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Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by WalterBright on Friday May 21, 2021 @05:40AM (#27232067)
> Over-the-air software updates

There's the fundamental problem right there. Over the air software updates means malware can always be installed.

One day, security engineers may remember (or reinvent) critical technology from the 1970s. This was when, to write to the ROMs, there was a physical electrical switch called "write enable".

Now, if the car's embedded systems have a physical write-enable switch, then malware won't survive a reboot.

Next, have the system reboot every time the car is started.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by px43 on Friday May 21, 2021 @10:23AM (#27234330)
No no no.

The reason you hear about security flaws in newer cars with OTA updates is because research on unpatchable cars is regularly silenced. Multiple friends of mine who thought it would be fun to look into bluetooth security in cars have had their work shut down by law enforcement and teams of lawyers, and told to back off.

I'd estimate that at least 90% of cars on the road without OTA updates are vulnerable to some sort of Bluetooth based attack that will never get fixed. Your "write enable" trick does more harm than good in these scenarios.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by swiley on Friday May 21, 2021 @10:37AM (#27234520)
Maybe critical systems shouldn't have wireless transceivers (especially Bluetooth, the implementations seem to be full of bugs and CVEs.)
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by paulryanrogers on Friday May 21, 2021 @11:15AM (#27235118)
Exactly. Why are they not air gapping everything that controls the multi-ton beast?
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by mysterydip on Friday May 21, 2021 @11:45AM (#27235527)
Short answer: because it was easier.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by paulryanrogers on Friday May 21, 2021 @09:19PM (#27242247)
Aren't vehicles and their safety capabilities regulated? Just because new cars are fly-by-wire shouldn't mean the control mechanisms are suddenly exempt.

Steering wheels made of cardboard would be easier to manufacture, yet they'd fail safety inspection.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by nonameiguess on Friday May 21, 2021 @12:35PM (#27236278)
An FM/AM antenna is a wireless receiver. Not a transceiver (though CB is and is still common in long-haul trucking), but still, it's always been possible for someone to hijack the channel and send an unwanted signal into your speakers. That's how pirate radio worked for a century. If all an attacker can do is send sound into your cabin, that isn't a meaningful vulnerability. They could do that with a megaphone.

If car makers are actually hooking the bluetooth chip up to anything except the sound system, that's the problem. Although, assuming a class 2 device, it only has a 10 meter range. If an attacker is that close and wants to shut down your car, they can use a nail strip.

The real problem here is hooking up WWAN to control software.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by HPsquared on Friday May 21, 2021 @12:55PM (#27236606)
The trouble is, the sound system is inevitably connected to the rest of the car. For example, in most cars the volume automatically increases with vehicle speed to compensate for increased road noise.

These connections could be physically 'one-way' but in practice most modules are simply wired in parallel on a CAN bus and something like the radio would be set up to send data to the car's CAN bus (for diagnostic purposes at least).

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by barefootcoder on Friday May 21, 2021 @06:09PM (#27240590)
More than just speed sensitive volume now. Replacing the stereo in my van requires a conversion box (Maestro) that deals with the various car settings that are done through the stereo, such as dome lights out duration, dash clock setting, auto door locking, etc.

The stereo is way too tightly coupled with the rest of the vehicle.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by swiley on Friday May 21, 2021 @12:40PM (#27236367)
All they need to get a bluetooth transmitter within a 10 meter range is a shell on your phone, and those are very common.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by WalterBright on Friday May 21, 2021 @02:58PM (#27238375)
Cars go in for service. They can be updated then, with the mechanic pressing the "write enable" switch.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by Aerroon on Friday May 21, 2021 @11:48AM (#27235582)
Well, maybe cars shouldn't have Bluetooth in the first place? Also, it's not like these updates are ever going to fix the situation. They'll just be slightly less vulnerable.

Not to mention that updates can obviously brick things. Imagine waking up one day and finding out that your car is bricked due to some update.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by thebean11 on Friday May 21, 2021 @12:07PM (#27235872)
I don't really think that's the moral of the story, Bluetooth in car stereos brings value to people, many use it. You could fix this pretty easily with more separation between the stereo and the "important" components.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by Aerroon on Friday May 21, 2021 @03:10PM (#27238558)
Well, you could buy an aftermarket stereo with Bluetooth then. Something that's not integrated in any way with the rest of the car other than power.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by thebean11 on Friday May 21, 2021 @04:48PM (#27239780)
..sure? The average person who buys a car does not want to do that though, so selling stereo-less cars is completely unrealistic.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by HPsquared on Friday May 21, 2021 @12:56PM (#27236637)
Not having Bluetooth would cause accidents, as more people would use their phones while driving.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by m463 on Friday May 21, 2021 @04:13PM (#27239302)
Actually, by default having your car connected to cellular, wifi, bluetooth and more is the problem.

But car owners are not given a choice, and most systems are then gradually engineered to depend on online access to function.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by rwallace on Friday May 21, 2021 @08:02PM (#27241578)
Now I'm curious; who exactly told them to back off, and why?
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by userbinator on Friday May 21, 2021 @09:41AM (#27233874)
Why software updates, especially remote ones, are even necessary for the safety-critical bits of a car is a problem too. Entertainment systems and such might be "acceptable" to follow the current trends in declining software quality and "fix it later" mentality, but core functionality like engine controls, steering, and brakes should definitely not be developed that way.

The conspiracy theorists might say "so they can slowly degrade the performance, in the name of environmental protection"...

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by cptskippy on Friday May 21, 2021 @11:22AM (#27235214)
A more recent example was GM limited charging capacity on the Bolt when they identified a production issue that could result in a fire.

I bought a Honda once that was never brought in for a service recall and thus had an issue I had to pay the dealer to fix because it was outside of the recall window.

Tesla was able to push an OTA update to the Model 3 to improve performance after a CR article criticizing it's braking distance.

I think OTA or remote updates should be possible, and I think it should be something the owner of the vehicle has control over.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by nonameiguess on Friday May 21, 2021 @12:39PM (#27236357)
That still doesn't need to happen over the air. It can work the way a BIOS update does. If you want to update over a network, have at it, but it should be possible for them to just send you a file and you can flash that directly by plugging into a USB port. No need to go to a dealer for a flaw that can be handled by a software patch, but also no need to expose your vehicle control systems over a WWAN.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by nexuist on Friday May 21, 2021 @03:32PM (#27238836)
Relying on users to install security and safety updates is 0% effective.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by userbinator on Friday May 21, 2021 @08:06PM (#27241618)
Recalls work just fine, because in e.g. replacing a defective airbag, they don't also decide to swap your engine with a smaller one or repaint the interior and rearrange all the controls. It's mainly the forcing of unwanted extra changes that has caused people to refuse updates, and that is IMHO a problem that the software industry has entirely self-inflicted.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by _trampeltier on Friday May 21, 2021 @06:33AM (#27232346)
Hardware switches are coming again. We have lots of Energy Meters from Siemens (PAC3200) with Ethernet. The new model PAC3220 I got a few weeks ago, does have a hardware switch for write access from network, just like the old S7 PLCs had RUN and RUN-P (write access) 20 years ago. We have a VLAN just for the energy meters, each Meter a separate switch/firewall port, just open ports for Modbus-TCP and no client-client connection allowed. Same for PLCs.

https://mall.industry.siemens.com/mall/en/us/Catalog/Product...

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by WalterBright on Friday May 21, 2021 @05:44AM (#27232092)
Security Engineers: allowing over the air software updates is FUNDAMENTALLY UNSOUND for anything that lives depend on.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by eplanit on Friday May 21, 2021 @10:09AM (#27234148)
Security engineers, unfortunately, have a weaker voice at the table than do the marketers and bean-counters.

The more secure means would be to require the car be taken to a dealership -- but that's costly to the auto maker (they have to pay the dealers for updates they apply), and is deemed an inconvenience to the customer. They worry about the friction on the customer, and the cost.

With OTA updates, much of the security relies on using signed images. The SoCs in IVI systems are fused with the auto maker's key.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by bumby on Friday May 21, 2021 @12:22PM (#27236099)
>marketers and bean-counters

Unfortunately, it's somewhat unfair to always blame the non-engineering folks. Many times is other engineering domains that run counter to good security. In my experience, cost or schedule are the leading factors but sometimes engineers want to push for certain features that are not compatible with good safety or security practices.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by sneak on Friday May 21, 2021 @05:45AM (#27232098)
Remote no-interaction autoupdate is a remote code execution vulnerability, even if well-intentioned and cryptographically signed.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by WalterBright on Friday May 21, 2021 @05:51AM (#27232127)
And yet security engineers, in a kind of circular madness, demand remote updating so they can update their protections against remote updating.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by fdroidmstrrce on Friday May 21, 2021 @08:57AM (#27233434)
Well Tesla does it and their customers love waiting hours for software updates (I'm not being sarcastic, this is literally what we found through benchmarking)

I kept pleading that we don't have the marketing that Tesla has, our customers don't want to think about updates. Not to mention OTA costs money. Tesla can do it because they are sinking money and only have a few hundred thousand cars. My company sells millions of cars per year, OTA is significantly more expensive.

I'm not saying my company does OTA often, but the word Tesla cones up more often than it should.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by jsight on Friday May 21, 2021 @09:48AM (#27233953)
> Well Tesla does it and their customers love waiting hours for software updates (I'm not being sarcastic, this is literally what we found through benchmarking)

I've done several OTAs on a Tesla. Most were about 1 month apart, and my longest update took 28 minutes. The average is closer to 15.

> Tesla can do it because they are sinking money and only have a few hundred thousand cars.

I won't get into whether they are sinking money, but they have about 1.6 million cars.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by pmontra on Friday May 21, 2021 @11:03AM (#27234932)
> my longest update took 28 minutes

How does it work? Is it automatic during the night when the car is parked and you're asleep (that would be ideal) or does it updates when you start the car and would be ready to go (that would be a nightmare)? Maybe something in between.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by eyesee on Friday May 21, 2021 @12:10PM (#27235907)
You get an update prompt on screen (and on your phone). The car asks you to schedule a time to install (normally 1 AM) or allows you to update immediately.

When an update is triggered (manually or on a timer) you get a 2-minute countdown to restart and then it will install.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by barefootcoder on Friday May 21, 2021 @06:12PM (#27240624)
So “we had to call an ambulance because the car was installing updates” is a real potential scenario?
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by CrazyStat on Friday May 21, 2021 @10:08AM (#27234136)
> I've done several OTAs on a Tesla. Most were about 1 month apart, and my longest update took 28 minutes. The average is closer to 15.

Interesting. My Model X always estimates 25 but it's usually closer to an hour.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by amelius on Friday May 21, 2021 @09:38AM (#27233828)
Just give me a thumbdrive to perform the update.

Also make sure I can use my older thumbdrives to "downgrade" to a previous version.

That would be perfect. Thanks.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by Tagbert on Friday May 21, 2021 @02:27PM (#27237962)
How do you validate that a thumbdrive sent to you is actually from the vendor? Is that really more secure than a properly encrypted OAT update? Security has lots of blind corners.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by WalterBright on Friday May 21, 2021 @03:05PM (#27238487)
Good question. How many hackers send me malware via email? Every day. How many hackers send me a thumb drive? Zero.

The thing is, thumb drives cost money, and mailing things cost money. Mass hack attacks rely on not costing the attacker any money.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by PinguTS on Friday May 21, 2021 @06:32AM (#27232343)
All OEMs tried not do it. But as Tesla did it, all other OEMs got blamed, because they don't do. "Look how lame their tech is, they even can't do OTA, which even every iPhone can."

That is the problem and that is the reason why every OEM will support OTA in the near future.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by px43 on Friday May 21, 2021 @10:31AM (#27234447)
Please don't shit on Tesla for being the first car company to actually fix bugs. I've worked in automotive infosec, and it SUUCKS. Before Tesla, security issues were dealt with by layers threatening to sue the shit out of anyone who publishes anything. What Tesla did moved the industry forward by decades. I never worked at Tesla, but were I was at, we were all super grateful that they finally set the precedent to take security seriously.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by Grim-444 on Friday May 21, 2021 @12:13PM (#27235948)
Instead of relying on a company to properly secure their ridiculously over-electronic, over-networked, software-based vehicles, I'd rather just keep driving an older vehicle which just doesn't have any of that in the first place. I have no need for any of that, it doesn't add any value for me.

I honestly don't know what I'm going to do in the future, there's no chance I'm ever going to buy a modern "car", it's going to get tougher and tougher to keep a real vehicle running after enough decades have passed. Of course a non-modern car is infinitely easier for the average individual person to maintain and keep running so I'll be able to keep going for a long time.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by KptMarchewa on Friday May 21, 2021 @12:26PM (#27236157)
Or, maybe, keep your paranoia in check?
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by NeuNeurosis on Friday May 21, 2021 @03:59PM (#27239156)
How is this paranoia? The ratcheting up of software sophistication does not necessarily add value to the average buyer. What it does do is add cost to repairs for both complex systems/parts and labor. This added complexity and cost make it prohibitive for the average owner to fix or even diagnose problems as the auto industry evolves. This isn't about being paranoid its about being economically conscious of the cost imposed by sophistication.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by jsight on Friday May 21, 2021 @09:49AM (#27233964)
Well, that and going into the dealer for a simple software recall is really bad for the consumer. I've had it happen with other cars and its just not a good experience. Add that the dealer always has an upsell ready and its even worse.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by CrazyStat on Friday May 21, 2021 @10:10AM (#27234160)
Exactly this. If they would mail me a USB stick with the update so I could do it myself I'd happily do that, but driving 20-30 minutes to the dealer, waiting for the update, and then driving back home is an enormous waste of time.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by briffle on Friday May 21, 2021 @12:02PM (#27235805)
Dodge/Chrysler/Ram did that a few years ago when some researchers showed how they could take over a Jeep Grand Cherokee via the 4G connection in the entertainment center, and apply brakes and gas. I got a USB stick in the mail, with instructions on how to use it.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by Tagbert on Friday May 21, 2021 @02:26PM (#27237946)
Though how sure were you that it was Chrysler that sent you that USB stick? Not that I don’t think it was legit but is that really more secure than an encrypted OTA update?
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by WalterBright on Friday May 21, 2021 @03:08PM (#27238519)
> Though how sure were you that it was Chrysler that sent you that USB stick?

For the same reason you never get malware USB sticks in the mail to stick into your computer. It costs money.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by bumby on Friday May 21, 2021 @12:27PM (#27236167)
How much of this is due to the nature of software being changed so often? We do this very thing with hardware recalls on our vehicles, but my hunch is we tolerate it because it happens so rarely and people more easily and intuitively understand how hardware can cause a bad day.

I'd be curious on the HN perspective. Are we less willing to accept this from software because it's taken as a given that when "it's just software" changes are easy? Does it imply that the software process (particularly requirements and testing) are not as robust as with hardware processes, leading to more frequent updates? Does it imply we are overly reliant on software to mitigate hardware issues because "it's easier"? (I'm thinking, in part, of the 737-Max issue for the last one).

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by jerf on Friday May 21, 2021 @09:44AM (#27233920)
I expect them to make the case to the relevant people instead that it's a bad idea, and resist, so when the lawsuits get filed they can pat themselves on the back that they aren't part of it, because their cars weren't updateable over the air and thus aren't part of it.

Unfortunately, "the lawsuits get filed" is comfortably beyond the planning horizon of any entity out there right now, even though we're talking about lawsuits with the reasonable chance of driving the affected companies right out of business.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by sneak on Friday May 21, 2021 @05:43AM (#27232086)
I have a preorder in for a cybertruck. I will not be accepting delivery if I cannot be assured that it is built without wireless WAN.

An automobile is the last thing on Earth I want suddenly working differently on Tuesday than it did on Monday.

Actually, scratch that: a plane is the last thing. An automobile is the second to last (because I'm not an amputee with a prosthesis).

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by breakingcups on Friday May 21, 2021 @06:05AM (#27232202)
You think Tesla, of all companies, would build that car?

Tesla "we remote SSH'd into as many vehicles as we still could to patch up a crash/bootloop that existed because our on-board JSON handler couldn't handle a certain json blob coming from our backend" Tesla?

Tesla "we'll call you as soon as you connect anything to the onboard ethernet port to tell you to stop doing that" Tesla?

Tesla "it was demonstrably possible to 0-day your way to the Autopilot ECU" Tesla?

I'm sorry, my comment might come off as more hostile than I mean it to, but it seems you and I have radically different impressions of Tesla. Knowing their quality control process and build quality, I wouldn't even want to stick with the first version as released.

Although I do definitely agree with you on one thing. I think OTA is a very scary prospect for cars. And let me be clear: for any car manufacturer. From the type of software I've seen car manufacturers produce I'm not sure any of them should be capable of instantly updating their whole fleet.

Then again I also don't want touch screens in my car, so what do I know?

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by wepple on Friday May 21, 2021 @05:48AM (#27232110)
You honestly think a cyber truck will come without OTA? Don’t Tesla use it across every single vehicle?
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by sneak on Friday May 21, 2021 @06:00AM (#27232180)
I'm told that it is an unpublicized configurable option, otherwise many types of people would be disqualified from being a Tesla customer (think diplomatic, military, et c).

In any case, if it can't be built without GSM tracking, I won't be getting one.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by bellyfullofbac on Friday May 21, 2021 @11:26AM (#27235279)
My belief is that Tesla is aiming the for the military and police market who like to have proto-military hardware to jerk off to. So, yeah, seems like they'll have this option.

Or maybe only the military version will have it.

I guess the military/police version will cost multiples of the civilian version too, if I were Musk I'd know I'd want to suck on that "virtually unlimited government budget" tit.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by WalterBright on Friday May 21, 2021 @05:44AM (#27232094)
There needs to be a physical "OFF" switch for the wireless connectivity, too.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by sneak on Friday May 21, 2021 @05:45AM (#27232100)
I want it without a radio transceiver of any kind: permanent "off".

It's possible I could compromise on wi-fi or bluetooth, because those need to be paired to communicate. Hard no to cellular of any kind, if for no other reason than it means that the car's location is being continuously tracked and logged for all time by the carriers and national military.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by chopin on Friday May 21, 2021 @06:29AM (#27232320)
For the EU that ship has sailed as there is a mandatory automatic emergency call capability for every new car.

I hate it for the fact alone that it enables location tracking via cellular connectivity as I assume that the SIM is connected all the time.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by sneak on Friday May 21, 2021 @06:35AM (#27232362)
> For the EU that ship has sailed as there is a mandatory automatic emergency call capability for every new car.

I'm willing to bet there are militaries and state intel agencies in the EU that have obtained brand new passenger cars that don't have transceivers in them. The module is also probably fairly easy to physically rip out, too, without disabling the whole vehicle, if creative methods with more finesse don't pan out.

Does nobody at all in governments see what an existential danger it is to a free society for anyone in that society to have access to a database containing the complete transportation logs of every single member of the society? I can't be the only person who sees this is an existential threat to a small-l liberal democracy; there are people alive in the EU today who suffered under the USSR and DDR.

I'd be worried even if it were a benevolent person with these logs; I'm positively terrified knowing it is the phone company and their pals in military intelligence.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by Joker_vD on Friday May 21, 2021 @07:27AM (#27232693)
> Does nobody at all in governments see what an existential danger it is to a free society

Maybe. But does anybody in the governments think that the free society withering away is the danger to the government? Perhaps during the Cold War they thought so, but nowadays...

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by chopin on Friday May 21, 2021 @07:48AM (#27232840)
> The module is also probably fairly easy to physically rip out, too, without disabling the whole vehicle, if creative methods with more finesse don't pan out.

It's a legal requirement to have it. Sure, I can rip out the head-lights too, but then I am not allowed to use the car any longer on public roads. If emergency call is part of the cars registration I am probably not allowed to disable it without voiding the registration.

As well, no one does this. If you do it, you stand out like a sore thumb.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by sneak on Friday May 21, 2021 @07:50AM (#27232860)
As a guess, I would bet that the legal requirement is that it be manufactured in such a way, not that the car's operator keep it connected to the telephone network after purchase. I shall research and find out!

It's internal to the vehicle, so I doubt it would stand out visually. The ALPR stuff and mobile towers aren't (yet) integrated.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by withinboredom on Friday May 21, 2021 @08:48AM (#27233340)
I'm pretty sure most (all) people carry cell phones anyway so this seems rather moot. In all honesty, turning it off would probably make you stand out more than just leaving it on and/or swapping the sim card out.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by michaelt on Friday May 21, 2021 @09:31AM (#27233748)
I trust my phone vendor's software security competence far more than I trust my auto vendor's software security competence.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by sneak on Friday May 21, 2021 @02:41PM (#27238137)
I can turn my phone off, or put it in a faraday bag, whilst traveling if I desire privacy.

I can't do that for a GSM radio built into my car if my car has to be on to drive from A to B.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by fsflover on Friday May 21, 2021 @10:05AM (#27234107)
I carry with me a phone with a killswitch for modem (Pinephone).
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by Aerroon on Friday May 21, 2021 @11:57AM (#27235714)
It's the EU. When it comes to tech they're either woefully incompetent or malicious (I'm not sure which). They talk the talk about privacy and a free society, but their moves are constantly moving things in the opposite direction.

This was 15 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive

Sure, it eventually got struck down by the courts, but EU politicians still thought this was a terrific idea. And it's not like things have changed much since then.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by xfitm3 on Friday May 21, 2021 @08:46AM (#27233318)
You can disconnect the cell antenna and terminate it with a dummy load. I did this on my head unit.
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by meowster on Friday May 21, 2021 @09:55AM (#27234013)
I had a hard time finding information on dummy loads for wireless antennas. Can you please give me (and others) a short primer and/or the right keywords to search for? Thank you.

(I was looking for my "smart" TV, I ended up disconnecting the wireless card from the TV. Thankfully the error message isn't as annoying as other models.)

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by nucleardog on Friday May 21, 2021 @01:20PM (#27236991)
You basically need a resistor with the value of the impedance of the antenna, and a wattage and airflow sufficient to dissipate whatever power is being dumped into it (or several resistors in parallel whose heat dissipation adds up to the value you need).

There's no real standard for cellular antennas as there is for many other types of radios (as far as I know, not that I would / can find in some brief looking). Most stuff I'm familiar is 50ohm or 75ohm. E.g., wifi antennas are generally 50ohm. If you made me pick a resistor to put on there without being able to test anything first, I'd pick a 50ohm/5W. But you might burn your electronics up.

So your two main unknowns are the impedance and wattage.

Solving for wattage is probably best just done with Google. The power output should be fairly standardized. Assume the transmitter's going to go into its highest power mode when it realizes it can't find anyone to talk to and then leave yourself some headroom on top of that. On a very brief look, most sources put LTE at about a half a watt, but other techs at up to 3-4W. For the price of resistors and assuming these will end up mounted somewhere without great airflow, I'd probably just throw two 5W resistors at it.

Solving for impedance is going to be a bit more challenging. If you're lucky, an off-the-shelf antenna _may_ be marked with the frequency ranges and impedance. Otherwise, measuring impedance generally requires some more specialized tools. You could pick up something like the NanoVNA2 to do the measurements yourself (they're not the best, but likely close enough for what you're doing and cheap relative to the other options), or try getting in touch with your local ham radio group and ask if anyone has an antenna analyzer to analyze a cellular antenna (impedance is at a given frequency, so they need an analyzer that covers up to at least around the 1GHz range, which are less common than one for HF which is only covering up to a few dozen MHz) and could analyze an antenna for you.

Then just hop on Digikey/Mouser/etc, grab some resistors and a SMA or whatever other connector would plug in in place of the antenna and get to soldering.

Disclaimer: Amateur radio guy, not RF engineer. It's been years since I actually used any of this information in any significant way. This could all be entirely wrong.

Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by meowster on Friday May 21, 2021 @01:45PM (#27237339)
Awesome, thank you for the detailed response!
Re:Now your car is a cybersecurity risk, too by ampdepolymerase on Friday May 21, 2021 @10:45AM (#27234646)
You need a RF engineering textbook. Start by understanding how a co-axial works and what is impedance matching.