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Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by marshmallow_12 on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:53AM (#26385700)
Will lots of electricity be lost in transmission? Also, this article is very scant on information, why is this project mutually beneficial for Greece, Cyprus and Israel? I understand a bit the other commenter who thinks it's in order to poke Turkey in the eye.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by Someone on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:03AM (#26385828)
It enables trade in electricity between the countries.

Certainly with more and more power coming from renewables that can’t be switched on or off at will, that’s a gain for all.

Also, as to the poking, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_Authority_of_Cypru... says:

“In 2015, the EAC generated a total of 4,128 GWh of electricity consuming 947,226 tonnes of fuel costing €288,632,000. Maximum demand in the areas controlled by the Republic of Cyprus reached 939 MW. A total of 2.0 GWh of the produced electricity in 2015 valued €240,000 ended up in the area occupied by Turkey and no money could be collected for it.”

I guess that might stop once Cyprus can export power to the EU (but I also wonder why they would produce such excessive amounts of electricity. Could be to keep the peace, because they promised the UN, or something similar?)

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by petertodd on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:32AM (#26386146)
About 36% of Cyprus by area has been occupied by Turkey since 1974: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus

The amount that couldn't be collected is less than 1% of the total generation. So my guess is it's due to decades old infrastructure where lines just happen to cross over to where the dividing line ended up. Something similar happened in Berlin, where two West Berlin train lines happened to pass through East Berlin briefly, and were allowed to continue to do so even after the wall went up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_U-Bahn

I can easily see the utility deciding that it's easier and cheaper to just let a small bit of power get stolen than incur the costs of changing that infrastructure, as well as the PR costs of cutting off that power. Overall grid losses are likely to be 5% or so anyway.

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by quiescant_dodo on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:51PM (#26394867)
Thanks for linking about Turkish occupation of Cyprus. I was completely unaware. There's a nice map in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Buffer_Zone_in_... if anyone is curious about what the separation looks like today.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by Someone on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:13AM (#26386556)
Oops. Misread that American comma thousands separator as a decimal one, thinking it was close to 50%. That makes a huge difference.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by xxpor on Monday March 08, 2021 @02:52PM (#26390640)
* English language comma thousands separator

You'll never find . used as a thousands separator in the UK, Australia or English-speaking Canada either.

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by magicalhippo on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:58AM (#26386409)
> Certainly with more and more power coming from renewables that can’t be switched on or off at will, that’s a gain for all.

Just today there was a story in the news here in Norway how the windmills in Sweden is causing a massive price disparity between north and south of Norway, due to lack of transmission capability.

These days the price disparity can be over 50%, and Sweden is planning to massively expand their windmill generation up north.

[1]: https://www.nrk.no/urix/tror-svensk-vindkraftsatsing-vil-gi-...

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by sandos on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @01:37AM (#26396077)
Yeah, our "north-south" infrastructure is behind and it will take about 20 years to fully resolve, sorry it impacts you Norway!

:)

Sweden has an interesting problem where we want to build more wind power, but it can only really be done in the north at scale, but then the transmission capacity down south is missing, and that's where all the consumers are!

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by Bost on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @06:18AM (#26397730)
Same situation in Germany
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by mordae on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:28AM (#26386096)
So the beaches of Iraklion won't smell like diesel anymore?
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by _Microft on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:59AM (#26385775)
It is a high-voltage direct current transmission line, so I would expect losses to be well below 5% per 1000km.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current#Ad...

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by raverbashing on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:07AM (#26385872)
Yeah, DC is pretty much a need for under(salt)water, maybe except for very short distances.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by cr1895 on Monday March 08, 2021 @12:22PM (#26388443)
For offshore wind farms, typically only very long export cables are HVDC, or long interconnector cables. Inter-array and export cables up to around 100km or so are AC.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by LargoLasskhyfv on Friday March 12, 2021 @12:28PM (#26438266)
Traditionally, or at current times?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Troll and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Visby%E2%80%93N%C3%A4s

come to mind.

Those two examples are rather small. Not even at the level of supergrid interconnectors proposed, or built elsewhere.

Technology improves and its availability and costs change. In this case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulated-gate_bipolar_transis... which appear everywhere from induction cooking fields/plates in household appliances to power electronics in electric cars and locomotives, upwards to so called smart- or super-grids(in their endpoints/substations). I'm sure there are even more applications of the enabling IGBTs which I'm unaware of.

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by marshmallow_12 on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:38AM (#26386203)
Saltwater specifically, or just in practice?
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by gmueckl on Monday March 08, 2021 @11:46AM (#26387842)
Saltwater is a very poor dielectric between wires (it is a high resistance conductor actually). An AC line would have a low efficiency because the dissolved ions transport a leak current between the wires. Around a DC line, electric field just generates an ion gradient once when powered on (and assuming the insulation doesn't experience electrolysis).

Long AC lines in air also have a finite resistance between wires, but it is much higher and not much of a concern.

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by koheripbal on Monday March 08, 2021 @05:32PM (#26392564)
Does a long distance DC line even need a negative wire, or can you just connect it to ground at the destination?
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by tim333 on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @09:35AM (#26399136)
They can work without a return wire. It sounds like this system is designed to be able to work that way in case of faults:

>The use of two HVDC cables will provide the link between all four sites. The use of two cables constitutes the bipolar operation of the project. A return path through earth, however, is provided in order to allow for the reinstatement of rated or half-rated power transfer through converter switching, in case of faults and disconnections of one of the two 500MW elements of the converter, or one of the two HVDC cable links.

(https://www.euroasia-interconnector.com/wp-content/uploads/2... p17)

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by spectralwarp on Monday March 08, 2021 @06:46PM (#26393249)
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by simonebrunozzi on Monday March 08, 2021 @04:43PM (#26392041)
Upvoted, and let me add: what a fantastic comment - deep and clear and easy to grasp.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by marcosdumay on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:24AM (#26386676)
The more conductive the surroundings of the cables, the more losses you'll get by induction.

Fresh water is way worse than air, and salt water way worse than fresh.

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by ziofill on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:35AM (#26386797)
worse as in more conductive
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by marcosdumay on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:42AM (#26386865)
Worse as in larger losses, that is the consequence of more conductivity, so yeah, you can read it that way too.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by bombcar on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:54AM (#26387000)
I believe AC current creates magnetic interference that is greatly magnified in water - causing "drag" on the transmission if you will.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by ncmncm on Monday March 08, 2021 @02:06PM (#26390071)
What it creates is induction currents in the surrounding water, with dissolved ions being pulled this way and that, against drag of the water, as the fields vary.

On DC lines, fields don't vary (much) so induce negligibly little currents.

In fresh water, there are fewer dissolved ions, but not none. Losses are less.

In perfectly pure water, small losses would come from swinging water molecules to point this way and that. Raindrops hanging on AC transmission line wires consume negligible power.

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by gmueckl on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @02:06AM (#26396228)
Pure water has self-dissociation, so it always contains small amounts of ions (that's why pure water has a pH and pOH of 7). Butthe dipole moments of H2O molecules dominate theinteractqiqo
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by bombcar on Monday March 08, 2021 @02:55PM (#26390683)
I suppose that's what things like this [0] do?

[0] https://www.homedepot.com/p/Scalewatcher-Nano-Electronic-Des...

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by ncmncm on Monday March 08, 2021 @04:52PM (#26392153)
Those purport to operate on the ions themselves, supposedly to favor one kind of crystallization pattern over others. In lab conditions, a permanent magnet is said to work equally well, presumably interacting with the ions as they flow past.

From what I have been able to determine, nobody has shown that such a gadget works with any reliability. I.e., it might work under certain circumstances, but there is no way to know if your water and pipes match such a circumstance without buying. And, the prices quoted seem badly excessive. There is probably not more than $5 worth of parts in there, if in fact there are any.

Personally, I would not buy one. You could experiment with a permanent magnet, but it would be hard to know if it was helping or making it worse.

A somewhat similar sort of gadget is supposed to actually work, on diesel immediately before injection into truck engine combustion chambers, to produce more complete combustion.

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by siculars on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:55AM (#26385734)
Greece, Cyprus and Israel are natural allies in the geo political oneupsmanship that is the middle east. Israel provides the technology and protection to execute this maneuver.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by cobookman on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:06PM (#26393987)
Israel also just signed a bunch of peace deals. With this network easily expanded to those countries.

So long as Israel plans for a future where such arrangements get rescinded, they could safely operate an energy market across the middle east and parts of Europe.

Could be a good counter way to counter russian oil, and pave way for a very lucrative post-oil society. Middle eastern countries have a lot of solar and empty land for energy-storage. With many of these middle eastern countries having the capital for large green-tech investments.

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by koheripbal on Monday March 08, 2021 @05:35PM (#26392589)
Since this is a counter to Turkish influence, it is a good thing
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by RobertoG on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:01AM (#26385797)
I think you are underestimating greatly Greece military capabilities with that comment.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by siculars on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:17AM (#26385983)
No, I’m fairly confident in that comment. Any ranking of military capabilities on virtually any dimension puts Israel in a higher tier than Greece.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/02/26/ten-st...

https://ceoworld.biz/2020/03/03/ranked-military-strength-of-...

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by herodoturtle on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:50AM (#26386331)
> Any ranking of military capabilities on virtually any dimension puts Israel in a higher tier than Greece.

Those rankings are accurate when looking through the lens of "how many offensive resources do they have", but when you say "on virtually any dimension" I think one needs to also take geography into account.

For example Switzerland is also ranked well below Israel, but good luck invading the Swiss on their home turf.

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by ceejayoz on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:04AM (#26386479)
Switzerland isn't a great example; they're on friendly enough terms with the EU their air force had 8-5 office hours until a few years ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/feb/19/swis...

Israel is... not in a comparable "surrounded by friendly democracies" scenario.

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by mhh__ on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:31AM (#26386750)
The Swiss thing is a weird one because anyone who actually wants to invade Switzerland is probably going to be mad enough to just start bombing all the civilians with nerve gas or similar. The Swiss air force for example consists of some F-5s and some regular Hornets so I wouldn't bet on them for long either.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by tim333 on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @09:47AM (#26399270)
Greece is part of both NATO and the EU which would likely be an issue for anyone going military on them.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by ocschwar on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:37AM (#26386191)
Apples and oranges. It's been 2200 years since Jews and Greeks last fought, and both sides aim to keep it that way.

Israel has 0 island-hopping capabilities compared to Greece's ability to patrol its Aegean waters.

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by gorkemyurt on Monday March 08, 2021 @01:36PM (#26389654)
Outside of germany and poland most jews died in greece in the Holocaust. Salonika had a vibrant jewish population in early 1900s and now virtually no jews live in Salonika. During ottoman times greeks and jews were fierce enemies and killed each other in many occasions in Istanbul, Smyrna, Alexandria and Salonika.. Jews, mostly loyal to ottamans during the greek independence war were punished (aka murdered) by the greek army in many occasions.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by elorant on Monday March 08, 2021 @02:15PM (#26390192)
Outside of germany and poland most jews died in greece in the Holocaust.

"Most" as a percentage, not an absolute number. There were approximately 60.000 Jews who were murdered from Greece which amounts for 87% of the total Jewish population in the country. Hungary had some 500k loses, Poland 3M, Romania at least 200k, Soviet Union 1,3M etc.

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by ocschwar on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @12:05PM (#26413465)
It is true that in the Ottoman and Czarist mercantile cities, ethnic riots did involve Jews and Greeks, sometimes against each other. I should have specifically said Jewish and Greek armies.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by throwaway894345 on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:19AM (#26386625)
> It's been 2200 years since Jews and Greeks last fought

Which conflict was that?

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by ocschwar on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:27AM (#26386710)
the Maccabean Revolt.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by TedDoesntTalk on Monday March 08, 2021 @02:52PM (#26390645)
Still celebrated today as part of the Jewish holiday Hanukkah
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by marshmallow_12 on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:39AM (#26386228)
Israel has a navy, and nuclear-fitted subs allegedly.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by kuschku on Monday March 08, 2021 @02:19PM (#26390256)
Israel and Greece even use the same dieselhydroelectric TKMS submarines (just Israel using a special larger version with special features).
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by newsclues on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:44AM (#26386900)
Navy’s aren’t interchangeable.

Is real has many costal patrol ships and a few subs. The Greeks have a navy suitable for their archipelago waters

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by ocschwar on Monday March 08, 2021 @11:09AM (#26387221)
Israel could do Greece a favor send some IDF forces to play as the Turks and war game a land invasion on the Thracian border. It would be a useful exercise for Greece because Israel's infantry capabilities map closer to Turkey's than to Greece's.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by elorant on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @10:18AM (#26399566)
Greece and Israel do a joint military exercise each year on the Greek peninsula. Mostly land and air forces.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by cblconfederate on Monday March 08, 2021 @11:17AM (#26387329)
The islands need connections to have a stable grid. Crete for example has maxed out its capacity to produce from renewables and needed new cables to export to the mainland. For this reason it still runs an oil plant. Islands in general are a very hard case for renewables.

The project that is meant to "poke turkey in the eye" is the EuroMed gas pipeline which is a different project.

But to be fair, turkey is welcome to join both forums, although this will probably mean that they will have to accept the application of international law in their maritime borders

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by simonh on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @06:14AM (#26397698)
Israel has a complicated relationship with Turkey. The current islamist ruling party in Turkey is anti-Zionist and are keen on showing solidarity with the Palestinians.

On the other hand Israel and Turkey have mutual regional enemies and have collaborated both economically and militarily. Turkey manufactures and uses the Israeli Popeye missile under license, and I'm sure there are other collaborations I'm not aware of. Israeli teams have helped in earthquake relief efforts in Turkey. Historically the Jewish population of the Ottoman Empire were loyal subjects, because Ottoman hegemony provided them with security against their Arab neighbours.

So I doubt the Israelis are primarily doing this to spite the Turks, they're not exactly best buddies and it's useful to have leverage, but it's not in their interests to antagonise Turkey unnecessarily. I think it's just a matter of Israel looking after their own best interests in terms of energy security.

To be honest Greeks and Cypriots making life better for themselves doesn't have to be inherently a slight against Turkey either. I think the geopolitical dimension of this is over-baked.

Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by parsimo2010 on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:00AM (#26385787)
I expect the cables will be quite fat (physically) which reduces their resistance. Also, by increasing the voltage, you decrease the current for any given power, which decreases the resistive losses. So yes, there will be some losses in transmission (as is the case for literally all power transmission methods), but engineers clearly consider this and design around it.
Re:Israel, Cyprus and Greece agree to link power grids via s... by toomuchtodo on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:38AM (#26386199)
HVDC cables are very efficient physically. Haven't dived into this cable's details yet, but you can push 1.5GW over two conductors roughly 5" in diameter each.