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Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by fifticon on Thursday May 27, 2021 @02:38PM (#27306506)
I am aware I have almost no knowledge about dark matter in physics, but whenever it's mentioned, I can't help but think that our modern 'dark matter', is the 'ether of the 21st century'. That is, an interrim scientific theory that will eventually be completely replaced by revisions of our physics.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by da_chicken on Thursday May 27, 2021 @04:10PM (#27307686)
I mean, we need to have a convenient term for a phenomenon even if we don't understand it. What's the alternative? "The unnamed phenomenon were some astronomic bodies behave as though a vast quantity of matter were affecting them but that matter can't be otherwise detected or identified"?

In medicine, they often call it a "syndrome". A collection of symptoms that together form a known pattern that is often closely associated with a disease or disorder but has no understood cause or origin (although some syndromes continue to be called that after they are better understood).

How do you think we arrived at terms like "planets"? We noticed that some stars in the sky moved around while the rest didn't, and we called them "wandering stars". We still call them "atoms" even though that word means "indivisible".

Weather is full of such names: rain, thunder, lightning, wind, morning glory, dew, tornado, rainbow, etc. All these words for material phenomenon existed long before we knew how they worked.

So what's wrong with "dark matter" as a name?

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by colordrops on Thursday May 27, 2021 @04:40PM (#27308164)
I didn't read a negative judgment of the term in the grandparent comment, just an observation.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by da_chicken on Thursday May 27, 2021 @04:43PM (#27308213)
Yes, and I'm challenging that observation. "Making an observation" doesn't mean you're not subject to criticism or questioning.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by burnished on Thursday May 27, 2021 @05:03PM (#27308525)
You haven't meaningfully challenged anything they said, though. Your thing was an odd rant about the need to name things (not a hot take), and theirs seemed more focused, well

>>That is, an interrim scientific theory that will eventually be completely replaced by revisions of our physics.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by colordrops on Thursday May 27, 2021 @06:22PM (#27309314)
But you were reading criticism of the naming in the original comment, which wasn't there.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by fifticon on Saturday May 29, 2021 @06:00PM (#27328573)
No worry, I did not intend any criticism of 'dark matter'. I understand it as a placeholder concept for 'something we know amazingly little about, except that it appears to be in conflict with the naive version of our observations'. It reminds me of the very complex ways humans calculated the planetary motions, when they believed the sun revolved around the earth - once the proper relation was understood, a comparatively simpler model sufficed. As I understand it, we have plenty of guesses at what dark matter could be, including quantum particles that emit no energy we (currently) can observe. I believe the original theory of ether also sufficed in its time, until we had enough observations that contradicted that model. I'm not saying dark matter is wrong in any way, but it appears to me, it's a place-holder concept for until knowing what is _really_ going on, like 'planet X'.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by ASalazarMX on Thursday May 27, 2021 @08:16PM (#27310283)
> The unnamed phenomenon were some astronomic bodies behave as though a vast quantity of matter were affecting them but that matter can't be otherwise detected or identified"

How about "missing matter"? To non-astronomers, dark matter sounds like it has already been found and it doesn't emit light.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by tcskeptic on Thursday May 27, 2021 @08:54PM (#27310542)
It's not missing though, is it? It has the characteristic of having effects of mass but not being otherwise observable.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by ASalazarMX on Thursday May 27, 2021 @09:22PM (#27310724)
Other comments have suggested better names, based on the fact that we don't even know for sure that it's matter, just that gravity at large scale doesn't behave like it should.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by wumpus on Thursday May 27, 2021 @11:13PM (#27311351)
If you say "missing matter", the thing most physicists think of first is probably missing anti-matter, and then missing baryons. Not dark matter.

It's a bit late to suggest new nomenclature for something that's been around for many decades.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by dnautics on Thursday May 27, 2021 @06:40PM (#27309478)
> So what's wrong with "dark matter" as a name?

it encodes a normative, biased prejudgement about what we think explains the syndrome.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by karmakaze on Thursday May 27, 2021 @06:55PM (#27309620)
Exactly, the fact that it's a phenomenon gets lost--all we have to do is find the missing mass (X-Y problem) that's causing the gravitational effects.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by tracedddd on Thursday May 27, 2021 @06:44PM (#27309522)
What would you prefer the concept be called?
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by dnautics on Thursday May 27, 2021 @06:49PM (#27309575)
Gravitational anomalies, gravitational discrepancy, unexplained gravity effect? Hell, dark gravity, if you want.

Until the point where the observations are multimodal. Then I'd be more comfortable assigning provisionally normative names. Till then it should probably explicitly reference the fact that all observations are gravitational in nature.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by slowmovintarget on Thursday May 27, 2021 @11:29PM (#27311430)
Dark matter works just fine.

It needs to be "matter" in the cosmological sense [1] because of the ratio of protons and neutrons to photons produced during Big Bang nucleosythesis. We know the ratio of the number of protons to number of photons. We know the number of photons in the universe (most of them are in the CMB), and we therefore know the number of protons. That means we know the amount of "normal" matter in the universe, and it is far less than the total amount of matter in the universe (that must have survived from baryogenesis). This requires there to be "dark matter" in the universe.

The other effects like galaxy formation and stellar motion in galaxies are just things that might be caused by dark matter (though that's come into doubt).

Sean Carroll discusses it here: https://youtu.be/tZQadPmTd84?t=4642

[1] "Matter" in the cosmological sense is "stuff" that moves slower than the speed of light, as opposed to "energy" which moves at the speed of light.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by superduperycomb on Saturday May 29, 2021 @12:18AM (#27322998)
Those are all example of observable phenomena. Dark matter is an inference made by inconsistencies with theory. I think they’re vastly different because it overstates the certainty. Maybe I’m splitting hairs
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by MR4D on Thursday May 27, 2021 @07:46PM (#27310031)
Ether.

X-rays.

Black hole.

Dark matter.

I think it’s going to stick as a name even when the details have been largely worked out, especially considering the other examples I listed.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by caymanjim on Thursday May 27, 2021 @03:00PM (#27306779)
I think most academics studying dark matter are pretty upfront about not knowing what it is. The theories with the most fans tend to not be very specific about the source, but agree that it's most likely an "unknown something" with mass that causes gravity. There are some theories like MOND that instead postulate that there's no missing mass, but that our understanding of gravity needs to be altered at galactic scales.

In any case, it's a placeholder, not a specific theory. There are many candidate theories, but so far they're either untestable or the tests have had negative outcomes.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by UnpossibleJim on Thursday May 27, 2021 @03:43PM (#27307301)
Just to put it in context, I'll share one of my favorite (even though I think it's one of the more outlandish and less accepted):

In the Multiverse/Multidimensional universe theory, all of these dimensions aren't necessarily in different universes. Some are of different dimensions, laid over top of ours, but we can't see them because we can't perceive the dimensions they exist in. The only dimension that bleeds into ours, that we can track so far, is gravity. This is what we call "Dark matter". It is actually gravity leaking over from an "Nth" dimension laid over our own that we can't perceive.

Again, as to the veracity I can't say. And I wish I remembered to author, but I don't =/ maybe I'll look it up later and make an annotation.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by 867-5309 on Thursday May 27, 2021 @06:35PM (#27309436)
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by mr_mitm on Thursday May 27, 2021 @05:48PM (#27308981)
Except the very first experiment that was supposed to confirm the ether showed that there is no ether, while every astrophysical observation we made on any scale [1] confirmed that there is dark matter.

[1] https://www.twitter.com/seanmcarroll/status/1371141258236764...

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by dnautics on Thursday May 27, 2021 @06:43PM (#27309517)
We don't have any confirmation that it exists, we have more observations that Newton's law is wrong. Moreover, these observations collectively are unimodal; to date we only have observations of more gravitational discrepancies, not corroborating phenomena which correlate to the existing discrepancies.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by pdonis on Thursday May 27, 2021 @07:58PM (#27310131)
> we have more observations that Newton's law is wrong

No, we don't. We have observations that show that the motion of stars in galaxies is not what we would predict if we used our current laws of gravity with a distribution of matter that matches just what is visible to us.

There are two possible hypotheses to explain these observations:

(1) There is matter present that is not visible to us;

(2) Our current laws of gravity are wrong and need to be modified.

"Dark matter" is basically a name for #1; "MOND" and similar models are in category #2.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by hitpointdrew on Thursday May 27, 2021 @04:57PM (#27308439)
I also have almost no knowledge about dark matter in physics, and maybe I am a complete moron. But what do you think is more likely, there is this matter out there that no one has been able to find in decades of searching, or the mainstream assumptions/math on gravity are wrong/incomplete? I am going with the later.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by pdonis on Thursday May 27, 2021 @07:53PM (#27310092)
> what do you think is more likely, there is this matter out there that no one has been able to find in decades of searching, or the mainstream assumptions/math on gravity are wrong/incomplete?

You are mis-stating the real issue here.

The distribution of matter is already a free parameter in our current theory of gravity, General Relativity. GR in no way requires that all matter be visible to humans.

The "no one has been able to find" thing is not a problem for GR, it's a problem for the Standard Model of particle physics, which does not contain any particles that dark matter could be made out of. But most physicists already believe that there are more kinds of particles than the SM describes, we just haven't figured out how to make them in accelerators so we can study them in a controlled experimental fashion, and we haven't figured out any "smoking gun" signature that will tell us if such particles exist out there in the universe. "Dark matter" is really just a name for those kinds of particles that are already believed to exist anyway, we just can't detect them with the technology we currently have. But the technology we currently have is very limited.

So the real question you should be asking is, what do you think is more likely, that there are particles that aren't included in the Standard Model of particle physics--which is already believed to be the case anyway--or that General Relativity is wrong in its description of the dynamics of galaxies, even though this is a domain in which GR has already passed stringent experimental tests with predictions accurate to many decimal places?

I'm going with the former.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by mr_mitm on Thursday May 27, 2021 @05:44PM (#27308940)
It's interesting that this sentiment almost exclusively comes from people with almost no knowledge about dark matter.

What do you think is more likely, there is a theory that makes all observations look exactly like there is invisible matter without actually being invisible matter, or that there is invisible matter? I am going with the latter.

I also do not understand why laypeople are of the opinion that all massive particles must interact electromagnetically. If you are open to the idea that there is a massive particle that doesn't, you got dark matter.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by jug on Thursday May 27, 2021 @07:33PM (#27309921)
MOND theories etc. like this has fallen kind of out of favor because it’s just so hard to adapt our theory of gravity to resolve this.

It’s surprising how often this topic pops up. I think it’s based on a misjudgment that simply missing something in gravity follows Occams Razor better but it actually seems to be the opposite.

I think the killer is that dark matter seems to not just hold galaxies together (given their “too high” rotational speeds), but also clump together, and also sometimes be missing in galaxies and other times overwhelm galaxies.

It’s super hard to adapt the well proven theory of gravity to especially localized phenomena.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by generalizations on Thursday May 27, 2021 @03:15PM (#27306939)
I mean, the name is literally 'the stuff we can't see'. Dark matter is very much just a question mark looking for an explanation.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by iainmerrick on Thursday May 27, 2021 @05:02PM (#27308504)
The word “stuff” there is exactly the point. It’s a lot more specific than “just a question mark” -- the hypothesis is that it’s some exotic form of matter.

If something like MOND gains popularity and there’s no longer a need to postulate invisible matter, it would be fair to say that dark matter is incorrect and outdated, just like ether or phlogiston.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by generalizations on Thursday May 27, 2021 @05:34PM (#27308847)
That would be fair. However, from what I've read MOND is relatively unlikely. If its proponents can address the biggest difficulties (e.g. not every galaxy appears to have "dark matter") and make it somewhat more feasible, then I'd agree the name is insufficiently broad.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by dnautics on Thursday May 27, 2021 @06:45PM (#27309544)
Not really, MOND and the like falls into the category of "dark matter theory", and that's the problem with the name.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by pdonis on Thursday May 27, 2021 @07:59PM (#27310137)
> MOND and the like falls into the category of "dark matter theory"

No, it doesn't. See my response to your other post upthread about the two hypotheses. "Dark matter" is one hypothesis; "MOND" and friends are the other.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by raattgift on Thursday May 27, 2021 @09:05PM (#27310626)
No, it is unfair to call MOND (and at least much of "the like") as a dark matter theory, because it manifestly generates a solution (or solutions) in the absence of any matter at all.

MOND is characterized by an interpolating function between its fundamental constant a_0 and acceleration, such that in the "deep-MOND" regime, F = m \frac{a^2}{a_0} rather than Newton's F = ma.

Both MOND and Newton work in everywhere-vacuum, and in everywhere-vacuum perturbed by a point mass. Neither the vacuum case nor the point mass case qualifies as a "dark matter theory" any more than the vacuum Schwarzschild solution of General Relativity does. These are model universes where one can calculate a Gauss law for gravity.

MOND would behave differently for deep deep extragalactic space with small icy body moving around a large gassy body than Newton would, or than we would get from e.g. a roughly Einstein-de Sitter solution.

Milgrom has pursued several relativistic corrections to the simple MOND formula, and they generally allow for solutions where the stress-energy tensor is everywhere 0, and everywhere 0 except for one point. Milgrom originated MOND. He has collected numerous thoughts and many links at http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/The_MOND_paradigm_of_mod...

When applied to large systems like galaxies and especially galaxy clusters, Milgrom's corrections may be insufficient, and other corrections (catalogued well in https://arxiv.org/abs/1112.3960 section 7). Several of these are very hard to make work with the stress-energy tensor everywhere zero, and those (certainly not all of them) one might ungraciously call "just another dark matter theory". On the other hand, several of these theories admit plausible gravitational radiation in the total absence of matter, just as does General Relativity. (Gravitational radiation is not a feature of Newton or the simple original Milgrom formula.) McGaugh runs tritonstation and is a well known sceptic of particle dark matter.

Relativistic dark matter theories deliberately introduce nonzeros into the stress-energy tensor. You need a distribution of dark matter and trace out how that generates curvature, or you don't have a (relativistic) dark matter theory. You can also of course set out a distribution of cold dark matter and see how it behaves under F = ma or F = m \frac{a^2}{a_0}. Neither MOND nor Newton requires dark matter; likewise neither MOND nor Newton is incompatible with dark matter. Likewise, General Relativity doesn't require dark matter. But one gets more physically realistic solutions at a wide range of scales when one adds dark matter to a defined large-scale distribution of matter and radiation. MOND or the various attempts at generally covariant Milgrom gravitation would also behave differently when one adds dark matter to a large-scale distribution of matter and radiation. That is unlikely to produce more physically realistic solutions to a wide range of scales, however.

Indeed, Milgrom et al's most concrete argument is that their formula for gravitation is worse if one adds in a distribution of dark matter, and that their formula is better than e.g. a Lemaître-Tolman-Bondi solution equipped with a distribution of cold dark matter. That's as much a non-dark-matter theory as I think it is possible to have!

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by dnautics on Thursday May 27, 2021 @10:28PM (#27311108)
Forgive me, but I was under the impression the phrase "dark matter theory" can confusingly refer to something that generally explains galactic rotation curves whether or not it's a theory that involves dark matter. What would you call the general category of theories which explain galactic rotation curve deviations?
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by raattgift on Thursday May 27, 2021 @11:25PM (#27311413)
Maybe just solutions for non-Keplerian redshifts, see http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Astro/darmat.html second image and bracketing paragraphs.

As in computing, naming things is hard.

The redshifting things are mostly molecular gas clouds which we would expect would orbit in a Keplerian fashion given the overall distribution of luminous matter and occluding/extinguishing dust visible in galaxies. Astrophysicists love hydrogen gas clouds because they ionize easily from background emitters (stars, quasars) producing very sharp spectral lines, and you can pick up their changes by looking on different sides of an edge-on spiral or are at nearly perpendicular angles to the rotational axis of spheroidals. For giant ellipticals, which have practically zero axial rotation, an instrument that gets a sweeping view of them will see a more chaotic red-and-blue shifting of the Lyman-alpha hydrogen line, rather than an obvious gradient between advancing and retreating edges. (Face-on spirals often also have gas clouds on excursions back and forth in front of the disk plane, where "forth" means "towards us" means "relatively blueshifted" and that's hard to explain without a halo rather than a ring of dark matter).

So really it's a question explaining the non-Keplerian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peculiar_velocity of structures from ionized hydrogen to molecular clouds to supernovae with highly predictable light curves.

While basic MOND can explain edge-on spirals and axis-perpendicular spheroidals and lenticulars, it does a bad job with face-on spirals, ellipticals, and lots of other unusual shapes in the galaxy zoo. It also doesn't do well with entire clusters, where there are enormous gas clouds between the member galaxies, and often a bright quasar (or at least central galaxy) really lighting them up. Corrections to basic MOND patch some of these up, mostly starting by adding extra terms to the initial basic Milgrom formula which modified F = ma.

A ball-like distribution of dark matter around these very large structures (galaxies, clusters) on the other hand is a decent explanation, with the major drawback that the only sufficiently transparent stuff we've produced in labs is simply too light to stay constrained within these structures (electron neutrinos and their antis would fly away to infinity, for example, rather than stick around in a hierarchy of halo/shell/ball structures; free neutrons aren't stable). We also don't have a really good explanation about why these proposed dark matter structures don't have a strong density gradient leading to grossly non-Keplerian orbits of stars in the cores of galaxies (including our own). That's why you get wildly speculative ideas like phase transitions, "dark chemistry", dark-matter/dark-matter annihilation, and so on. There are similar questions about why the outer reaches of dark matter halos don't blow off into infinity rather than lingering around. ( See the excellent III A and III E of Adams & Laughlin https://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9701131 or the Binney & Tremaine textbook https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691130279/ga... )

Good explanations should cover the entire lifetime of a galaxy including the things that lead up to it and its ultimate decay. This also means it should be good for the oldest galaxies that we can see. It also means that as we get better at simulating initial value problems we can take a large number of observed quantities of a highly-redshifted galaxy and evolve that initial snapshot step by step such that after trillions of steps we end up with something that looks remarkably like a galaxy with low redshift. We're not really there yet. Work harder, supercomputer builders! :D :D

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by dnautics on Friday May 28, 2021 @12:16AM (#27311673)
The problem, IIRC, is that we don't have an explanation of why those distributions of DM are balls around galaxies and not balls in the intergalactic medium. It seems like the distribution of lambda-CDM could be anything. So much so, that people are postulating that the core of the milky way galaxy could be an ultradense ball of lambda-CDM.

https://phys.org/news/2019-12-dark-center-milky.html

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by raattgift on Friday May 28, 2021 @01:06AM (#27311910)
> we don't have an explanation of why those distributions of DM are balls around galaxies and not balls in the intergalactic medium

We do. Structure formation is part of the standard cosmology. https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/Planck... https://kipac.stanford.edu/research/cosmic-structure etc etc.

Matter fell into place wherever it could, forming overdense areas. More matter tended to fall into overdense areas from underdense areas, and this allowed the underdense areas to expand more easily while the overdense areas were constrained to expand more slowly or even to collapse. Dark matter, not being able to collide and radiate away the collision-energy collapses much more slowly than heavy matter.

Dark matter connects fluctuations in the cosmic microwave background with large scale structures -- the cosmic web -- extremely well, as long as it moves nonrelativistically (that's why it's "cold" compared to electron neutrinos which move ultrarelativistically) and collapses very slowly.

> ultradense ball of lambda-CDM

Mu?

Lambda (capital greek letter) is the term that encodes the expansion of space and the consequent separation of clusters of galaxies from one another. It's irrelevant within clusters of galaxies, let alone individual galaxies. The solar system is not expanding at all, and neither is Manhattan.

Lambda is also a constant. It doesn't form balls, there are no overdensities or underdensities, it has the same tiny value at every point in spacetime.

CDM is cold dark matter, and your phys.org link discusses evidence for a possible explanation about why there isn't a high density "ball" of dark matter in the galactic centre compared to around our solar system: maybe dark matter can interact electromagnetically under conditions found in galactic cores. The electromagnetic interaction in this study would produce a gamma ray and the vanishing of a dark matter particle. This could be some complicated way dark matter can self-annihilate in the presence of very hot standard model gas like that around black holes or produced by supernovae, for instance. Whatever the specifics, this conversion of dark matter to gammas would keep the central dark matter relatively sparse.

(Other mechanisms for avoiding high dark matter densities in galaxy cores are available. These do have a good collective name: galactic outflow, of which dark matter heating and dark matter decay are subcategories that are at the root of your phys.org link. Generally dark matter turns into hot matter, or drags hot matter along with it for a ride. Outflow must enrich the metallicity of stars far from galactic cores, and quench core star formation, and these generate observables for individual proposed mechanisms, and astronomers are already happily gathering up data that probe those observables. Good proposals for outflow mechanisms also work on the scale of structures like the Coma Cluster).

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by Hemospectrum on Thursday May 27, 2021 @03:02PM (#27306791)
You've got plenty of scientists as company. There are cute names like WIMP and MOND for different types of hypotheses about what the heck dark matter actually is, or how to explain what's going on if it doesn't exist at all. Each of these is a huge headache for astrophysicists in one respect or another.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by keithnz on Thursday May 27, 2021 @05:48PM (#27308991)
Sabine is a great science (physics) communicator to the "masses", she recently did an update on dark matter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_qJptwikRc
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by Hypx_ on Thursday May 27, 2021 @06:18PM (#27309271)
Summary: Both dark matter and modified gravity are true. Could be caused by wave-particle duality.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by interestica on Thursday May 27, 2021 @03:07PM (#27306840)
> 'ether of the 21st century'

Or 'caloric' or 'phlogiston'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superseded_theories_in_science

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by tigerlily on Thursday May 27, 2021 @06:35PM (#27309437)
Phlogiston, now there's a word I haven't seen in a while. A lot of big names on that list of superseded theories by the way :)
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by kiba on Thursday May 27, 2021 @05:25PM (#27308753)
Dark matter is not a theory, it's a name for an unexplained phenomena.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by passivate on Thursday May 27, 2021 @03:05PM (#27306818)
But in modern science we differentiate between facts/hypotheses/laws/theories. What you're referring to is a hypothesis - and those should be replaced with a more concrete explanation - once we have it. I don't quite understand your point about connecting it to ether though. I can't think of any established theory in modern science that was completely replaced - but I'm not a physicist either.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by salty_biscuits on Thursday May 27, 2021 @04:58PM (#27308450)
As a counterpoint, Neptune and Pluto were "dark matter" prior to confirmation with observations. They were theorized to exist due to their perturbations to observed motion of known planets.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by dnautics on Thursday May 27, 2021 @06:47PM (#27309554)
Well by that token so was the discrepancy in the precession of mercury (which was not, as it turns out,matter).
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by pdonis on Thursday May 27, 2021 @08:02PM (#27310155)
> so was the discrepancy in the precession of mercury

No, it wasn't, because, as you note, that observation was accounted for by adopting new laws of gravity, not by adding more matter to the distribution of matter we used in our model. Those are two different things.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by nimish on Thursday May 27, 2021 @09:06PM (#27310637)
It was thought for decades the anomalous precession of Mercury could be due to matter, including an entirely new planet, Vulcan.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by pdonis on Thursday May 27, 2021 @09:47PM (#27310865)
Yes, that was one hypothesis, but it didn't turn out to be the correct one. The correct hypothesis was that Newtonian gravity was wrong and had to be replaced by General Relativity. That hypothesis is not a "dark matter" hypothesis. But the poster I was responding to, dnautics, is claiming (not just here but elsewhere in this thread) that it is.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by dnautics on Thursday May 27, 2021 @10:25PM (#27311091)
That's exactly the point. It was a dark matter hypothesis until they found out it wasn't actually matter. Physicists couldn't go back in time and tell themselves, hey, this isn't actually matter.

By analogy suppose we find out in 35 years that some non-lambda-cdm, non-particle theory is correct? It would be revisionist to say we didn't believe in dark matter today.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by pdonis on Friday May 28, 2021 @01:34PM (#27318253)
> It was a dark matter hypothesis until they found out it wasn't actually matter.

If you mean that nobody considered modifying the theory of gravity to explain the precession until Einstein and General Relativity, that is not correct. By the 1890s pretty much everyone had given up on finding another planet and a number of astronomers were considering modifications to the law of gravity.

In any case, you are shifting your ground from the comments you have made elsewhere in this thread. Elsewhere in this thread, you have been claiming that "dark matter hypothesis" includes the hypothesis that we should change the laws of gravity instead of changing the matter distribution in our models. Now you are admitting that those are two different things, which is the point I have been trying to make all along.

> suppose we find out in 35 years that some non-lambda-cdm, non-particle theory is correct? It would be revisionist to say we didn't believe in dark matter today.

"Believe in" is the wrong term. Dark matter is a hypothesis (just as suggesting there was another planet causing Mercury's excess orbital precession was a hypothesis), which appears to be the one most cosmologists currently think will end up being the right one. But that does not mean anyone claims that it is the only hypothesis, or that that hypothesis includes the hypothesis that we should modify the laws of gravity. The latter is understood by all cosmologists to be a separate hypothesis. Just as modifying the laws of gravity to explain Mercury's excess orbital precession was understood by all at the time to be a separate hypothesis.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by dnautics on Friday May 28, 2021 @08:51PM (#27322190)
all hypotheses fundamentally are a belief system, it does no good to assert otherwise.

> you have been claiming that "dark matter hypothesis"

No. I have claimed that the class of dark matter theories includes those which reject the existence of "dark matter" under the (possibly incorrect) assumption that the historical term "dark matter theory" refers to any theory that explains galactic rotation curves, as coined by Zwicky and cataloged by Rubin. In general, "A theory of X" can certainly reject X, and replace it with something else.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by pdonis on Saturday May 29, 2021 @03:54PM (#27327806)
> I have claimed that the class of dark matter theories includes those which reject the existence of "dark matter"

And this claim is incorrect. "Dark matter" is a particular hypothesis for explaining the discrepancy in galaxy rotation curves (and other observations as well, such as features of the CMB that cannot be explained with a model that only includes the matter visible to us). It is not just another name for the discrepancy itself, or for any theory that claims to explain the discrepancy by any mechanism whatever.

> under the (possibly incorrect) assumption that the historical term "dark matter theory" refers to any theory that explains galactic rotation curves

And this is an incorrect assumption. That's what I've been saying all along. See above.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by RedComet on Thursday May 27, 2021 @08:23PM (#27310332)
Ether very much exists. Its just now referred to as emptiness or "the vacuum of space".
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by 1_player on Friday May 28, 2021 @02:13AM (#27312266)
It doesn't. Aether was supposed to be an element, substance that filled the emptiness of space, not the emptiness itself.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by RedComet on Friday May 28, 2021 @02:42PM (#27319019)
You seem to be mistakenly conflating the modern conception of chemical elements with classical philosophical notions of elements.
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by Ono-Sendai on Thursday May 27, 2021 @08:32PM (#27310403)
Also known as fields (as in fields from quantum field theory)
Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by megablast on Thursday May 27, 2021 @08:32PM (#27310406)
>I am aware I have almost no knowledge about dark matter in physics

Thank you for introducing your comment like this so I can give it the true weight it deserves.

Re:New dark matter map reveals cosmic mystery by claytongulick on Thursday May 27, 2021 @05:29PM (#27308788)
Even "Ether" has come back around a bit in certain circles. It's not called that anymore, I think it's called the "Grid" or something similar. Milo Wolff discusses some of this in his WSM theories, IIRC.