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Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by cm2187 on Monday March 15, 2021 @06:39AM (#26464342)
Another argument against the "going dark" claim is that before smartphones and the internet, the only conversations the FBI could monitor was through phonelines and mail. These were known to be easily monitored and I doubt there was much more criminal activity happening through those then than now.

I would argue that the conversations that have gone online are the interactions that were previously happening in-person (at least in term of criminal activity), to which the FBI didn't have access before.

There is something Orwellian with the idea that there shouldn't be a word that can be pronounced in the country that the government cannot record and listen to after the fact. The limits of what is legal or not have always moved (see homosexuality, drug and alcohol consumption, etc). So a 100% enforcement of the law is counter-intuitively undesirable.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by lbblack on Monday March 15, 2021 @08:16AM (#26465064)
I find it extremely alarming that law enforcement almost everywhere around the world is attempting to undermine almost a century-fold of legitimate mathematics and science with regards to encryption and cryptography.

It's a tad embarrassing that lawmakers (who aren't even computer scientists like c'mon are we for real here?) somehow forgot how and who broke the Enigma Machine. Alan Turing did that.

Same thing with the Tor browser developed by the US Navy. Either everyone has access to a tool which can guarantee that you can blend in with the rest of the crowd, or every civilian has a special color and we all pop out while the lawmakers and police are somehow wearing grey.

How did cypherpunks and computer scientists get blasted from the government like this? Shouldn't there be some laws regarding digital privacy for US citizens?

Somehow AD revenue is caked everywhere but I can't use a computer without the FBI wanting my social security card? What the duck. Shucks I thought this was America.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by laurent92 on Monday March 15, 2021 @08:29AM (#26465211)
We need to make it strategic to hide our communications. The day the CIA decides that [place any enemy] has routers all over the place in US territory and that their spying is bad, they will mandate the use of Tor instead of discouraging it. We don’t need to be at war, but we need a capable enemy.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:04AM (#26465594)
I heard the balance of power argument before and, well, you were already granted this wish ( and I would argue that you had it granted twice ). Both China and Russia are very capable adversaries at this time and US is slipping from its top dog position. It is genuinely sad to watch.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by throwaway53453 on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:42AM (#26465983)
Russia isn't a threat to the US. Foreign policy maybe, but not existential like China.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by drummojg on Monday March 15, 2021 @11:32AM (#26467170)
Russia is a terrible threat to the US. How much/many of their disinformation and memes (in the traditional sense) are correlated with disrupted political discourse, extremism, and disunity in the US? They don't sponsor squads of disinfo/misinfo actors just for giggles. It has a profound destabilizing bang for their buck.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by spacephysics on Monday March 15, 2021 @06:09PM (#26469880)
Similar disinformation happens domestically, see russiagate
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by voldacar on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:42PM (#26468255)
Tor is not an end-all solution. Hidden services can be trivially unmasked (for an actor like the CIA/NSA) with traffic correlation attacks
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by r3trohack3r on Monday March 15, 2021 @01:44PM (#26469043)
Targeted surveillance is different than mass surveillance, different threat models call for different tools.

https://everytwoyears.org/2020/07/13/tactical-privacy.html

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by mPReDiToR on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:10AM (#26474125)
When all it takes is a quick online search for any agent to access the mass surveillance, all privacy invasion is targetable.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by at-fates-hands on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:55PM (#26468429)
>> Either everyone has access to a tool which can guarantee that you can blend in with the rest of the crowd.

This is already happening. When the NSA decided the best approach to combat terrorism was to scoop up all emails, text, voice and internet browsing of every citizen on a daily basis, they inadvertently created a way we can all "blend in" now.

A perfect example is the Jan 6th capitol attack. It was being planned out on the open, on social media channels. They didn't use any obfuscation in their language and still, even with all the technology they have, the massive surveillance machine couldn't stop it from happening.

I still firmly believe encryption is needed for privacy, but over the last 10-15 years, the insane amount of data being vacuumed up is allowing people to hide in plain site.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by LordDragonfang on Sunday March 21, 2021 @04:35AM (#26528998)
>A perfect example is the Jan 6th capitol attack. It was being planned out on the open, on social media channels. They didn't use any obfuscation in their language and still, even with all the technology they have, the massive surveillance machine couldn't stop it from happening.

While the rest of your point is salient, this example is flat out false. The FBI and multiple police departments were aware of what was about to happen and warned those in charge. It was summarily ignored, because the people in charge believed the rioters were on their side. It could have easily been stopped had they reacted with even a fraction of the force they did with the BLM protests a year earlier. The events of January 6th was a result of institutional prejudice and nothing less, not a lack of information from surveillance.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by _wldu on Monday March 15, 2021 @07:19AM (#26464563)
15 years ago, if I had said that society would build a tracking system and that most people would happily carry a tracker in their pocket and pay monthly fees to support the tracking networks, I would have been laughed out of the room.

But that is what happened, and most people are oblivious to this fact.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by poink on Monday March 15, 2021 @07:37AM (#26464724)
I don't think, "Most people are oblivious," they just don't care and/or don't understand the implications.

The idea that the government can use your mobile phone to spy on you is so widely understood that even the dumbest popcorn movies make sure to show fugitives ditching their phones and criminals collecting/discarding them before they discuss business without explaining why. Everybody understands the purpose of a "burner" phone.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by _wldu on Monday March 15, 2021 @08:18AM (#26465088)
Yes, most everyone knows that they can be tracked.

The point is that we voluntarily paid/pay to build and maintain the tracking infrastructure. That's what most people don't realize.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by tw04 on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:19AM (#26465746)
>I don't think, "Most people are oblivious," they just don't care and/or don't understand the implications.

But they do, that's what's baffling. The number of people I have heard parrot the "Bill Gates put a tracking chip in the vaccine" has me both baffled and worried. These are people who appear to be otherwise completely sane and mostly rational. When I've pointed out that's literally what their phone does, so why would Bill Gates waste any money putting something in a vaccine (ignoring that's not even physically possible) - I get a "well that's different".

They are concerned, but as a non-technical person for some reason they just can't quite wrap their heads around what is happening.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by brokenmachine on Monday March 15, 2021 @07:20PM (#26470625)
>But they do, that's what's baffling

I think it's more that there's no other option.

They need their phone, and they don't like all the tracking just like you or I don't like the tracking, but that's their only option if they want to use a phone.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by mbg721 on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:32AM (#26465861)
They can, but they wish it weren't true. Cell phones have an obvious huge upside, and society has adjusted itself so that you pretty much have to have one. (Ever asked to use somebody's phone?). Meanwhile, one of these technocrats is pushing a vaccine that might as well be magic, developed in an unusually short time, to cure a disease that people think might occasionally kill somebody else, but probably not them. The response makes complete sense.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by clankyclanker on Monday March 15, 2021 @11:01AM (#26466802)
Would it not lead to a horrifying dystopia, it wold be interesting to see how the response changed it the vaccine were marketed as a status symbol.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by jfengel on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @12:32PM (#26479053)
It is notable that vaccine acceptance has gone up now that it is widely available, which also coincides with the departure of an influential politician who had been downplaying the significance of the disease.

It's hard to disentangle the two effects, but there is a burgeoning symbol of status in people literally displaying their vaccine cards. It hasn't completely undone the damage, but it does seem to ameliorate it.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by fsflover on Monday March 15, 2021 @08:57AM (#26465528)
Most people simply have no choice unless you are willing to switch to GNU/Linux phones. Those are not 100% ready for everything yet.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by grishka on Monday March 15, 2021 @01:28PM (#26468873)
It doesn't matter what your phone runs. As long as it's communicating with the network, the carrier knows its location.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by fsflover on Monday March 15, 2021 @05:28PM (#26469332)
Cell towers is far from the only tracking possibility.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by grishka on Monday March 15, 2021 @06:26PM (#26470092)
Yes but it's the only one that's a requirement if you want to actually use your phone.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by mannerheim on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:05PM (#26467670)
Not a silver bullet unless you never let your phone talk to a cell tower - in which case it stops being a phone and starts being a miniature tablet.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by fsflover on Monday March 15, 2021 @05:27PM (#26469316)
At least with Librem 5 you can use the hardware kill switch whenever you need privacy.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by mFixman on Monday March 15, 2021 @11:07AM (#26466885)
15 years ago was 2006. Almost every adult carried a cellphone everywhere back then.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by maerF0x0 on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:53PM (#26468393)
I certainly didn't. But will concede I was definitely a late adopter.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by DerekL on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:48PM (#26471927)
It was 66%. Most adults, but less than “almost every”.

https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/fact-sheet/mobile/

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by bzzzt on Monday March 15, 2021 @08:41AM (#26465347)
I don't know if people are oblivious - it's just that there are a lot of perceived benefits for the user of the 'tracking device'. Tracking people is a byproduct of all the services a modern phone offers (due to technical or monetization reasons).
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by api on Monday March 15, 2021 @10:06AM (#26466216)
Those devices have addictive properties, especially casual mobile games and social media.

In the past addictive properties were enough to get people to do absurd things like roll up leaves, light them on fire, and deliberately huff the smoke. That's arguably more harmful than what mobile devices do to us.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by christophilus on Monday March 15, 2021 @08:39AM (#26465313)
I watched Citizen of the State recently, and the paranoid old man in that movie looks like a normie today.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by ISL on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:54AM (#26466111)
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by TeMPOraL on Monday March 15, 2021 @10:28AM (#26466469)
>> Citizen of the State

> I think you mean Enemy of the State?

Given the topic of mass surveillance, this doesn't sound like much of a distinction...

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by snarf21 on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:32AM (#26465863)
"Hey wiretap, can bunnies eat pancakes?"
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by marcosdumay on Monday March 15, 2021 @11:42AM (#26467319)
15 years ago people did carry a tracker on their pocket already.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by rtkwe on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:12PM (#26467784)
> Another argument against the "going dark" claim is that before smartphones and the internet, the only conversations the FBI could monitor was through phonelines and mail. These were known to be easily monitored and I doubt there was much more criminal activity happening through those then than now.

It doesn't really matter that they quantitatively have access to more to them, from the POV of law enforcement though they had access to everything that was available if they wanted it then and they don't now. Law enforcement chafes and pushes against any attempt to limit them because their self image is that of protectors and good guys so what they do has good reason even if people don't want them to, it's a whole self justifying greater good/ends justify the means self justifying loop a lot of place fall into, including tech companies. You see it constantly with unjustified searches, stops and seizures, given a limit, eg the requirement for probable cause for a search, police find any way around it they can to justify the action they already want to take, eg smell of drugs or 'acting suspicious'.

There are definitely crimes that go unsolved because police can't monitor everything 24/7, that irritates a group tasked with 'protecting' society so they push back. We feel the same thing in software engineering to a certain extent, governance, architectural approval, etc all suck to work with but they exist for a reason in big orgs but just because they're useful agencies doesn't mean they suck less when you're held up because the architects take 3 months to approve something and want 20 Powerpoint decks to do it.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by scruffyherder on Monday March 15, 2021 @08:21AM (#26465123)
I’ll take 15kg of pastrami for the Miami delivery. I’m getting a pushback on the new price on Genoa but Eddie tells me he knows he can smooth it over.

The dates however are spoiled,it’s going to need a total clean.

I am the walrus.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by dredmorbius on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @01:18PM (#26479803)
Metadata --- who you talk to and when, is both easier to code and often provides more useful information than message contents.

See Lasswell. "Who (says) What (to) Whom (in) What Channel (with) What Effect".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasswell%27s_model_of_communic...

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by fishmaster on Monday March 15, 2021 @08:46AM (#26465401)
The chihuahua flies at noon.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by snarf21 on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:37AM (#26465924)
Yeah, these things are scary. My test for people who ask for these backdoors is to ask for them to hand me their unlocked mobile. I promise to not share any information I read/see. There is an expression in this area that I love (but I can't remember the exact phrase): If you follow anyone around for some small period of time, you will find them guilty of breaking the law.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by Jabbermonkey on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:57AM (#26466146)
"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." - Cardinal Richelieu (disputed)
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:53PM (#26468397)
I don't think that is quite comparable to now.

Back in France at the time of Richelieu, there wasn't a concept of free speech or religious freedom. Thus if you said that you thought the king was an idiot, you could be hanged. Or you doubted the Church, or doubted God existed.

Remember, blasphemy could be punished by death at that time.

Nowadays, in most free democracies you are free to say you don't believe in religion, or think the leaders are idiots and there are minimal consequences.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by loceng on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:06AM (#26465608)
Indeed, the internet amplified and accelerate everything - but as we've seen, arguably the largest harm that can come is through mass manipulation via public propaganda that's promoted - and that's not encrypted.

It's arguably different industrial complexes that have lead to mass surveillance, perhaps mostly the military-security industrial complex, that has lead to the current path; fear as a distraction from what's really needed is healing and strengthening the individual to not be brittle and prone to manipulation.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by alkonaut on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:36AM (#26465917)
> I would argue that the conversations that have gone online are the interactions that were previously happening in-person (at least in term of criminal activity), to which the FBI didn't have access before.

Indeed. But those conversations/meetings were visible, risky etc. They were thus possible to monitor/attack and they weren't scalable.

From the perspective of law enforcement, criminals being able to discuss crimes or make payments without there being a phyiscal exchange is a nightmare. In the past, they could monitor meetings between criminals. Now they basically need to look over the shoulder of criminals in order to prove that CriminalA spoke to CriminalB. It must be extremely difficult.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by sneak on Monday March 15, 2021 @10:31AM (#26466503)
Nah, they just need to issue a wiretap order to the encrypted messenger app's centralized servers.

Even end to end encrypted systems know who is talking to who, and how often, and where those two parties are (due to client IP geolocation).

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by tremon on Monday March 15, 2021 @10:59AM (#26466787)
Not really, even at my work we have (well, had) regular swap-meets for supermarket discount trackers. So one week I would shop as badge #1, the next week I would be badge #2. Just knowing the identity of the person who was issued the account doesn't give you any information about who's using it now.

In aggregate, you would still be able to identify which group of people used which endpoints, but aggregate information won't hold up in court.

Yes, geolocation would solve that, but I would expect such people to absolutely disable the GPS, so you'd need to rely on cell tower pings, which are not found on the same servers.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by mannerheim on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:11PM (#26467762)
With a decentralised protocol + Tor that sort of metadata could be either unavailable or extremely difficult to ascertain.
Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by jtbayly on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:20AM (#26465760)
But mail and phone were essentially the only methods of long-distance communication. The new methods of long-distance instant communication are not just groundbreaking for organizing legal business.

Something really has fundamentally changed with the introduction of instant encrypted messages. I'm for that change, and against the government attempting to ban it.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by leetcrew on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:32AM (#26465866)
it's not like you can't implement encrypted comms over mail and phone in the first place. people with a strong enough incentive (and nerds) have been using symmetric encryption for a long time.

what has changed is, like you say, how trivially easy it is to send instant encrypted messages. what was once the domain of spy agencies and organized crime is now practical for my mom to ask me what I would like for dinner. one wonders why the FBI finds that so concerning.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by rubyfan on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:24PM (#26467979)
> The limits of what is legal or not have always moved (see homosexuality, drug and alcohol consumption, etc). So a 100% enforcement of the law is counter-intuitively undesirable.

This is perhaps one of the more simple and persuasive arguments against domestic surveillance and spying that I’ve heard.

Re:The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption by hertzrat on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:01PM (#26467612)
Anybody serious about this issue should contact their representatives to let them know it’s a concern.