Mine came in the form of a six foot barracuda getting a bit too close for comfort. I am sure if I hadn't played it cool. Had somehow attacked or acted aggressively to shush it away (when I was a guest in it's deep sea domain). It would have enjoyed a nice lunch of fresh human flesh.
The second was going below the hard deck at 300 feet whilst diving the continental shelf in the Caribbean. It's stunning. Floating weightlessly over the void that drops suddenly over a mile in depth. Feeling the rush of frigid current rise from the abyss. And seeing mysterious shapes as light filters down into darkness. But I too ran low on air. And had to come up fast.
I haven't been diving in decades. And would require re-certification. But I've always heard legendary tales of the Red Sea and Australia's Coral Reef. Definite bucket list items ;)
I don't think most recreational divers push things close to the line at all.
Ascent from depth without having cavities open to equalize pressure will be a really bad deal even from 18m (and really from comparatively shallow depths like 3-6m), but that really just means breathing out at slow rate during ascent. For that it'd be explode vs. implode though :)
(Lungs do compress during breath hold freediving.)
Once, a 5-meter tiger shark came to me out of the blue and got too close, but as humans aren't a regular diet of tiger sharks either, it swam away.
They are a minimal threat but they look kind of scary so people always always think that they had a close call with one when the barracuda is just doing what they do which is checking out a human who might hand them a fish.
It always makes me chuckle because I hear people tell their barracudas stories and they always sound the exact same. At no point were they in any danger but they really think they were.
Jelly fish, OTOH, suck.
I'm also shocked that you could come up from that depth with any sort of urgency and not be seriously injured / killed by some form of DCS.
Maybe I misunderstood and you were not a beginner, because otherwise that tour operator has no business running a dive op.
To go deeper you need to blend in inert gasses and decrease o2 and n2 to keep partial pressures below fatal doses. This means most commonly mixing in Helium to cut down on over o2 and n2 in your gas mix. Human tissue I guess doesn't absorb helium the same way it does n2.
Source: Open Water Scuba Instructor with multiple agencies... I havent taught in about 5 years though so some of this information may have changed, especially in light that global helium shortages (or US stock piles?) may have driven the price of He up to high to be used for mixed gas diving.
You're experience matches mine so I'm now extra careful to vet all the diving centers - especially looking for complaints of divemasters being too "hardass" on people and demanding good equipment / qualifications. A lot of other divers are still surprised that my inital diving instructor actually checked if I could do the required 200m swim by demanding that I do it in the pool before starting training.
I've also bought my own equipment because of that - who knows just how well the regulators, dive computers and BCDs are maintained in those places. It's scary enough that you need to trust them with air and tank quality.
If the instructor had looked away from the TV for a second he would've seen and flunked me, which would probably have been a good thing. I'm stupid. Went through with it and out on a couple of dives which I enjoyed greatly, but now ten years later still haven't dived again and won't until I can swim. Having kids does stuff to your sense of self-preservation.
In my late 20s I was militantly fit and also very into rock climbing. I supplemented this with some lifting to balance things out; people who ONLY climb end up looking a little weird as the lats develop out of proportion with the rest of you.
Anyway, even with a lungful of air, my neutral buoyancy point was like 8-12" below the surface.
Alas, I am now 51.
I think PADI should be emphasizing that your first 20 dives or so should be with a guide never exceeding 60ft. IIRC, a lot of the course material for Open Water is about shore diving with a buddy by yourselves.
ref: https://www.padi.com/courses/open-water-diver
PADI does emphasize that with an open water cert you must absolutely always remain above 60ft.
That’s what’s shocking to me the most about the article and some of the conversation here—many folks are talking about diving to crazy depths as if that’s normal.
I don’t know why that is, but I will agree with your general point as a result. Folks need to understand this is a dangerous sport and one that can easily kill you (though not by barracuda).
I'm like genuinely confused at this point. I've had so many guides, even in places like Hawaii, not follow their own guidelines. It would be trivial for PADI to see Open Water divers are diving the thresher sharks at Malapascua, for example, and that would necessitate they go past 60ft.
Still, that was circa 1997 so, um, I forgot pretty much all the detail :).
I think fear is what has kept me safe this long. I've got at least 100 dives under my belt but I was quite careful to slowly ramp up the difficulty, and even now, I'm very cautious of really strong currents.
I must have done over 20 easy shore dives just getting navigation experience (and I'm still not super confident with it) before jumping on a boat to go deeper. And even then there were a couple of potentially close calls. I must have had over 40 dives before I even went on a dive holiday, and many of the scenic places are not super difficult to dive.
This is most definitely how it should go.
It seems like an inevitability you will eventually have something go wrong (maybe you lose your group, your mask is a problem, you burn through air too quickly, etc). In this scenario the most important skill is to not panic and control your breathing but I think that mostly comes with experience.
While you develop experience, diving conservatively hedges against some of the worst case scenarios. Something as simple as a mask coming off can lead to panic which leads to hyperventilating. Someone hyperventilating will feel like they just can't get enough air and the immediate reaction will be to exit as quickly as possible.
Guides, as OP points out, should be far more sensitive to the experience a person has.
He essentially told us that any missteps would have very nasty consequences, and spent most of his time badgering us with safety precautions. He also encouraged us to dive with a guide, do refresher dives, etc.
The only downside is that I don't dive anymore now that I have kids, since I believe it's dangerous, and I'm worried I will make a mistake...
Over the holidays I was reading a book about a winter fatality on Mount Washington a few years back. The person was actually very well-prepared and fit. And even had some big mountain experience--but always with guides. And simply went out on a day she should never have been out on.
One should be vigilant not to get lulled into a false sense of security and prepare well for any hike. I have been irresponsible in the past at times but now I know better - I wish I did back then too.
I tried to do one hike this winter that wasn't even particularly hard but it was really icy and cold and the steep parts were steep enough. I ended up turning around given that I wasn't wearing my full crampons.
"Oh well, I'll settle today" I thought. Midway down Hermit's Rest I cross a much more experienced hiker -- she had lived in and around the Grand Canyon full-time for a year. She was only coming back to the Rim to move her car due to the incoming on-season (yeah, just a "casual" river to rim and back, lol). She told me she had just been around Bright Angel the day prior and had seen a girl be air-lifted away with a broken leg. Even though she had microspikes and months of winter experience in that park specifically, she bailed.
Suddenly, I didn't feel like I settled anymore... turning back can save lives and limbs. The majority of the time, nature (and the trail) will still be there when you return. It will certainly outlast you, if anything.
> The area ahead has the worst weather in America. Many have died of exposure even in the summer. Turn back _now_ if the weather is bad.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ScarySigns/comments/ekx3rw/found_wh...
They are NOT kidding. Things can go from beautiful to ugly very quickly. 5,000 feet might seem like a joke to somebody from out west, but it's not all smooth trails (practically the same as pavement) with plenty of switchbacks like you're used to. When you're on steep nasty almost-technical terrain and its wet and hella windy, safety can suddenly be a long way away.
I know those mountains very well, I'm a strong hiker even by local standards, and I still make sure to exercise plenty of caution every time. Those rocks are not to be trifled with.
She died just off the Star Lake Trail, having ascended to the ridge via the Valley Way, which hits the ridge line at Madison Hut (4800', or much lower than the summit of Washington at 6288'). My partner and I have bailed off pretty much exactly her route in the summer when the winds were too high for our experience and fitness levels when we popped up out of the lee side of the ridge line on Adams.
Anybody who wants a really well researched case study should read Ty Gagne's book on her trip and the subsequent rescue attempt.
Incidentally, my partner and I climbed Washington on a guided trip the weekend after she died. The weather was so good the guides had their cameras out to take pictures. The extremes in the Presidentials are no joke, as stated, but can also result in some beautiful days.
The actual accident, while obviously very tragic, wasn't especially interesting. Basically don't try to do a Presidential Traverse during the worst weather in about 20 years. It was actually a different situation from the more common cascading failures mode of accidents.
She made a grave error by deciding to drive up to NH that weekend and a fatal one by continuing above treeline. Even Rick Wilcox (owns local climbing gear/guide store and has summitted Everest) basically says in the book that she was well enough prepared but shouldn't have been out that day.
That said there were definitely lessons around just because you have a lot of experience, don't assume you understand the local situation when you have little to no experience there.
But the search and rescue account was morbidly fascinating. Also demonstrates that locator beacons won't always save you. (She admittedly didn't use it properly but I doubt it would have made a difference given the weather.)
0) Her mileage to the top of Madison was off by about a mile on her written plan. Not a good place to start for an ambitious day.
1) Most of her prior experience was guided where somebody else was responsible for making the decisions. I am fully prepared to believe that she had the physical experience, but would suspect that she lacked the decision-making experience that would have saved her.
2) She died heartbreakingly close to Madison Hut. If she'd turned around 30 to 60 minutes earlier, she might have made it to the relative shelter of the hut with enough energy left to warm up and get back below treeline on the Valley Way, which is quite close to the hut. Speculation, I know, but I can't help but wonder.
We talked a lot about the decision-making because we could both see ourselves having a go in the same circumstances owing to our inexperience (we independently thru-hiked the AT, but we aren't mountaineers). Reading it was a really useful case study for us and helped think through identifying when we're about to cross the line from adventure to peril.
If you didn't know, he's got a second book out, btw. Gonna crack it open next :-)
To your point, I agree and think I touch on most of them upthread. Weather is definitely an an important consideration. She hadn't mostly been involved in making tough calls.
And, yeah, she had opportunities to bail after driving up from NY. But clearly she wasn't going to do that prior to seriously going for Adams at which point it was too late given the weather.
One problem is that that experience lull you into a false sense of security. I'm not talking arrogance or so. Merely that you can do something everyday that's unsafe and get away with it, training you on bad data to think it's safe.
Like avalanches. Certain conditions are met. You go out. Everything is fine. Same the other times. You learn that it's safe. Suddenly an avalanche happen with those exact conditions. It was just arbitrary it didn't happen the other times.
For all the mitigation work they do on a regular basis, there are periodic avalanches at ski areas in the Alps and in the US West. Many of these are out of bounds, but not all. [1]
[1] https://www.powder.com/stories/skier-killed-in-avalanche-at-...
But sometimes I think. If I have to do aaall those things to mitigate the risk, is it really safe and worth it? So far, the answer is yes. Maybe it changes if I ever see an accident.
What you describe sounds like a terrible and irresponsible trip to me.
That is typical of tours and resorts. These are not in the US where the law might investigate. Just some divers who will show anyone around. Many will teach you to dive, a two hour course is enough for a simple dive (ie.something you could snorkel to), then they take you on a first dive that needs far more training.
The issue that many take with PADI is that their values are mostly aligned with making profits.
> You need to be PADI Advanced Open Water Diver who is at least 18 years old to enroll in the Cavern Diver course.
After doing some research around this. Cenotes are an exception to the rule and even though Open Water Divers often do enter inner rooms in wreck dives and caverns what matters is maintaining a direct line of ascent.
---- Original ----
Open Water can do caverns. Dos Ojos is incredibly popular and has hard ceiling.
Edit: Also Cavern Diver is just a specialty cert and doesn't confer any extra penetration. Those certs are mostly designed for skill mastery. IANTD's Cavern cert is required to get Full Cave, but I don't know if PADI's would count towards it.
https://blog.padi.com/2019/04/29/must-dive-cenotes-for-open-...
> certified Open Water Divers can take a cavern tour guided by professionals qualified by some of the cave diver training organizations to lead such tours. This is a highly controlled, limited tour along a line into the cavern zone, which is defined as within the natural light zone and within 130 to 200 ft (39-60m) (some minor variations here) of the surface.
As a rule, they absolutely aren't.
In this specific place, PADI allows some of them to make a supervised dive at a certain site following a specially installed line. This doesn't change the rule, which is "Open Water Diver certification does not qualify you to dive on shipwrecks, nor caves".
At some other place, there may be an option for a person with Open Water certificate to drive a semi-trailer truck, while under supervision from a trained professional, and over a course specifically crafted to minimize any possible collision. This doesn't change the rule, which is "Open Water Diver certification does not qualify you to drive semi-trailer trucks."
Where I'm confused is the difference between a direct line of ascent (even when there is an overhead directly above) versus penetrating beyond that. This is a differentiator that makes swim-throughs OK but most caverns not OK.
Edit: Turns out I can't edit a comment that old.
Always dive within your limits, and if interested find a local club. To me, dive turism is something that can only be truly enjoyed after reaching a certain dive level. It's no fun to see turtles or sharks if your whole focus is still on being neutral buoyant or checking your air supply.
As you say, diving is like hiking. I love hiking, but I know my limits and will not attempt a K7 or travel with a specific hike in mind. I like walking a trail, seeing birds and views and nature. Same applies underwater! The red sea is amazing, but so can be your nearest dive site.
If truly afraid / curious about things that go awry, "Diver down" is a nice intro
I recall, when doing my first real dive (not training in 4m), in Croatia, the instructor took us to 33m. I was showing him this on depth meter, he just signaled OK with fingers. The feeling of being so deep that we didn't see surface anymore, on a first dive was a bit unnerving.
I also have similar experience to yours with shipwreck, although with some 30 dives it wasn't so scary. But we were swimming through narrow passages of very old shipwreck from WWII on Bali, and I felt how tubes are touching the walls. It wasn't a big wreck, but I wouldn't go to this kind of inspection on my own, just followed instructor.
One thing I noticed - a minority of folks are so arrogant they barely follow instructor and do what they want, ie not following the group, swimming lower than instructor etc. Can't comprehend this, I mean you are literally reminded by all senses how you are in very unfamiliar environment, yet some can't show any respect for it, even though they don't have much experience themselves.
Anyway, a very cool sport, although its one way to realize how messed up our environment is, when you see more and more corals dying literally just over few years.
As a counterpoint, I did another "introductory" dive at another Australian island a few years later, and it was beyond amazing. Prettier than any wildlife documentary I had ever seen. Incredibly attentive, patient, and professional staff, etc...
Good was Lord Howe Island, which is the last true paradise on Earth. It's on the southernmost tip of the Great Barrier Reef, so it has coral, but none has bleached. The waters are pristine and protected. It's a place more civilised than Japan. You can leave a camera bag with $10K of gear in it on the beach and go on a hike, because it will be there when you get back. There's a beach with a shack next to it where you can stuff a $20 bill into a jar to rent snorkelling equipment. The jar had about $500 in it. Nobody is going to take that either. This place is what most places should be like, but aren't.
The dive at Lord Howe Island was just... unspeakably beautiful. To set the scene: the missus had done a dive before (supposedly), and this was an introductory dive anyway to a depth no greater than about 12m, but she had a panic attack. While the instructor was patiently helping her relax, I snorkelled around the boat. Above were thousands of wheeling seabirds coming in to roost to a cliff about 100m high. That view alone was spectacular. Below were layers of coral and shoals of fish like underwater highways of colour. Had I paid the fee just to see this I would have considered it money well spent.
Then the younger instructor leading the team of kids doing their PADI certification offered to take me on a one-on-one dive since a boy in his group used his air too quick and we had spare time now. I got to see shellfish bigger than I had ever seen, a huge octopus squirt ink in the instructor's face, then we dove through a tunnel under coral, there were fish bigger than me, and generally it was just awesome.
I highly, highly recommend this place to everyone who's willing to listen and has the budget. My tip is: skimp on the accommodation, splurge on the restaurants. Go there to turn your phone off and relax.
I am an instructor and it always makes me sad to hear about people questioning the hobby because of shady dive centers.
Do not let a guide or instructor talk you into exceeding your certification limits.
Also, if anyone encounters a situation like what is described above please report it to PADI asap. PADI takes cases like this very seriously and will initiate an investigation immediately.
You might save someones life.
I find this is very destination dependent.
I did some Cenotes dives in Mexico that I was seriously underqualified for, and some deeper wreck dives in the Carribean too.
OTOH in Australia everything was very much by the book. The new book, even (when I qualified for PADI Open Water in the early 90s we did deep-diving as part of the training, and were qualified up to 30m, but sometime in the 00s AFAICT things changed and O/W people are these days confined to 18m or less.)
Which reminds me, I must get my 'advanced' at some point soon. I did a deep-dive specialty a while back so that I could do some more interesting reef dives at the great barrier reef, and an enriched air qualification as well, but not the advanced O/W.
One day, after many years, I may even have the qualifications to do those dives I did many years ago... Thankfully I was young and stupid enough to just go with it and enjoy it at the time.
Not saying that it is the right way but dive shops would have a lot fewer customers if they really emphasized the dangers.
Also diving is one of the best the best experiences of my life. It really feels like being in another world. It is extremely peaceful and meditative. You should try at least once.
You are absolutely correct, in mountaineering risk-management you have two risks an objective an subjective.
If you do hiking, the objective risk is low (hey i am just wandering), but the subjective is often much higher then one thinks (falling rocks, rapid weather change, out of water, break you angle, no way to call emergency, aggressive mother-cows etc.).
If you plan to climb a Wall the objective risk is obvious (you can fall down, rocks break out and hit you etc), and because of that you are already aware of those risks, the chance that you calculated the subjective risks in too, is much bigger.
In my other comment, I recommended that everyone try Scuba diving at least once, cannot edit it now but there is another option, free diving. Most of the reefs and fishes are around 30-40 feet depth. With free diving, you can experience beauty of seas without carrying heavy equipment, worrying about equipment failure, ascending too fast, etc.
I have also because of similar reasons, moved my focus on free diving. There is less overall risk in my opinion, as long as you are not pushing your limits.
It is a common discussion topic I hear among divers, and almost everyone who been diving for a while has had a similar experience. Dive guides get basically all of their income from tip, and it creates a strong incentive for them to bring guests into areas which the guest might not be qualified to be in. Same for instructors at popular resorts.
To me the whole experience was a major incentive to get better training and gear so that next time I won't be under qualified to do the dive, and the more training and equipment I get the more I realize how dangerous diving can be and how little redundancy recreational diving have. The basic premise for open water dive is that you should be able to rocket to the surface at any point, and that there is a second diver next to you at all time. Being the last person inside a wreck is neither of that.
But I will end this comment by saying that one should not let guides ruin ones enjoyment of diving. There is a lot of great diving to be done within the limits of recreational diving.
Not that I’ll never go with a PADI dive, especially if it’s the only game in town where I’m visiting. But I generally bias towards NAUI, and would highly suggest anyone new go with a NAUI cert.
I'm not sure I agree about alpine hiking. Most of the failure states I've seen can be avoided by having at least one competent person (out too late, lost, continue in bad weather, etc.) There is still the issue of approving people who aren't fit enough, but you've got a much slower start than diving and you'll probably notice that sort of thing before you're too far in to turn back.
Edit: Possibly you meant more mountaineering-y sorts of trips instead. If you're talking about the sort of thing where you might use protection then I agree with you.
ADDED: re: fitness. I've definitely had to take people down when I've been leading a trip and even had to turn a group around. But so long as you don't push on past where it's safe, it mostly just means people don't get up the mountain. (Of course, it can be a problem with canyons.)
Thats why "guides" exist. And if course it is very safe with a competent guide.
But alpine hiking can be indeed very dangerous, without.
Because Alpine hiking has climbing elements in it.
Add to that a storm and wind and fog - and you have tourists with sandals on slippery rock about to fall very deep. Happens allmost every year.
My experience matches that.
While climbing most deadly accidents (30+% of them [1]) happen because people rappel through the end of the rope (or ropes if using half/twin ropes). Stopper knots are a 10s precaution that is often overlooked.
However, it is true that on easier climbing routes it is easier to hurt yourself because you might hit a ledge on your way down. If that happens it's most likely the belayer's fault because he/she should keep "a tight leash" on the sections just above said ledges. If you let an unexperienced person belay you I assume you evaluated the risk and are ok with that.
[1] https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/8_common_climbing...
>little injuries sliding down a shallow wall
Those are often not "little" the rocks rip you apart, and when you stop you look not human anymore (a bag of flesh)...happens often at glaciers too.
Not for everyone obviously.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_ferrata
And if without securing...even a bigger objective danger for you to decide if you can do it, that's the point.
But of course, if the whole idea of something going wrong will leave you lying awake the night before, it's probably not worth it :)
Basically, as long as you dive in much better conditions than what you trained/qualified for, you will have a great time. Well worth doing.
I just wish more dive shops were on the more conservative side. And that they had better boats with less fumes and less waiting around!
Thanks anyway for worrying about me, ha!
"A few meters more" is not dangerous per se unless you go below 24 meters (80 ft), but I agree it would be very bad to do that without the divemaster telling you before and also without him/her being a certified instructor.
1. Being able to easily sign up for a dive at an all-inclusive resort makes it seem more 'fine', you get a false sense of security that you will be taken care of.
2. Dive shops tend to be fairly relaxed with checking if someone is properly qualified to go on a particular dive. They barely check your papers or equipment, if at all.
3. You often don't really know what exactly you are getting into until you are in the middle of it. And then it can be too late to bail. Is it safer to abandon a group and attempt to go back and potentially get lost, or go into an environment that looks more dangerous than you expected?
I am a PADI open water diver, but only dive a few times a year, so not too experienced. One time I signed up for a shipwreck dive at an all-inclusive resort. I am usually quite careful, and naively thought it would be fine - we just dive down, go around the wreck and come back up. I rented all equipment, and had to pay extra for a wetsuit - the 'default' was to just go in my swimming trunks. Turned out, on the dive we ended up going inside the wreck through a very narrow passage under it, going through narrow dark corridors surrounded by rusted metal. Touch anything and you get scratched (which I did). Your cables or tank can easily get caught (which it briefly did for me - and since I was the last one in the group it was quite scary seeing the group getting away from me as I tried to catch up). The current around the wreck was quite strong.
Somehow the dive was planned such that there was very little allowance for extra air. I ended up using more air than I suppose was normal, and there would not have been enough to make a normal ascent. I ended up having to use the dive instructor's alt supply for some of the return swim and switch to my own for the safety stop, otherwise I would've run out. It is one thing to practice it, and another to actually have to do it on what was supposed to be a relaxing 'touristy' dive.
On another occasion, a dive instructor took me and my partner (who was on an introductory dive - she doesn't have a license) into a cave, which is also more dangerous than I would've preferred.
These experiences - combined with the general experience of wasting the whole day on a rocky boat breathing diesel fumes for an hour or so of diving - make me reluctant to dive again, unless the sight is particularly picturesque.