistakes resulting in death and destruction.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by Google234 on Sunday July 11, 2021 @02:44PM (#27803516)
1, you are now really exaggerating. 2, this analogy is really straying far from software engineering. 3, what is your point here?
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by laumars on Sunday July 11, 2021 @01:29PM (#27802833)
Most senior engineers expect to be out paced by juniors in terms of raw throughout.

But what the seniors have over the juniors is several years of experience making mistakes.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by dilyevsky on Sunday July 11, 2021 @02:31PM (#27803391)
“Raw throughput” like what? Mashing on the keyboard? Then - sure. Sorry but that’s just not true ime. On some tasks jrs are even infinitely slower than srs because they just can’t make any headway at all
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by laumars on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:41PM (#27812937)
On some tasks that’s true. I was making a generalisation rather than defining an absolute.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by dilyevsky on Monday July 12, 2021 @08:14PM (#27816513)
I’m having troubles imagining how more experienced eng could be slower than junior provided their code is reviewed and tested to the same standard. Unless the task is so soul crushingly rote that your senior is looking for another job rather than working on it ;)
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by laumars on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @02:30AM (#27818137)
Raw throughout isn’t the same as speed.

The senior might spend more time doing PRs (juniors might not feel as comfortable), more time in meetings discussing new projects or architecting around arising problems. A junior is generally more enthusiastic so might voluntarily work longer hours to close of tickets, or just take fewer coffee breaks than a senior. A senior might also spend a portion of their time training juniors.

I’m not saying a senior engineer can’t be a prolific at closing off tickets as a junior, but more seniority means more responsibility and that often means less time writing code.

But there are also occasions when I might genuinely expect a senior to be slower. Like if they’re in their mid to late 30s and have young children who aren’t sleeping. People say you shouldn’t bring your home problems to work but the reality is that we are not robots and if you’re not sleeping at home then you’re performance at work will suffer. Whereas most 20-somethings have fewer commitments outside of work.

If we are talking really senior, like 60s, then a sad fact of reality is our mental faculties aren’t going to be as sharp as they were when we were in our 20s. So it might take an engineer a little longer to solve complex problems than someone fresh out of uni. Particularly if it’s an academic problem that one might have studied at uni but seldom need in your career.

So there are plenty of mitigating factors that might affect the throughput of a senior engineer. But that doesn’t matter but you hire them for their experience rather than their youthful motivation. And it’s also why it is important to have a balanced team of junior and seniors.

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by tgv on Sunday July 11, 2021 @01:12PM (#27802674)
I don't think that was the point. Rather, it's that many rookies, including bright graduates, think "meh, I can run this SQL script without making a backup first."
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by acituan on Sunday July 11, 2021 @02:29PM (#27803380)
The hinge of this analysis is on the word "outperformed". Performance of what you're measuring exactly? If our sole performance criteria was churning out LOC and subsisting on adderall, any new grad can kick ass. But you wouldn't entrust them multi-million-dollar man-hours of headcount to a steer multi-quarter project to actually work and bring in money. Without such steering, any code is mere dead matter, for which the performance of making is irrelevant.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by gentleman11 on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:55PM (#27804083)
Despite the deluge of downvotes, recent grads and dropouts formed many of the worlds largest companies, and many you work for them or for their successors. Linux was started by Linus while in school as well. I don’t know why this is getting so much hostility

Bill gates Michael dell Zuckerberg Jobs Dorsey (Many others)

I’m sorry this makes so many people mad but… stop looking down on people

Also, why are people conflating high gpa with being a top student? Top student means “the best at creating software”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Linux

Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by an_opabinia on Sunday July 11, 2021 @12:54PM (#27802488)
I'm not sure why this is being downvoted. There's no evidence that the kind of instruction that e.g. Facebook gives its junior developers is meaningful for performance on average. However I bet hiring from top universities is definitely meaningful for performance on average.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by cortesoft on Sunday July 11, 2021 @01:02PM (#27802573)
It isn't the instruction on the job that is important, it is the experience of actually doing things in anger
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by gbear605 on Sunday July 11, 2021 @03:33PM (#27803943)
A junior developer is going to have a lot of blind spots because of unknown unknowns. A team with both talented junior developers and experienced senior developers can utilize the raw ability of the junior devs while having the senior devs cover the blindspots. A team with only talented junior devs will likely make some great things but they’ll also wind up having crucial problems that will only late into the project.
Re:Three programmers got fired, including me, due to a singl... by rejectedandsad on Sunday July 11, 2021 @01:50PM (#27803019)
This is probably true, top university admissions is a function of innate ability, and programming is too apparently.