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Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by maxehmookau on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @06:26AM (#26887620)
The Daily Mail can definitely simmer down.

If you build your business on clickbait and bullshit "journalism" you can't complain when your main source of traffic decides to squeeze a bit more cash out of your enormous money pit.

Cry me a river.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by comboy on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @06:31AM (#26887645)
I have no idea if The Daily Mail claims have any merit, but you do not want to live in a country where thief cannot report burglary.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by maxehmookau on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @06:33AM (#26887680)
This is exactly the completely deregulated free-market economy that op-eds in the daily mail have been asking for for decades.

They don't like it when it comes back to bite them.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by roenxi on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:02AM (#26890556)
Being pro-free-market is against the interests of incumbents, and if in fact an incumbent was pro-free-market regardless then that is laudable. Incumbents are protected by regulations.

There is a lot to dislike about the Daily Mail I'm sure (I don't read it). But you aren't catching them in a moment of hypocrisy here. Everyone hates losing, doesn't mean they are wrong about what the rules of the game should be.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by rchaud on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:36AM (#26889483)
This is a level of gotcha akin to "NYTimes shows ads, so they have no authority to criticize Google" that we see on HN.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by sldksk on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:48AM (#26890354)
No, it’s not. Participating in capitalism is not equivalent to advocating for it.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by comboy on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @06:38AM (#26887711)
s/burglary/theft then
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by optimalsolver on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @06:46AM (#26887766)
"No capitalist ever saw a market and wished it free."
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by treeman79 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @07:36AM (#26888227)
Of course people don’t want to compete. Too bad.

Capitalism is about increasing efficiency / resources through brutal competition.

Just don’t let them make laws giving one group special treatment. Like banning the competition.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by Jeff_Brown on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @08:02AM (#26888463)
Who don't want to compete with who? This is between a news publisher and a search engine; they're not exactly in the same business.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by elliekelly on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @08:14AM (#26888579)
Sure they are: they both make money from selling ads don’t they?
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by bagacrap on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:32PM (#26894353)
If they're equals does it make sense to ask when's the last time the DM sent traffic to Google?
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by treeman79 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:12AM (#26889947)
Google news
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by Jeff_Brown on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:51PM (#26895916)
The article says the DM is accusing Google of burying the DM's results in favor of other news outlets'. The dispute is not about Google favoring its own news, as if there were such a thing, over the DM's.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by vixen99 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @07:33AM (#26888204)
A completely deregulated free-market economy would have no recourse to the courts. Such does not exist. I have no idea regarding the merits of the case but so far we don't know who's to get bitten.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by Jeff_Brown on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @08:00AM (#26888443)
Courts are integral to a free market. Without them all sorts of markets evaporate completely.

More generally, having a market does not mean having a government that supplies no public goods -- that is, having a government, since supplying public goods is all a government does.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by Jeff_Brown on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @06:05PM (#26896021)
The confusion may be a linguistic one -- conflation of the terms "competitive" and "unregulated", and of "a" market with "the" market.

The existence of some free markets does not imply that every market is free. Excepting failed states, nowhere is every market free -- the markets for grenades, ivory, medical licenses, political appointments, assassinations, etc. are all things most of us want either tightly controlled or entirely suppressed.

And even in an extremely competitive market, like the ones for lettuce or generic drugs, there are still important roles for government to play. Of course regulation can be and often is grossly wasteful, even corrupt. But it's also critical to our safety.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by AuthorizedCust on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @08:50AM (#26888948)
> where thief cannot report burglary

Written from the perspective that the most straightforward explanation is true:

Bad analogy. Nobody entered anyone else's business.

The defendant prefers that its users get good quality information, and the plaintiff's reputation for low quality information runs afoul of that practice.

Also, why would a thief report his own crime?

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by bluefirebrand on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:11AM (#26889927)
I don't think it's meant as an analogy, it's an idiom.

> Also, why would a thief report his own crime?

The thief isn't reporting their own crime, they are reporting that they have been robbed by someone else.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by deelowe on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:35AM (#26890186)
It's an idiom. It basically means that someone who committed a lesser, but similar crime wouldn't be able to report a crime themselves.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by blackshaw on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:05AM (#26890608)
> The defendant prefers that its users get information that a) maximises the defendant's ad revenue and b) advances the defendant's preferred narratives.

FTFY

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by sshagent on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @07:40AM (#26888262)
I agree with what your saying, but have no sympathy for the rag that is the Daily Mail
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by 0898 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @08:43AM (#26888884)
I used to be very much of the same opinion. But increasingly I find the Daily Mail to be the only place to turn for a sensible reaction to woke hysteria – like the supposed "rape culture" in schools, and the recent walkouts over the flying of the Union Jack at the Pimlico Academy.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by maxehmookau on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:04AM (#26890597)
Wait.. what? You find the DM a home for "sensible reaction" to cultural issues? That's horrifying.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by 0898 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @07:22AM (#26901455)
I would have been amazed even 5 years ago too. For example, I listened to Harry and Meaghan's cringeworthy new podcast on Spotify. Afterwards I clicked around the web, trying to find some commentary that would truly sum up my feelings.

Eventually I landed on the Daily Mail's site and what do I see? A headline: "Woke Word-Salad". At that point I had to concede: okay, maybe this is where I belong.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by treeman79 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @07:28AM (#26888156)
Why not? The poor thief is just trying to support his 20 orphan kids. People should feel honored when they are robbed and left for dead.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by jhgb on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @08:56AM (#26889015)
> you do not want to live in a country where thief cannot report burglary

There was a Daily Mail article about a thief who was unable to report a burglary? Or what exactly did you mean by that?

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by RKearney on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:01AM (#26889075)
It appears to be an idiom for a party in the wrong (Daily Mail for clickbait article) from being allowed to report that they were wronged (manipulated search results by Google) since the parent poster seemed to suggest that Daily Mail somehow deserved that treatment and two wrongs make a right.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by jhgb on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:30AM (#26889406)
That's a weird idiom, then, considering that Daily Mail is in the UK and Google is in the US. And considering that Daily Mail is not a search engine, so they're not comparable entities to begin with. And that I'm not even sure that Google was in the wrong here in the first place. So I was confused on multiple levels, apparently.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by scatters on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:15AM (#26890746)
Per Wikipedia, 70% of the Daily Mail's web traffic is from outside the UK, mostly from the US.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by jhgb on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:01PM (#26894010)
Not quite sure what this has to do with the idiom's inapplicability, unless "country" in it meant "world". But clearly the reason for what you point out is that the English-speaking world is way larger than the UK.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by JohnWhigham on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:30AM (#26890127)
God help us all if people like you become judges; "I don't like the plaintiff so this case is automatically invalidated"
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by maxehmookau on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:03AM (#26890582)
That's fine, I have no plans to become one. I'm not legally trained, nor do I pretend to be.

The Daily Mail, however, has spent the last few years describing the UK judiciary as "Enemies of the People", so they can continue to cry me a river.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by hrktb on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:12AM (#26890711)
Arguably shouldn't judges follow their judgement on the cases they work on ? Throwing out baseless cases happen every day, a company abusing the system having their ridiculous complaints thrown out would be reasonable.

To me that is the basic reason for having humans in the process.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by _-david-_ on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:52AM (#26891269)
I think the point was the case should not be thrown out because the judge doesn't like the plaintiff but only if the case is baseless. You can't judge the validity of a case just because preconceived notions about the plaintiff.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by hrktb on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:22PM (#26895605)
Wether a case is deemed baseless is not cold and dry facts, there is a judgement of merit and intention of the filing side.

Also taking into account the surroundings of a case, including who’s involved and their history is not preconception (or then everything becomes preconception).

It’s not the same if you’re a CEO filing a suit against a grandma who shouted insanities at you when you fired their son, and if you’re a worker subject to verbal abuse from your boss.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by ChrisRR on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @07:15AM (#26888015)
The DM are worse than clickbait. They actively attempt to manufacture rage for clicks
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:59AM (#26890523)
Sounds like YouTube and Facebook.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by jtbayly on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @07:42AM (#26888274)
Kind of sounds like the New York Times.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by tootie on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:27AM (#26889367)
It enrages me to see this kind of hot take on HN. People here used to be rational.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by sofixa on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:52AM (#26889688)
Seriously, what is wrong with people? How can anyone look at the Guardian and Daily Fail, and conclude they are of the same quality.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by beaner on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:03AM (#26890587)
The only difference is that the Guardian/NYT's lies are accepted enough to be dangerous.

See: russiagate; russian bounties for american soldiers; the lack of representation of blacks and minorities in initial Covid coverage, leading many to assume it did not affect them; etc.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by sofixa on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:12AM (#26890696)
You're going to have to do better than that. Please provide articles from The Guardian that were stating incorrect facts (not reporting allegations or personal opinions) that weren't recanted later when new evidence came to light.

Edit to clarify: you're making a statement, you should be able to provide direct proof.

Most sources claim the Guardian is mostly factually correct:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/ ( which is American-centric, so ignore the bullshit liberal and conservative arguments) says they're mostly factual with the `Failed Fact Checks` section including opinion pieces and reporting as per X (e.g. https://fullfact.org/education/barnardos-foster-care-coronav...) , and the fact check saying X's report is wrong, not that the Guardian are misrepresenting facts.

https://www.adfontesmedia.com/the-guardian-bias-and-reliabil... says they're very reliable.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by beaner on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:36AM (#26891055)
Yeah... I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole for you. You have to have been paying attention. These things turned out to be false but were continuously reported on at length as if they were true, even though plenty of sound skepticism existed at the time and a basic, continuous, genuine application of journalistic standards would have compelled then to ask, what is this based on? And discovered it was nothing or made-up.

When it comes to your links, consider that media ranking the media is perhaps not the least-biased judgment. Outlets branding themselves as fact-checkers are often particularly egregious. Snopes, for example, can't even dispassionately and accurately rate stories that do not fit a woke worldview.

I once read a NYT "fact check" that was checking a trump quote. One of the quotes was "we've been fighting in the middle east for 17 years." They rated this statement False, flat-out. Why? The correction stated, "We've been fighting in afghanistan for 17 years, but afghanistan is not the middle east. We've been fighting in the middle east for 16 years."

It completely ignored the point of the statement to issue a False rating on a technicality. Any reasonable interpretation would not have done so.

This is an example of the accuracy of modern-day "fact-checking." It's basically made up.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by jtbayly on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @07:43PM (#26896804)
Original comment: “They actively attempt to manufacture rage for clicks”

From the front page of the NYT website right now: “Proposed G.O.P. Bills Protect Drivers Who Hit Protesters With Cars”

I rest my case.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by MikeUt on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:04AM (#26889839)
The GP's comment is not baseless - swap White and Black, and the following title could be right out of the Mail:

A Black Virginia Girl Says White Classmates Cut Her Dreadlocks at a Playground - https://web.archive.org/web/20190927202007/https://www.nytim...

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by tootie on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:45AM (#26890317)
That's not equivalent at all. The dreadlocks story is a legitimately outrageous and racist attack. It's not journalistic ethics to write stories like a robot. The context is important. The NY Times headline includes relevant details to inform the reader. "Kids Cut Another Kid's Hair" just sounds like juvenile hijinks and isn't doing justice to the story.

The Daily Mail will actively gin up uninteresting or patently false stories with the hottest headlines they can possibly get away with. They'll skip coverage of important news if they can find a story about a prominent person misspeaking about something inconsequential. Look at the lawsuit. They were upset that publishing multiple stories a day about Piers Morgan weren't all getting top search ranking. The world doesn't need multiple stories per day about Piers Morgan any more than it needs multiple stories about celebrity bikini bodies like what's on their front page right now. DM is fluff, it's pandering, it has no redeeming value.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by roenxi on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:23AM (#26890852)
> "Kids Cut Another Kid's Hair" just sounds like juvenile hijinks and isn't doing justice to the story.

The alternative take is that story pretty much is just juvenile hijinks, and the NYT is pretty much ginning up a story. A lot of the kids I knew in school were horrible to each other and nobody wrote an article about them.

Most print journalism has gone to the gutter these days, the NYT isn't a respectable institution. There is a bunch of stuff on the internet that is more reliable.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by MikeUt on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:30AM (#26890965)
But it is juvenile hijinks, and did turn out to be patently false.

> The NY Times headline includes relevant details to inform the reader.

Lets see which details were no longer relevant once the story turned out to be false, and the Times (to their credit, unlike the Mail) changed the headline to reflect that:

Update: Virginia Girl Recants Story of Assault, and Family Apologizes - https://web.archive.org/web/20191001003852/https://www.nytim...

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by Jeff_Brown on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @08:06AM (#26888487)
The NYT and most other mainstream news outlets go out of their way to avoid making people angry -- often too much so, IMO.

Many truths are infuriating. Reporting them does not in itself imply a lack of ethics.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by DocTomoe on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @08:39AM (#26888845)
I would not consider anything that is written in the Daily Mail "truth" by any reasonable understanding of the word. They write op-ed pieces at best, and more often than not just make things up or deliberately twist things out of proportion or context.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by rbut on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @07:09AM (#26887965)
All online "journalism" which uses advertising as its main source of revenue does exactly this. For example in Australia we have news.com.au who uses the exact same tactics. In fact their headlines and blurbs are even shorter than Daily Mails, forcing you to click to learn what the carefully worded (yet extremely manipulative) headline is talking about. This is not exclusive to Daily Mail.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by maxehmookau on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @07:53AM (#26888388)
I'd argue the DM was one of the pioneers of this approach. Ad-supported and not-garbage online news sites _do_ exist, although they are a dying breed.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by hermitcrab on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:31AM (#26889429)
The Daily Fail is a hate-filled stain on the name of good journalism. It ran the headlline "Hurrah for the Blackshirts" in the 1930s and it hasn't changed much since. It bears no small part in the UK's currently catastrophic situation. I hope Google takes every penny they have.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by Neil44 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @06:31AM (#26887649)
Right but if true the Daily Mail probably aren’t the only people they’re doing this to.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by tootie on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:25AM (#26889344)
Their business so thoroughly dependent on SEO it's probably worth their while to sue. Even if they lose, getting Google to loosen up a tiny bit out of caution is worth the price.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by ErikVandeWater on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @07:47AM (#26888330)
> If you build your business on clickbait and bullshit "journalism" you can't complain when your main source of traffic decides to squeeze a bit more cash out of your enormous money pit.

Is that a legal argument?

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by maxehmookau on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @07:52AM (#26888380)
Absolutely not. I'm not a lawyer, just a citizen of the UK who has to live in a society that the DM has poisoned over decades.

I have no sympathy whatsoever, but as for the legal case I have no idea how this plays out.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by ErikVandeWater on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @08:03AM (#26888465)
I'm pointing out you're not really adding anything to the discussion. Saying you morally disapprove of the Daily Mail without substantiating it with facts isn't for HN.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by TheOtherHobbes on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @08:45AM (#26888910)
The facts are easy to check.

The DM regularly loses libel cases for publishing fake smears about various victims. But apparently it considers these losses a cost of doing business.

It has been called out for its racism on numerous occasions.

It's notorious for wildly exaggerated tabloid abuse of legitimate refugees and immigrants.

It called judges who forced proper constitutional proceedings during Brexit "enemies of the people" - sparking a record number of complaints to the Independent Press Standards Organisation.

Its comments section is a cesspit of race hate and petty ignorance.

It literally supported Hitler before war was declared.

There isn't a rational case to be made for not disapproving of it morally.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by ben_w on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @08:59AM (#26889056)
> There isn't a rational case to be made for not disapproving of it morally.

That, and I say this with sadness, doesn’t follow from your other points.

It just means they have different morals from you and I.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by TheOtherHobbes on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:58AM (#26890508)
No, that's a both sides false equivalence kind of argument.

In context - and especially in light of yesterday's verdict - it's really rather unconvincing.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by gadders on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:02AM (#26889097)
>> It literally supported Hitler before war was declared.

So did the Daily Mirror. And the Guardian was a big supporter of eugenics. All irrelevant to the current papers.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by TheOtherHobbes on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:04AM (#26890590)
Unlike the rest, the Mail continues to be owned by the same family.

Interestingly, the writer of the article in The Mirror that supported Hitler was one Lord Harmsworth - great grandfather of the current owner of the Mail.

Harmsworth also used to own the Mirror before it was sold and changed its political orientation.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by cesaref on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:33AM (#26889457)
The nicknames for the Daily Mail are quite illuminating:

The Daily Lie, The Daily Hate-Mail, The Daily Heil

Of course these could all have been generated by the left wing liberal elites who have an issue with straight forward honest reporting. Best you have a bit of a google/search engine of choice to determine which is more likely to be true. You could of course try visiting their website and seeing for yourself.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by CountDrewku on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:21PM (#26891716)
So, you support doing this to every major media outlet on the planet? Because they operate on sensationalism just like DM. I'm guessing there's particular outlets you don't want this to happen to because you agree with their bs more than opposing outlets.

Your argument can be summed up by just saying you only want information that supports your preconceived notions available. Which, is obviously bad for a variety of reasons....

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by Spivak on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:39AM (#26889513)
Bad things happening to bad people is still bad if it’s done unjustifiably so. There’s nothing really about this story that prevents it from happening to a site you like.
Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by throwawaysea on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:48AM (#26890359)
To me, this is just a tired hot take. The Daily Mail regularly covers stories that others don’t, and they do so with perspectives and plain speak that others don’t provide. I feel like everyone here attacking the Daily Mail doesn’t actually read them, but are blindly repeating an opinion they’ve been told to hold, because the Daily Mail’s existence is inconvenient for other newspapers and for certain ideologies. It’s tactically easier to attack the source rather than individual pieces of content. We see the same thing with the N.Y. Post.

During these polarized times when censorship is rampant and diverse perspectives are hard to come by, I’m glad to have someone like the Daily Mail around. A recent example of a great article is their story on COVID vaccines potentially affecting menstruation (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9446907/Some-wome...), which they wrote about before any other major news media. Read for yourself and decide how you feel about the content.

Re:Daily Mail owner sues Google over search results by kevin_thibedeau on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:53AM (#26890436)
When you engage in chumbox journalism don't be surprised that all your content gets treated with suspicion.