German data: https://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alco...
US data: https://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alco...
Looking at the numbers, I think there's a real possibility that Germans and other Europeans have a problem with alcohol that's just as bad if not worse, but are possibly less willing to admit it. Just like how 70 years ago few in America would be willing to admit America's problems with alcohol and tobacco.
[1] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150220190741.h...
One of my great bugaboos is these cultural definitions of alcoholism that are independent from the actual amount of alcohol consumed. You know “you’re only an alcoholic if you drink alone” or “you’re only an alcoholic if you pour your own drinks” (apparently this is a meme in Japan?). Every culture that consumes alcohol seems to have these, and they’re all laughably naive and easily gamed. Alcoholics can and do drink heavily together, and they can pour each other drinks if that’s what it takes to sidestep some silly taboo. The only definition of this that’s meaningful is how much alcohol you drink and how often, nothing else.
(source: I've got family in Japan). It's polite in Japan to serve others and then let someone serve you. Otherwise it's "tejaku" (pooring oneself's drink). In, say, France/Belgium it's different: the one who serves from the bottle serves everybody and ends up serving himself.
Now, obviously, when you're drinking alone there's nobody to serve you...
I’ve never been to Japan, but I’d heard that “you’re only an alcoholic if you pour your own drinks” is a trope there. The question mark in my original post was to underscore my uncertainty.
My generation in Italy (millennials) tends to drink a lot more and with the precise purpose of getting drunk. The way they/we do it resembles much more the American way than the way our parents used to drink.
Of course, this is based on personal experience, but I’ve seen this pattern across different social classes and it seems to be mainly linked to age, more than education or economic condition.
From the WHO:
https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/disease-prevention...
"The WHO European Region has the highest proportion in the world of total ill health and premature death due to alcohol."
Unclear what this is supposed to mean. Italy[0], Portugal[1] and Spain[2] all have lower prevalence of heavy episodic drinking than the EU average.
Both Portugal ("south of the Alps") and France[3] ("north of the Alps") have higher alcohol consumption per capita than the EU average, which is largely due to a culture of moderate wine drinking with meals that has nothing to do with "functional alcoholism".
[0] https://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/402190/... [1] https://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/402198/... [2] https://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/402202/... [3] https://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/402185/...
Do you do research on drinking habits? How can you assume to know so much about the US’ drinking habits in general terms?
Most people don't understand the concept of standard drink sizes (for medical purposes or blood alcohol calculation). Firstly the standard drink size in the US is larger than in the US, but even so it's still smaller than the typical size drink people actually receive. If there were more awareness around standard drink sizes we might discover that Americans drink more than statistics capture by a lot (though probably not more than Germans)! In Germany most of my friends in the US would be considered alcoholics.
- shots are typically much larger in the US - about 2x-3x
- the standard beer size (for beer on tap) is usually a pint in the US. In Germany it's about a half pint! (That's why Germans can have a lunch beer)
- Canned wine is fairly popular in the US, but nobody realizes that this is essentially half of bottle of wine.
On a related note: most people definitely drive under the influence (legally drunk) in the US! :(
I grew up in Germany in the restaurant business (family business) and was a bar tender from a young age (albeit in a fancy restaurant with a few locals who'd sit at the bar). The most shots I've ever seen someone drink in an evening was 9 shots - my staff and I thought that person was a crazy alcoholic. Those shots are 2cl. When you compare that to the typical tequila shots in US bars it's basically ~3 shots (a little more), which people in their 20s and 30s tend to drink like it's no big deal.
I have lived several places in the Midwest, in SF, Chicago and of course traveled lots of places in the US for business and vacation.
Disclaimer: German in the US for 15+ years.
I'm writing this right now whilst drinking my German Import Pilsener to wind down from work :D
How do you even know about solitary drinking in the US? Why are you unaware of solitary drinking in France/Germany/Croatia?
I have no way of quantifying any of your observations.
I am aware of people with drinking problems in France, Germany and Croatia. It is easy for alcohol to periodically become a problem in people's lives.
I'm not trying to defend American culture at all. These observations read kind of comically though.
I would probably say that Germany isn't indicative of the Eurozone at all.
I'd sat the Binge Belt is US, UK, AU, DK, NO, IS, JP, KR
But I'd consider drinking daily or even weekly much.
Coffee, tea, and tobacco, became at least as widespread once global trade made that possible. Coca was late to the party because it doesn't grow well outside of its native region.
Cannabis is an odd one, in that it was extremely widespread and making solid inroads in Europe and North America, when it became a weapon for United States racial policy, and a jobs program for federal police after the repeal of Prohibition. Coca and cocaine got caught up in the same dragnet.
Opium and its derivatives are genuinely pernicious and attempts to normalize their use outside of medicine have been resisted repeatedly throughout history.
Which leaves psychedelics, which are... weird, and also were largely unknown until some anthropologists in the 40s and 50s drew attention to them.
The history of 'modern' drug prohibition owes more to politics than the inherent properties of the substances in question.
In an age where other beverages are as easily accessible for people living in the modern world, it’s utility isn’t there any more and you are left with all the downsides.
You get alcohol when fruit spoils. Our experience with it is quite literally as old as foraging. This doesn't tell us anything about how harmful or not harmful alcohol is.
As far as ubiquity, plant-based substances had to follow migration or trade routes to gain use outside of their native habitats. Alcohol was coextensive with any food .
You can definitely see the benefit for an ancient civilization, since you're able to store many more calories which allows you to grow a much larger population base. But like many things associated with the move to agrarian civilizations, being good for the civilization doesn't necessarilly correlate with being good for the individual.
Edit: Next time I'll do a cursory googling before commenting. This is apparently an existing hypothesis for common types of bacteria such as e coli, salmonella, etc in the drink itself, not in the body.
The addiction rate for cocaine/heroin/meth may be higher, but the negative effects of those drugs mostly stem from the high cost (theft) and insane profit margins (murder). If a heroin addict could get their supply for $5/day (and have it be pure heroin w no fentanyl) then nearly all of the negatives would disappear.
Meth has lot less sympathetic side effects than dextroamphetamine per unit of dopaminergic stimulation, this simple difference enables abuser to consume ridiculously large dose and those high doses are destructive.
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines
[41] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23688691/
[43] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3355623/
[45] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7299411/
From my experience with Vyvanse I find that amphetamines have a dose response function with linear and exponential steps. 15mg is barely perceptible, 30mg is like a coffee without the anxiety but it last 8 hours. 45mg is like 30mg but a little longer. 60mg in 2 doses (first pill at 7am and next one at 9am) is a perfect treatment against my ADD. Once I tried 90mg and it was terrible, I experienced bruxism, anxiety and hyperacidity for 18 hours. I am sure that I would develop the problems you listed if I were to take 90mg a day but 90mg of Vyvanse is supratherapeutic...
1: Link 41 is about abuse (supratherapeutic and frequent doses). Link 43 I can't comment as I don't have acces but it's an old paper from 1988... Link 45 is about abuse again. Link 46 is about accidental ingestion by a baby. (a therapeutic dose for a teenager is clearly supratherapeutic in a 8months infant) Link 47 is probably about abuse (the abstract talk of reversible consequences of dose escalation) but I don't have acces to the paper.
I went to an international school, so we'd get American kids coming in and realising that they could drink before graduating into a dry university. At least one of my friends got his stomach pumped after a massive binge.
I wonder whether the culture in the US encourages people to guzzle it all down at once to minimise the risk of getting caught.
I noticed something similar in the UK, where they do seem to somewhat enforce the drinking age of 18, and so when I got to uni here my new friends would act like they'd just discovered alcohol and get incredibly drunk.
Now it's not like kids in Europe never get drunk, but it's always available so not really seen as an alluring thing. On much of the continent it's also the kind of thing you might consume with your parents around, which is the ultimate excitement killer.
The night life hours being so few exacerbate that too
There are two possible relationships a person can have with alcohol - it is either primarily a food, or primarily a drug.
Americans have a hard time treating it as food, although thankfully that seems to be changing.
Funny, whenever I visit W Europe I find it pretty sad and people look pretty grumbling. America is a lot more lively.
I think of this Eurostory as a EU coping mechanism.
I honestly get sick when I drink more than three drinks within three hours.
It seems that continental Europe is the outlier.
[1] https://movendi.ngo/news/2019/04/18/study-germany-has-an-alc...
Can you clarify what you mean here? I was under the impression european habits of alcohol pairing takes much more space under this umbrella than, say, whether an american associates junk foods (pizza, wings) with beer.
My take (granted, I had quit drinking years prior): I know you guys can't drink off-base, but....that's where all the WOMEN are (the military officer ranks in our Service is ~94% males). I would expect your desire to get laid to exceed your desire to hide inside your alcohol-infused comfort zone....
My peers: Nah....if I can't drink alcohol I don't wanna go out to meet anyone.
The people I hang out with (even to this day) go out to get laid, and if they get DRUNK that's just a side-effect. Most guys I know go out to get drunk, and if they get LAID, that's just a side-effect.
Honest question: what is his realistic chance to get laid with non-prostitute? How much money would it cost to pay sex worker? I also suspect that going around bars while not drinking looking for girl to have sex with might involve a lot of rejection and a lot of effort.
> The people I hang out with (even to this day) go out to get laid,
I honestly never socialized with people like that. I had always stable relationships and most my friends tended to form those too. Not everyone is for quick hookups.
At the time, pretty high. The clubs and bars were very active, and "gaijin-hunter" Japanese women are notoriously easy. If you are halfway-attractive and at least a LITTLE charismatic, you should be able to snag a one-night stand or two, and then a girlfriend in.....6 weeks? That's assuming going out Friday/Saturday every weekend. If you aren't drinking alcohol, it's not that expensive either. If you end up with a relationship that lasts a few months or more, I consider that a pretty good ROI.
>>>How much money would it cost to pay sex worker?
Depending on service (incall/outcall) and location...$100-$300+.
>>>I also suspect that going around bars while not drinking looking for girl to have sex with might involve a lot of rejection and a lot of effort.
It does put you "not on the wavelength" of people when they are drunk, doubly so if they are kinda dumb too. You can overcome these hurdles by being attractive, and knowing the right conversational hooks to say in their native language to build rapport quickly and lazily. Building that skillset does take time, and brings other risks (PUA's call it "calibration"....in my experience, "calibrating" for Japanese women can over-fit your social skills for a small dataset, and then your Game suffers when you engage with women from different cultures).
>>>I honestly never socialized with people like that. I had always stable relationships and most my friends tended to form those too. Not everyone is for quick hookups.
90% of my wingmen have been in stable relationships. That's never stopped any of us from adding to our harems. If you have a wife, get a mistress. If you have a mistress, get a side-chick. If you have a side-chick, get a fuck-buddy. If you have all four of those, bang all of them during the week, so on the weekend you can get some head in your car in the parking lot from a new girl, who might be a suitable replacement for any of the last 3 of your regulars (I don't recommend replacing your wife with a club-rat...).
I had a roommate that kept his accountant side-chick for over 5 years, even after his wife found out. She paid his $20,000 bail when he was getting kicked out of the country, no questions asked. That said....those kind of reliable women are rarely found in bars/clubs, but if you never venture outside of your fortified American enclave because you can't consume alcohol in town, how would a guy ever find out either way?
To the ending, your friends are kind of guys I really dont want to meet. I kind of assumed it was all about single guys having causual fun, now I feel sorry for their wifes. I honestly think better about guys that are not getting laid at the base.
Getting beer was always the event.
Like going to a weekly bowling game. Socializing happens but you go there for bowling.
As a member of this target demographic, I would say that catering to American drinkers would be to provide a pretext to be at your establishment. You don't have to actually provide all that much, but if you provide a reason for being there that isn't, "Socialize with others" I bet you'd attract more Americans. In America we do "brewery tours" for example, but it doesn't even have to be related to alcohol itself ("good" music, board games, axe throwing, bumper cars, pub quiz, karaoke, etc.). What matters is that you're plausibly not there to "socialize", even though that's actually why you're there.
I used to drink with friends and in that country there was a custom that bars close at a given time at night, and then we would go to someone's apartment to drink more. I remember on one occasion we were sitting around in someone's kitchen maybe 8 people. And at one point I realize everyone was talking at the same time. Everyone was talking so no-one was listening. Everyone wanted to get their point across.
People defend both sides of this thesis often.
We probably drink a hell of a lot more in raw terms than the average American does.Two glasses of wine for dinner, another one in the evening, maybe some cognac to wind down, and so on. But it's for the most part not about getting drunk or coping with stress. I've got no illusions about the physical effects but speaking about addiction or being dysfunctional I've seen very little of it despite some people I know drinking enough to stun a mule probably.
The things that I noted were different in the US is how solitary everyone is, overworked and how little time people take for preparing food and just sitting at a table having a drink over conversation. People seem to drink to cope more, use it as a medicine rather than for pleasure or to enhance meals, and I think that turns very badly very quick.
That said I don't think solitary drinking is necessarily as bad as the article makes it out to be all the time, but it takes a certain personality. When you take drugs alone, not just alcohol, you need to be more mindful about why you do it.