I was debating disagreeing with the equivalence with alpine hiking. As I said in another comment, it's mostly about judgment when it comes to alpine hiking. Although perhaps that’s the case with diving as well. Of course, get more into mountaineering and there are a ton of factors like avalanches you can't fully protect against. (And there's of course some overlap with winter hiking in the mountains.)

ADDED: re: fitness. I've definitely had to take people down when I've been leading a trip and even had to turn a group around. But so long as you don't push on past where it's safe, it mostly just means people don't get up the mountain. (Of course, it can be a problem with canyons.)

"Most of the failure states I've seen can be avoided by having at least one competent person"

Thats why "guides" exist. And if course it is very safe with a competent guide.

But alpine hiking can be indeed very dangerous, without.

Because Alpine hiking has climbing elements in it.

Add to that a storm and wind and fog - and you have tourists with sandals on slippery rock about to fall very deep. Happens allmost every year.

One of my (very experienced) alpine hiking instructors died after a long day summiting Rainer. His team made a rookie mistake, but it’s surprisingly easy to do when you’re exhausted and you feel as if you’re nearly done with the worst of it.

I was told, most of the climbing accidents happens in easy terrain. When also experienced people get careless.

My experience matches that.

Not sure if you are still focusing on alpine hiking or climbing.

While climbing most deadly accidents (30+% of them [1]) happen because people rappel through the end of the rope (or ropes if using half/twin ropes). Stopper knots are a 10s precaution that is often overlooked.

However, it is true that on easier climbing routes it is easier to hurt yourself because you might hit a ledge on your way down. If that happens it's most likely the belayer's fault because he/she should keep "a tight leash" on the sections just above said ledges. If you let an unexperienced person belay you I assume you evaluated the risk and are ok with that.

[1] https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/8_common_climbing...

Another point is you get much more injuries when the wall is not steep (you slide along, instead of falling in free-air), another are stones if the wall is not steep they roll along the wall. That's a perfect example off misjudge objective and subjective dangers. An overhanging wall is much less dangerous then anything else, but your brain tells something else.

I'd generally trade more little injuries sliding down a shallow wall for one big injury from a free fall.

For that you have a rope, that's the objective part...you would not climb (i hope) an overhanging wall.

>little injuries sliding down a shallow wall

Those are often not "little" the rocks rip you apart, and when you stop you look not human anymore (a bag of flesh)...happens often at glaciers too.

Oh, but in the alps there are ways with a metal ladder, where you indeed "walk" a overhanging way, without rope.

Not for everyone obviously.

You have steelropes or hooks there too and a via ferrata set with a shock-absorber and a helmet:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_ferrata

And if without securing...even a bigger objective danger for you to decide if you can do it, that's the point.

I'm sorry to hear that. I wasn't try to claim alpine hiking is totally safe. Just that there is less of an issue with guides taking inexperienced people beyond their competency.