At risk of sounding snarky, I'm growing in awareness that the anonymous nature of paper money and coin had a lot of advantages. I would be unhappy if the only option for groceries in my area required me to strongly identify myself to shop there.

There kind of isn't, at least in Sweden. The option that does exist is a seedy borderline scam with exorbitant overhead and hidden usury fees, which will effectively confiscate your remaining money a few months in.

Also, in stark contrast to real cash, it still results in a log of all the transactions and ties them up to one weakly pseudonymous identity which will be re-identified at one single purchase with an identifiable connection, or could by from a collection of weaker clues. That is, for instance, goodbye to ever using it for anything with an account, unless you also want to announce you probably bought everything else the card was ever used for.

It's cheaper to dump toxic waste in the bay than to have someone neutralize it as well, and personally I'm positively delighted the resulting products cost more instead. There are lots discounts that should be shunned, and in my opinion this one is a prime example.

If you have the means to tally an order and a card terminal, though, you could have a kiosk with a note acceptor attached.

You can have a non-swedish Revolut/N26/Bunq/Curve account, and use that card instead, that way you are not directly linked to your cashless purchases.

This is a Pareto optimal action.

The strongest reason for it would probably be the old 'power corrupts', as we can see just about anybody with access to it, be it a person or organization in the past. No reason to be so naive to think some other place is special and avoids it. And knowing basically everything about any individual is a massive amount of power and very personal. Also rarely are these kinds of laws repelled, in contrary, the data are just too sweet and there is always the next terrorist threat to prevent.

You did not reply to my first and main statement. Probably because you agreed with it. In the past shops had other methods of preventing shoplifting. Some of these methods also involved keeping track of what people did. Not information stored in databases, but in the heads of people. What I just wanted to say is that we are happy if some kind of system is used to catch the bad people, but not us, because we think of ourselves as being good. Many shoplifters also think of themselves as good, because they beat the system or have the right to do it because society treated them unfair. Or maybe just because of the fun of doing it. I understand that a high percentage of people did some shoplifting at some point in their lives. And many would do more if there would be no chance of being caught.

I simply wanted to point out that safety (as in preventing crimes) and privacy are in opposition with eachother and that each society has to find a way to balance them. It is also expected that your opinion on that balance is influenced on your position in that society.

I know this is the age old "I have nothing to hide" argument but I truly am curious why people are so afraid of saying where they're travelling (train tickets) or what they're buying (shops).

Don't you think that once that dystopian future comes - when that info might be used against you - we'll have much worse things to worry about?

First of all, you're being disingenious by putting up a strawman argument about "how much milk and eggs you buy." It is never about only milk and eggs. Advertising is only a part of it. Once you have an ID required to shop there, you can easily track who was there. You can follow their movements around the shop with cameras once you've identified them at the register. You can see who was with them. You can use this for your own gains, let's say you are a bank employee or police officer who wants to keep tabs on your spouse. Or maybe you are a politician who wants to run a smear campaign on your opponent.

Also whether we'll have much worse things to worry about doesn't mean everything else before guillotines on the street can be hand-waved away.

I think it's obvious that the data would not be public domain but stored strongly secured somewhere with very limited access. There are already very strict data privacy laws in Europe and the trend is clearly towards even more strictness.

I, too, don't see any issue as long the as the laws punish misuse of private data.

Never forget that while you may be one of the privileged now, your status will change throughout your life. If you’re lucky you will only become a more privileged individual, if not, you may wish to have a few more anonymous interactions on a regular basis.

Protecting privacy isn’t so much about not caring who knows the quantity of eggs you buy a week it’s about acknowledging history and the fickle winds of change. It’s sort of easy to believe that progressive attitudes will continue to prevail and that history tends to lead to increasing enlightenment, but there are often major backslides on issues of social norms and inclusiveness. It’s also about realizing that what you do today might not get you in trouble, but what you did last year might, even though last year no one would have thought twice about what you did.

That plan has literally never worked throughout history.

That may be an obvious intent, but I do not believe it is obvious the implementation will succeed in achieving those goals. From past experience, it rarely has.

None of it is critical information, but I'm not only handing it out, I'm wrapping it up into a neat, searchable bundle for bulk analysis. And more importantly, there will soon be no easy way to opt out; anyone who truly does have something to hide will be obvious by the lengths they must go to in doing so. This is one more step in a dangerous, inhuman direction.

Not in Sweden, because only state-run stores can sell alcohol (above 3.5% alcohol to be exact) - it's called Systembolaget and they already know exactly how much you drink!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget

The price is the same at all stores and there's a price list online: http://www.olcc.state.or.us/pdfs/monthly_alpha_price_list_c....

A lot of business is done in cash at these stores. They're traditionally a lucrative place to rob because of the cash. There seems to be some people who don't want to be tracked but mostly the cash customers seem to be people who deal more with cash themselves.

Not if you pay with cash they don't.

What if this kind of technology helps create that dystopian future? What if this kind of technology makes it worse, or at least harder to fix? More sinister and more protracted, so to speak.

We aren't in that future yet, and it won't happen overnight or through one big rollout. We'll get to that future through small, incremental steps that all seem perfectly reasonable at the time.

You could use lots and lots of examples where market forces and banks could influence human behavior through this method. There is freedom and power in using cash.

Why use mobile phones or credit cards? Or ID cards? or ISP subscriptions? It could all be tracked! Let's just do everything by landlines and faxes like Germany...

oh, good idea. but i think that's quite literally the entire point of people's concerns in the first place.

I might be the boring-est person on the planet - lets say nothing about me is of any value to anyone. It is still nobody's business to know even the most mundane aspect of my life. My life is my business, just like your life is your business. Thats all.

Yes I prefer that for everyone (not just me), including people in government, so that I don't have to worry about hiding the information. Hiding the information has its associated cost.

Transparency for everyone to level the playing field.

Sure its your business to be private but as times goes and as technology advances it going to be more difficult and expensive.

I don't understand why you should decide for others? If you want to put all of your info online, that is your choice. If I don't want to put my info online, that is my choice.

Its the data on why you suddenly stopped buying alcohol after buying a pregnancy test a month before.

Who works at the store? Your former teacher? A prior fling? A neighbor? Does it matter when it can all be leaked with everyones data by a hacker anywhere when the ransom isn't paid by the store?

Bought four bottles of olive oil? You're going to get very fat, better make you pay a premium! Who cares if you actually used it to make soap?

Don't hold back technology and society just because of a few other issues - those other issues can be better resolved directly. In this case, with single-payer public healthcare.

conversely, don't presume that what you're advocating for is "advancing" technology and society, either.

If you know that, you already know why it is a specious argument.

They can see sexual activity, if you're a parent/expecting, a ton of health information, if you're a smoker, your physical location, and more.

This isn't about eggs and milk. The data in combination constitutes a greater breach of privacy than the most dedicated stalker could hope to achieve.

Maybe you should read some dystopian fiction. You can see just how much we have to worry about, even in a "paradise".

so the most likely scenario is even if data will be collected on you, nobody will be able to use it in any meaningful way

It's just eggs and milk after all...

I don't agree. I'm a Swede too (as I assume you are), and I have basically never heard anyone complain of BankID being owned by the banks. I am really happy that our government does not own BankID, since they suck badly at developing software.

They also have rules against being logged in for too long, and against identity transfer (directly or indirectly using BankID to authenticate for a different login method) [1], since that would result in fewer BankID logins and less revenue for them.

One result of the latter restriction is that any letters containing authentication codes need to be sent by physical mail, since all digital mailboxes such as Kivra and the government-run "Min myndighetspost" support login by BankID. The University Admissions service (antagning.se) were forced to stop sending codes through digital mailboxes due to this [2].

[1]: https://twitter.com/antagningse/status/1178957770978140160

[2]: https://computersweden.idg.se/2.2683/1.643894/skatteverket-s...

Are you sure they can set the prices "freely"? Many regulated monopolies like this are restricted in their pricing.

(disclaimer, not a swede)

This leads to friction and situations where some people are essentially excluded from large parts of society.

The banks also don't seem to be all that interested in interacting with their invidual customers in the flesh.

I think the natural conclusion of this is that the issuing of electronic IDs becomes a government responsibility, decoupled from banking.

The feeling's mutual! I have been using the same bank for over 15 years and only visited once and by accident.

- 18 months ago I tried to facilitate creating a corporate bank account managed by a foreign CEO from a non-EU and very first-world country in order to be able to create a Swedish company (AB) with the goal of hiring software people here in Sweden. Tried two banks (SEB and Handelsbanken) before giving up and going another route.

My impression is that Swedish banks have tightened up things quite a lot in the past few years.

There might be tricks via Cyprus or so, but that will only let you create the AB - you still need a Swedish corporate bank account to pay your employees the proper way.

I agree that something needs to be done.

They have been innovative in the past:

1996/1997: Mass adoption of two-factor hardware devices providing secure authentication for online banking.

2003: Leveraging the two-factor hardware devices to create BankID.

A service like this needs to be infrastructure, one way or another. Secure, reasonably neutral, trusted... You don't want it serving as a retaining wall for a monopoly.

If you actually mean a company using blockchain in other ways: do you have any examples?

So since HN is a place primarily for technologists who like to push things forward, maybe you have a stronger argument than just saying that you’re a Swede?

Swedes also use the BankID app for online interactions with health care and other public services. Last year I did my taxes in under 60 seconds. (Get notification; BankID login; check prefilled values from bank, employer etcetera; BankID sign.)

https://digst.dk/it-loesninger/mitid/partnerskabet/

It is a curious construction; we wouldn't accept a personal id card issued / owned by banks but for the digital equivalent we do so with little debate.

Passports only became legal IDs in the last decade or so.

We're not civilized enough here in the US for such nice things.

The other piece of the puzzle is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Enforcement_Authority

Basically the government runs debt collection in Sweden. They have the ability to withdraw money from your bank account.

All of this is enabled by every resident having a (public) personal identity number.

[1] https://youtu.be/HmOIQv0yu-U?t=480

It's generally cheaper to call the cops and file an insurance claim than it is to deal with worker's comp or lawsuits if something goes sideways.

Yes. It's a bit cumbersome, so there are companies specializing in doing this for small debts (say < $5000).

> Are there any drawbacks/cases of misuse?

Hard to say. My impression is that having one trusted party to manage debt collection makes it easier to handle the edge cases in a more humane way, but I haven't really delved into this area.

> Does the government keep a credit score too?

No.

There is sadly little awareness of it being a private joint venture between banking and telecom.

I don't know if it is realistic to expect governments to come up/run this, but when they promote it, I think it should at least be open source.

But it's very expensive to integrate it and it's Ogone all over again ( most expensive option = the Belgian one) ~3€ / user/year for the most complete option for ( what is basically) a login verification.

I know from trips to sweden that a lot of people use a custom payment system called swish that only exists in sweden, but I never had trouble paying with a visa card (with cash is sometimes a problem in sweden).

No you can use it on a PC too.

I've always had it turned off, never had an issue.

On Android.

Edit: because having your birthday right there as part of common ID number is an obvious transgression of privacy that wasn't probably thought of back when the number was established. How anyone could disagree with this is beyond me.

Having one's date of birth signalled to the world is an obvious breach of privacy in the modern age, and since there is obviously no need for it, it shouldn't be used.

That you have 'never heard of a concern' not hugelry if there are obviously people who are going to take umbrage - moreover - in this new information world order it can be used for all sorts of shady reasons.

There's clearly no need of it.

If the scheme were designed today, there's a 0% chance of DOB being used in the number.