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Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by Animats on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @03:29AM (#27672918)
"This site uses cookies. Cookies are files saved on your phone, tablet or computer when you visit a website. We use cookies to store information about how you use the GOV.UK blogs website, such as the pages you visit."

They don't need cookies. They're not running ads (one hopes). There's no "conversion". It's just info. If they just need traffic info, they can get that from their server logs. They don't need Google Analytics. Nor should they be giving information to Google.

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by alias_neo on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @03:35AM (#27672966)
I read a Twitter thread a while back saying they use Google Analytics, but if you reject the cookie prompt it isn't loaded.

They need some sort of analytics if they want to know how the site is used, but as a Brit who uses that site I'd really rather they didn't use GA, it's not appropriate, in my opinion for a government service.

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by the_other on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @05:26AM (#27673639)
It's never appropriate. It's a lynchpin of Google's surveillance network. The benefit they get from "giving away" the useful-but-awkward tools outweighs the benefit any GA users see from using GA. Google rigged the race before most people knew they were in it. We all should stop using it.
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by atatatat on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:07AM (#27676870)
I am a CTO making these decisions, right now.

Can you point me toward a more moral path that won't make it painful for SEO contractors to work with our startup?

If there's something better, or more informative than Google Analytics, I would obviously love to choose that!

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by tutmeister on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @01:56PM (#27679434)
I lead a government digital service and have migrated from GA out of respect for our constituents' privacy.

Umami is a great self-hosted alternative, which you can load under a subdomain to avoid it being blocked by adblockers. Most of the SaaS products end up on uBlock or other adblocker lists, even when they respect privacy, so this has been my go to option.

UserTrack is another great option we use and it continues to add great features. It's more than worth the commercial license fee. I had a conversation with Cristian by email this weekend, for example, about adding a feature. By this morning he had put together an example in their docs on how to add the feature to your site.

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by alias_neo on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:18AM (#27677064)
The general consensus is "host your own", that way you're not giving more control over the web to Google by providing them the inner workings of your site via your analytics data.

There are several alternatives, you'll tend to find a lot of them advertised in the comments section here for any anti-Google Analytics post.

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by stefanvdw1 on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:12AM (#27676971)
I’ve heard good things about both plausible [0] and panelbear[1] as alternatives to Google Analytics. Can’t say I have tested them personally yet unfortunately.

0. https://plausible.io 2. https://panelbear.com

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by crtasm on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:30AM (#27677290)
Fully agree. Related: we noticed they have the invisible google recaptcha on the submission page for registering covid test kits.

If you have google.com blocked, instead of asking you to unblock it you just get told "we can't confirm the details you entered are genuine".

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by alias_neo on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:38AM (#27677438)
I didnt know that. That's pretty disappointing. What do they expect us to do if we want to report test results but not allow Google captcha?
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by crtasm on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:54AM (#27677698)
We checked the physical instructions and no other option is offered. I wonder if they even considered people might have google blocked when building the system.

Page in question: https://test-for-coronavirus.service.gov.uk/register-home-te...

Even the feedback form linked from there is "Protected by reCAPTCHA". Ridiculous.

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by FerretFred on Thursday July 01, 2021 @09:12AM (#27698728)
The cookies popups are probably _the_ most annoying thing about the gov.uk experience.
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by antihero on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @06:39AM (#27674052)
You can log into various services in order to do things like manage your tax account. Of course they need cookies (or some other form of session management).

And even not for that, analytics is a useful tool to figure out how people use the website.

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by overscore on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @07:44AM (#27674481)
> Of course they need cookies (or some other form of session management)

In the UK, cookies used for only that purpose don't require consent. In their cookie policy, you can see they don't ask for permission to set such cookies - they rely on a different legal basis: https://www.blog.gov.uk/cookies/

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by AndrewDucker on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @03:42AM (#27673016)
Logs can't differentiate between 10,000 computers behind the same proxy. For that you really do need cookies.

(But they could self host)

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by lucasverra on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @03:52AM (#27673078)
matomo.org offers self-hosting analytics. Im not affiliated to them but an alternative is always good.

[0]https://matomo.org

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by lobsang on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @03:59AM (#27673116)
GDS used to recommend matomo, especially for services with 'sensitive' content (each service on gov.uk is actually developed, hosted and deployed separately). I know the foreign office used it, unfortunately the trend amongst the designers/analysts/product managers had been to push GA without any real thought process (because frankly it's easier than getting permission to setup and maintain a self-hosted product)
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by lucasverra on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @07:58AM (#27674613)
yeah same experience in France.

GA is already approved and installable via a meta tag, so besides the warm feeling of fighting the giant, there is not too much upside and lots of questions to answer.

Upper stakeholders should connect the ideas : "Google data monopoly" and "other option for analytics should be available".

/rant's-off

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by phreeza on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @05:25AM (#27673633)
You still have user agent and other per-request hints to help you differentiate, right? Of course 20k behind one proxy is extreme, but this should cover a large fraction of use cases I think.
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by randomperson_24 on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:16AM (#27677044)
They are probably using enterprise version of Google Analytics, where data isn't associated with activity on Google and not used for advertising.
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by snowwrestler on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @12:39PM (#27678334)
That’s how GA started and it’s still possible for anyone to set it up that way, although Google kind of hides it. If you use GA without Tag Manager or Doubleclick integration, the data is aggregated for your analytics but not tied to other Google activity.
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by noduerme on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @04:08AM (#27673170)
Don't UK and European sites still have to put up this notice even if the cookie isn't persistent? E.g. a session cookie?
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by kuschku on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @04:19AM (#27673248)
Anything that is used for tracking requires opt-in, anything that's technically necessary and obvious (e.g. a login session cookie, a setting cookie) does not require any opt-in.
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by noduerme on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @05:10AM (#27673541)
Interesting to know. It's become so ubiquitous and standard that I didn't even know it was unnecessary for simple login credentials.
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by worble on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @06:37AM (#27674034)
Even if one wasn't strictly necessary, I know a lot of companies throw one in there regardless. The reasoning being that it's better to have it and cover your bases, then not have it and get hit with GDPR.
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by noduerme on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @09:04AM (#27675211)
Since all the clients I maintain these days are smaller, American-facing companies, I've never been asked to add this popup and I've never suggested it because none does business in the EU. No third party tracking cookies are involved, but some of my platforms do quite a bit of fingerprinting and store hashes of those fingerprints in cookies or local storage, and try to match those later with fingerprints polled for device authentication. This is perhaps less "obvious" a need for a site's internal purposes. None of it is shared, but I had assumed if I were to build anything like that EU-facing that the notice would be required.
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by mattmanser on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @07:54AM (#27674583)
AFAIK, that's not necessarily GDPR, you still need to have a cookie notice for third-party cookies, even if your third-party cookies don't collect PII.

But as others have said, you don't need a cookie notice of all you're using is necessary cookies.

Plus in the UK the ICO is underfunded, has a low enforcement record and is now sending menacing, misleading, letters demanding £40 from every UK business even though 90% of them don't actually need to pay the fee.

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by mikeodds on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @08:15AM (#27674756)
I take it you are referring to their data protection fee:

https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/data-protection-fee/

I agree it’s a complete joke, they demand you pay, then you pay £40 annually to basically click yes on 3 questions saying you are holding consumers personal information correctly with zero verification.

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by denton-scratch on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @10:07AM (#27675939)
Ghod, I'd never heard of that.

"It should take about 15 minutes to complete this form."

Really? 15m to make a 40-quid payment? Please fix that (or better, don't charge a fee unless you're providing a service).

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by oneeyedpigeon on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @04:20AM (#27673252)
Not if the cookie is essential to site use.
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by NiceWayToDoIT on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @05:12AM (#27673554)
The entire GDPR is utter nonsense. At the end providers are using different tricks so user give up and just say "ok + next", as going through list of partners and clicking on each of them is just crazy.

I just hope that at some point someone will calculate amount of time lost by clicking on these banners.

edit: Don't get me wrong idea behind is important, but practical implementation is just terrible. Either enforce it, exercise it or upgrade law to forbid any hint of user tracking, in the way it is implemented right now is just wasting people time and nerves.

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by barbarbar on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:59AM (#27677778)
The right to be forgotten. The right to get your data. The fines for those that does not comply with law. There is more to it than "cookie ok"
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by MaxBarraclough on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @05:33AM (#27673674)
> providers are using different tricks so user give up and just say "ok + next", as going through list of partners and clicking on each of them is just crazy.

This is illegal. Unfortunately, enforcement of the GDPR is laughable and everyone knows it, so the practice continues.

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by NiceWayToDoIT on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @06:22AM (#27673966)
I agree. I have seen so many consents where by default everything is on, there is no turn off all button. And when you go to partners list there is long list of 600 companies. But what grinds my gear the most is "Legitimate interest" ?! which somehow overrides your prior consent do not track me...
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by MaxBarraclough on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @07:18AM (#27674298)
Again, it's against the law to abuse the legitimate interest provision, but enforcement is rare.

An exception: Disqus got in legal trouble in Norway for this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27060609

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by atatatat on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:08AM (#27676906)
A number of firms who have been fined heavily would not agree with your assessment of the enforcement, but, the ones with no fines probably would.
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by Zababa on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @05:42AM (#27673736)
There is more to GDPR than cookies banner. For example, data portability: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24764371
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by NiceWayToDoIT on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @06:12AM (#27673907)
That is all nice and rosy but it practically simply does not work... I am just stating obvious from what I see on daily bases.
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by antihero on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @09:45AM (#27675683)
And there is far more going on than what you see on a daily basis. It isn't "obvious", yes the banner thing is shit, but GDPR is a complex legislation and has many great benefits for personal privacy that go far beyond annoying banners on web pages.
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by NiceWayToDoIT on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:28AM (#27677260)
Yes, I know thank you, with "entire GDPR" I meant banner only, as upper comment was about cookies and banner... but it came out wrong.
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by antihero on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:52AM (#27677663)
I would just be careful with words like "entire" in the future :)
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by NiceWayToDoIT on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @01:30PM (#27679080)
true :), currently a sentence from the movie The Giver 2014 lingering in my head --- "precision of speech", "precision of speech" :)
Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by londons_explore on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @05:33AM (#27673675)
If they can use an analytics package to analyze the visits of typical people to the site, and use that information to get more people the information they need quicker, everyones lives are made better.

In my mind, thats more important than the potential data leak of someone knowing that someone running Chrome 95 for Windows took 8.6 seconds to click from "Tax info" to "Self Employed Tax Info".

Re:Our plans to improve navigation on Gov.uk by stefan_ on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @05:44AM (#27673756)
[Citation needed]

Most analytics serve no other purpose than fill colorful dashboards for various middle managers needing to prove "impact".