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Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by PragmaticPulp on Thursday March 04, 2021 @03:21PM (#26347709)
I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks.

However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ourselves. I'm not suggesting that we let social media companies off the hook, but battling this problem is going to require more than simply shaming them in Medium posts. We have to start reminding people that they are in control of their decisions, and that they can take steps to reduce their social media usage to healthy levels.

I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see. We also need to encourage people to take control of their feeds, muting users and topics who draw them into unproductive discussions.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by mywittyname on Thursday March 04, 2021 @03:41PM (#26347981)
> I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see.

I see it more akin to the opioid crisis. Just like drug manufactures shouldn't be pushing opioids as a way to deal with minor pain and depression because they know it hooks users. Maybe social media companies shouldn't be pushing hateful and outrageous content to hook their users.

You can sing about personal responsibility all you want. But these companies pay scientists millions of dollars a year to come up with ways to keep you hooked. The only way to win is not to play the game. Normal people are seriously outgunned here.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by misdichotomy on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:39PM (#26348767)
> Normal people are seriously outgunned here.

This is quite right. PragmaticPulp's phrase "an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals" is a bit of rhetorical jujitsu, creating a strawman to set up a rallying cry "I believe people have agency!" You don't have to assume that individuals are "helpless", as if they are generally helpless and lacking agency, to agree that these corporations are exploiting them.

That said, people's agency is limited (bounded rationality). Awareness of how one is being manipulated is not evenly distributed among the population (asymmetric information). And even when there is awareness, people are unevenly affected by it and unevenly empowered to deal with it.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by gnicholas on Thursday March 04, 2021 @06:57PM (#26350298)
It’s not just normal people who are outgunned — I am tech-savvy and have had an iPhone since the day they were released. I know how to modify notification settings, but there’s nothing I can do preemptively when can simply Twitter add a new category of notifications, as they did the other day. I had to go into the notification settings within the app and disable this new category, and then do it again for each of the three accounts on my phone.

Similarly, Lyft makes it nearly impossible to figure out where to turn off the coupon notifications. And don’t get me started on LinkedIn...

This isn’t just an issue for normal people. It’s also time-consuming and troublesome for anyone short of the dev who built the dark pattern.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by guntars on Thursday March 04, 2021 @11:04PM (#26352534)
Why would you have notifications turned on for Twitter? Just turn them off. The trick is to intentionally go on social media and waste time, instead of being pulled in by a notification.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by gnicholas on Thursday March 04, 2021 @11:48PM (#26352849)
I use Twitter for my startup and want to get mention and retweet notifications. I turn off all others, and as a result I get only a handful of notifications per week.

What annoys me is new categories of notifications that Twitter turns on by default, even for users who have disabled all of these novel/generic/impersonal notification types.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by smichel17 on Friday March 05, 2021 @08:58AM (#26356897)
You're struggling against the unbalanced power dynamic that proprietary software creates between developers and users.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by danaliv on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:49PM (#26348893)
Indeed, that's precisely what makes these techniques so powerful. For many people, even self-knowledge isn't a reliable defense.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by Aunche on Thursday March 04, 2021 @08:12PM (#26351086)
> This is quite right. PragmaticPulp's phrase "an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals" is a bit of rhetorical jujitsu, creating a strawman...

How is this a strawman? This article is absolutely this inflamatory, if not more so.

> Reddit, for example, has always obfuscated the true Karma score (“to prevent vote brigading”)

There is no reason to believe otherwise. Everyone from Youtube and cheat-bot detection services utilizes the same strategy.

> To the contrary, the Ministries of Truth, Peace, Love, and Plenty will all be private (or publicly traded) entities.

Basically, the conclusion is that we're inevitably going to turn into 1984. There isn't even a suggestion of how to change the situation.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by TeMPOraL on Friday March 05, 2021 @05:07AM (#26355077)
And, there's only so much time in the day. Nobody can afford to keep up to date with every possible threat the market throws at us, and to stay vigilant and proactive. You end up picking your battles.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by goatinaboat on Thursday March 04, 2021 @06:18PM (#26349897)
these companies pay scientists millions of dollars a year to come up with ways to keep you hooked

Exactly like tobacco companies had scientists on the payroll to boost addiction. That is the best and most accurate analogue for Facebook I believe, it’s like smoking, it’s addictive and it externalises its harmful effects.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by tppiotrowski on Thursday March 04, 2021 @03:59PM (#26348226)
Can you provide some reading material about the scientists that get paid millions of dollars to keep you hooked? This is the first time I’ve heard of scientists involved.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by ceejayoz on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:20PM (#26348505)
There are lots of examples of this.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/18/facebook-cambri...

> He was hired to work at Facebook as a quantitative social psychologist around November 2015, roughly two months after leaving GSR, which had by then acquired data on millions of Facebook users.

https://venturebeat.com/2014/06/07/exclusive-to-sell-ads-in-...

> Corey has been working as a quantitative researcher at Facebook since last summer. His growth research team has “two sociologists and a manager trained in communications with a sociologist as an advisor,” according to an article he published early this year. The team helps expand Facebook to developing countries. Corey uses R-based software stack, collects data via Hive and uses a few other coding languages to do his job.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/06/every...

> We now know that’s exactly what happened two years ago. For one week in January 2012, data scientists skewed what almost 700,000 Facebook users saw when they logged into its service. Some people were shown content with a preponderance of happy and positive words; some were shown content analyzed as sadder than average. And when the week was over, these manipulated users were more likely to post either especially positive or negative words themselves.

> This tinkering was just revealed as part of a new study, published in the prestigious Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Many previous studies have used Facebook data to examine “emotional contagion,” as this one did. This study is different because, while other studies have observed Facebook user data, this one set out to manipulate it.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by theplague42 on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:02PM (#26348269)
Literally any analyst or data science job related to growth or user engagement on social media.

https://research.fb.com/category/data-science/

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by tacocataco on Thursday March 04, 2021 @07:12PM (#26350461)
Thanks for the link.

I feel the downvotes were unwarranted. (Not accusing you of Downvoting) Perhaps the user isn't familiar with the industry. I know I'm out of my league with most of the content posted here.

https://xkcd.com/1053/

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by quantified on Friday March 05, 2021 @12:09AM (#26352982)
Thanks for the xkcd link!
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by loopz on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:18PM (#26348485)
They for sure don't work on solving the climate crisis. That's unprofitable.

Wall Street gobbled up most ph.D's and researchers years ago, but marketing/ads space have a stranglehold on much of it nowadays.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by ummonk on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:14PM (#26349197)
FANG pay is usually hundreds of thousands not millions, but most data scientists at these companies are working to optimize user engagement.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by ceejayoz on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:51PM (#26349628)
They spend millions on multiple scientists, not per-head.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by _greim_ on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:07PM (#26349107)
> the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see

To this list I'd add the concept of epistemic hygiene. Just as crowding together in metropolises re-wired our culture to value hygiene, these informational metropolises of social media will eventually cause us to greatly value epistemic hygiene. Seeing a rage-inducing headline would then evoke a kind of "ew..." response. At least, this is what I hope will happen. Maybe it will require a generational turnover.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by Nextgrid on Thursday March 04, 2021 @03:30PM (#26347843)
It's less about screen-time or self-control and more about toxic, malicious software used for communication.

A lot of the calls-to-action used to generate "engagement" are the same calls to action used for legitimate communications, and the only way to tell is to "engage" with the product.

There's nothing wrong with people opening their social media app if they receive a real message from a friend. The problem is when the platform is incentivized to "manufacture" messages even when there aren't any.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by loveistheanswer on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:21PM (#26348536)
>I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education

Not at all; its more like breaking up with a toxic, manipulative, dishonest partner. There's many more fish in the sea and there's many more ways to heathily socialize than just Facebook. Though I suppose people in abusive relationships often have a sort of Stockholm syndrome where they see no alternatives.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by Barrin92 on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:14PM (#26349193)
not only do people in abusive relationships often have stockholm syndrome, many people are actually materially dependent on their partner, for example women who have stayed home a long time historically but also still today, and thus they literally cannot leave. Or they have children, or leaving might put others at risk.

Point of working through the analogy being, even on an individual basis framing leaving a relationship as some sort of arbitrary choice is kind of nonsensical, in particular if there is a power imbalance between the people in the relationship, to the point where staying in an abusive relationship might be a 'rational choice'.

Which is actually why we've created very elaborate laws and customs surrounding marriage rather than telling everyone "well if you don't like it just leave".

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by parkersweb on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:30PM (#26349386)
It’s off-topic - but I found this BBC podcast on the simplification of using Stockholm syndrome as an explanation fascinating:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000s7n1

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by AnthonyMouse on Thursday March 04, 2021 @06:22PM (#26349941)
This is why we need to promote the existence of more and better alternatives. Because "if you don't like it, leave" doesn't work if there is nowhere else to go. But if there is, it does.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by loveistheanswer on Thursday March 04, 2021 @07:38PM (#26350745)
Perhaps we need a publicly funded, rather than corporate advertising funded social platform?
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by AnthonyMouse on Saturday March 06, 2021 @10:40PM (#26372932)
Or public funding for development of federated protocols and free software implementations.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by loveistheanswer on Friday March 05, 2021 @12:50PM (#26359668)
>they literally cannot leave. Or they have children, or leaving might put others at risk.

>Point of working through the analogy being, even on an individual basis framing leaving a relationship as some sort of arbitrary choice is kind of nonsensical

Could you give some common examples where an individual "literally cannot leave" FB, or where leaving FB would put others at risk?

The best example I could think of is a small business owner losing potential money from taking their business page off FB.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by Barrin92 on Friday March 05, 2021 @03:10PM (#26361422)
I can give you a few direct examples. I live in a condo. Our entire building management runs through a facebook group. My girlfriend works with kids whose schooling right now is managed through whatsapp. I know quite a lot of people who are required by their employer to maintain a facebook presence because that's how they get into contact with a lot of clients. For a lot of folks FB and affiliates have become part of the basic digital infrastructure.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by loveistheanswer on Friday March 05, 2021 @03:21PM (#26361549)
Thank you for the thought provoking responses.

>I know quite a lot of people who are required by their employer to maintain a facebook presence because that's how they get into contact with a lot of clients.

Being compelled to mix business with personal life like this seems quite objectionable indeed.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by watwut on Friday March 05, 2021 @04:11AM (#26354683)
The term is trauma bonding for psychological attachment in abusive situation. Stockholm syndrome is something else.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by jillianschuller on Thursday March 04, 2021 @06:15PM (#26349860)
> We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see. We also need to encourage people to take control of their feeds, muting users and topics who draw them into unproductive discussions.

This is going to make a world of difference the first time people try it. I started monitoring screen time/configuring notifications about a year ago, and made me feel a lot better about the time I spent on my phone.

But, all of this assumes that social media should (and will) stay the same as it currently is with addictive never ending feeds and endless notifications.

At the end of last year I sat down thought of what social media could look like if it was designed to be used less, and in a way that would add value to people.

For me, that looked like intentional written reflections, shared with a small circle of close friends and family. To keep me from scrolling, there would be no feed. To keep me from checking my phone, content would rarely be surfaced.

This ended up becoming Sundayy, a mindful social network that you can only check once a week (on Sunday): https://www.sundayy.app

Each day you're prompted to slow down and reflect, but there is no feed of reflections. They're all kept secret, for now. At the end of the week, on Sunday, reflections are revealed. It's a more intimate insight into how people close to you lived their week - day by day and in their own words.

We should definitely bring more awareness to monitoring screen time and curating feeds, but we should also question whether we should have to do any of that at all :)

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by xg15 on Friday March 05, 2021 @04:20AM (#26354756)
Sorry, but this reminds me a bit of the "now they are 15 standards" quote.

While well-intentioned, I think it's likely people will simply be checking Sunday and Facebook.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by jillianschuller on Friday March 05, 2021 @10:45AM (#26358094)
Yeah look, they probably will be, at the start. It's tough to move away from FB, especially when it's designed to keep you there.

When I deleted FB from my phone, I looked around, and there really wasn't any alternative social media platform that didn't have the same setup - ads, feeds, notifications.

I really just wanted to put an alternative out there, so people could find something else if they're in my situation.

Sundayy isn't just challenging FB, but it's challenging the unconscious association between "social media" and "endless feeds", "ad revenue model", and "hijacking notifications".

I long for a day when social media isn't rooted in any of those things.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by mumblemumble on Thursday March 04, 2021 @03:28PM (#26347817)
> The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ourselves.

If it's done well, it should have the opposite effect. Describing all the ways that companies are trying to get you addicted will help inoculate people against their tricks. In order to psychologically defend yourself, you first need to understand exactly what you're defending yourself against.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by AdmiralGinge on Thursday March 04, 2021 @03:30PM (#26347837)
>We have to start reminding people that they are in control of their decisions, and that they can take steps to reduce their social media usage to healthy levels. I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see.

I couldn't agree more, and to add to that I think it's usually a foolish approach to treat people as hapless automatons without any agency if you're trying to convince them that your point is worth listening to. If you look at two of the worst political failures in the UK recently (the Remain campaign for the Brexit referendum in 2016 and Labour's election campaign in 2019), I think what they have in common is that they essentially told people "you're a downtrodden proletariat buffeted about by forces well outside your control, but we can make things better for you" which is such a foolish approach in my opinion. Regardless of whether they actually do or not, the average person likes to think they're in control of their own destiny so blaming everything on Facebook being manipulative bastards will never work if your aim is to change the public's relationship with social media.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by PontifexMinimus on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:33PM (#26349427)
> they essentially told people "you're a downtrodden proletariat buffeted about by forces well outside your control

That's the plain and simple truth, isn't it? I mean, I don't control facebook.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by AdmiralGinge on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:40PM (#26349499)
Yeah it might be true, but it's extremely counterproductive to point this out when you're trying to convince someone of something. People like to feel like they have agency, even if it's mostly an illusion.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by PontifexMinimus on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:46PM (#26349572)
People also don't like to be lied to, and most people are well aware they don't control Facebook.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by legerdemain on Thursday March 04, 2021 @03:40PM (#26347954)
I agree! The economic effects of Brexit are difficult or impossible to measure, so they're not worth worrying about. On the whole, Brexit was good for British people because it gave them a feeling of action and momentum, like they had a real "hand in history." Britain has never been as energized and optimistic as it has been post-Brexit.

In the same way, I bristle at the suggestion that I'm not rational enough to resist the "addiction" of push messaging. We all know what the word "addiction" actually means. This is not addiction, this is just hokey phooey using fake-medical language to push a liberal agenda of extra regulation.

Every time I get a notification from Twitter or Facebook, my day gets a little brighter. When LinkedIn tells me that someone is looking at my profile, that means someone cares, and that's a wonderful thing to know.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by SpicyLemonZest on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:08PM (#26348337)
Your experience is far from universal. Twitter has made my life measurably worse: I'm less happy, have less free time, react less charitably to people I disagree with. I can look through my comment history and identify the periods where I was most active on Twitter, because I'm constantly flying off the handle at people for no good reason.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by legerdemain on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:18PM (#26348484)
Would you call yourself helplessly "addicted" to Twitter? If not, then you disagree with the premise of TFA.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by SpicyLemonZest on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:23PM (#26348561)
I would. Every morning, I wake up saying I'm going to log off Twitter for the day as soon as my coffee's done, and most days I end up logging multiple hours of Twitter time.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by WesolyKubeczek on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:54PM (#26349668)
What helped me was actually deleting my account and after that, not feeling like creating a new one.

I still peruse feeds of some people I used to follow, but now, instead of doing it compulsively every hour or whenever I need my dopamine, I do it once a month or so, if I don’t forget. I don’t have them bookmarked, so I also enter the full URLs.

And if Twitter says I need to log in to read more of a thread, or whatever, too bad. I don’t have that thingy that you use to log in to Twitter.

Now, Facebook is a different story since they offer a very walled garden. You cannot even read most of the stuff unless you log in, by default. Trouble is, there are people on it I interact with. As it happens with some of those people, Facebook is the only way to reach them.

And another thing is Hackernews, of course.

See, those are places where stuff happens. You go there, scroll to what interests you, engage in a discussion, and it almost feels like meeting people again, especially in a pandemic world.

Or I just want to feed my brain with new stuff to get that sweet dopamine.

I think that what could change this addiction could be entraining the brain to release dopamine as a reward for engaging into more immersive, time-consuming activities. Like reading more of the long form, deep articles or books. Watching a 2 hour movie instead of 15 minute usual youtube fodder. Get that side project to a usable state (starts crying).

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by legerdemain on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:26PM (#26349333)
I see. I wish you success in breaking your addiction. A number of support tools are available!
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by ckosidows on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:11PM (#26348376)
This is all just personal anecdote. It might be wrong for you; maybe it doesn't apply to everyone, but it has worked for me...

The options seem to be: 1) Delete your social media account 2) Set up timers (OS-level, account-level, etc) 3) Filter you feed to only the people who matter

The first two options didn't work for me. I created a new account and deleted the timers. The first option left me feeling excluded. The second option just turned SM into a drip-feed, making me check whenever the timer was up. If they work for you, great!

The option that worked was to filter facebook and snapchat to only show people who personally mattered to me in the physical world. I only see things about people I come into contact with and care about. I know them well enough to know the whole story rather than just what they post at face value. Their posts can encourage conversations rather than make me feel bad about some cool thing I'll never do or know more about.

Social media is a tool which, used effectively, can benefit you. But used ineffectively it can harm you. I hope schools of the future or some people/institution teach effective social media use. Or hopefully we can enforce social media companies to follow some regulations regarding user wellbeing.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by rapind on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:02PM (#26348278)
We’re just witnessing advertising’s race to the bottom. Eventually everything published is questioned because all forms of media are incentivized to push drivel for eyeballs.

The optimist in me see’s how ridiculous and blatant the drivel is becoming and suspects we’ll achieve some sort of collective enlightenment before we extinct ourselves. A smarter media then emerges (timing is everything here) eschewing advertising dollars in favour of a more consumer friendly model.

Then again, I’m probably being naive.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by ceh123 on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:47PM (#26349588)
Paid services to align interests with the user (best user experience wins) are the way to go and I really hope they win out in the long run. I also think individual driven filters and algorithms are the way to go. In my experience, heavily AI/ML driven algorithms for user experience (think spotify suggestions) lead to overfitting super quickly. ML assistance can be amazing (obviously), but I know I want some degree of manual control on my algorithms.

Another plug[0] but, I'm hoping to be a part of this solution. Just a personal project right now, but I'm building a search website whose end goal is to be ad-free (paid) and let users create filters to remove any of the countless trash websites that SEO their way to the top of google.

Currently I've just got it working for web search and a few filters I've created for myself (removes a ton of websites I never find value in, some blogs, news sites, pinterest, etc.)

[0] https://hadal.io

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by PontifexMinimus on Thursday March 04, 2021 @10:14PM (#26352132)
> Paid services to align interests with the user (best user experience wins) are the way to go

I agree; aligning interests is important.

> I really hope they win out in the long run

It's hard for me to see how they can. Advertising supported services are free to the user, which improves take-up which means that network effects are in their favour.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by ceh123 on Friday March 05, 2021 @11:56AM (#26359031)
Hope they can and believe they will are definitely not the same in this case. I do hope we get some great competition for paid alternatives in all sorts of categories, but I agree that it's a long shot for these types of services to win in most markets.

Ad supported free services will (unfortunately) always dominate network effect driven spaces.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:54PM (#26348960)
>We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see.

We are so outgunned it's almost ridiculous to try. The game is rigged.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by antwerpz on Friday March 05, 2021 @06:06AM (#26355458)
Abstinence-only education fails for sex, because a) sex is a built-in human drive b) sex is beneficial in lots of ways, and c) there are lots of ways to have sex safely.

Abstinence as a strategy is not in and of itself flawed. The way lots of people cope with the dangers of heroin is simply by never trying it their whole life. Lots of addicts adopt a strategy of permanent abstinence, forever.

Some things are very harmful. I don't think we all need to try all to them, just to make sure.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by matwood on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:25PM (#26349329)
> We have to start reminding people that they are in control of their decisions

Exactly. I not a big FB user, but last year I was on a lot more than normal b/c I was home. Then one day I realized I was just either arguing with family or reading things that left me disappointed, and wondered why am I subjecting myself to this? I didn't delete my account because I still use messenger to communicate to a few people, but I haven't been on FB proper for months.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by AndrewUnmuted on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:29PM (#26349381)
> I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see.

Isn't this also denying people their individual agency, though? Using Facebook is not like sex is for teens, who are faced with the rather unavoidable biological realities of puberty. There are many ways to achieve the things people seek from Facebook, some technological and some not.

We don't need to start under the assumption that people will not be able to commit to having more healthy media consumption habits. These tools offered by Apple, Facebook and Google you mention are not things we should be encouraging. If these companies had the user's best interests at heart, their products would not need these kinds of sub-features in the first place. But when you study the gambling and nicotine industries to figure out how to better hook your users to your mobile apps, you didn't start out from the right place. So I would reckon the answer to that would be to abstain from the product entirely.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by scsilver on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:31PM (#26349391)
I think our built environment and lack of engaging community is the main reason we are disadvantaged against self control. We need trust and support of others, we need it daily, and we dont get enough of it to make significant progress against many addictions. A change in our built environment is a start to improving our connections to our local community, and subsequently continued accountability when facing addictive influences.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by santoshalper on Thursday March 04, 2021 @03:55PM (#26348153)
It's shockingly easy to delete Facebook. I haven't used it in years, and it almost never comes up. They have done a masterful job of making you feel like you cannot live without them through the careful application of dark patterns, but I assure you that not only do you not need it, but once gone, you also will not miss it.

Seriously, give it a try. Shockingly easy.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by reaperducer on Thursday March 04, 2021 @03:31PM (#26347845)
We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see

I have my home router configured to not allow any social media-capable devices to connect on Sundays.

After a few weeks, the FOMO cycle is broken and you realize that there's more to life than scrolling.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by robterrell on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:58PM (#26348996)
Can you share your blocklist, please?
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by reaperducer on Thursday March 04, 2021 @08:45PM (#26351383)
It's device based. Anything with a web browser or an App Store.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by xg15 on Friday March 05, 2021 @04:23AM (#26354783)
> I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see. We also need to encourage people to take control of their feeds, muting users and topics who draw them into unproductive discussions.

Those tools are provided by exactly the same companies that were manufacturing the addiction in the first. The tools can be revoked or changed the second they show signs of actually being effective.

Sorry, but this is like asking your drug dealer to help you with becoming clean.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by ummonk on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:12PM (#26349171)
I'm not sure empowering users in this way would be all that effective. It would be like trying to empower people to avoid opioid addiction. It's hard to set and stick to limits on something that is designed to addict you.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by heterodoxxed on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:51PM (#26349631)
| the less sense of individual agency we give ourselves

In aggregate, the population is at the mercy of material forces. Turning a social problem into an individual moral failing has never managed to solve anything at scale.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by cgriswald on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:40PM (#26349501)
Apps and websites often don’t honor their own configuration choices. They use loose definitions to slide in advertisements or other unwanted information. They do not give you the granularity to decide what types of information you actually want. They also change them after you’ve taken the time to get it sort of working for you.

You’re not going to give people agency by having them press a button provided by someone else. The button doesn’t really do anything. “Cold turkey” is really the only solution to these mind games.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by PontifexMinimus on Thursday March 04, 2021 @10:10PM (#26352102)
This is a good point. Feeds should be available in well-defined programmatic formats (such as RSS or ActivityPub) so that they can be processed outside the domain of the app whose data carries them; if necessary this should be enforced by law. This would make it a lot easier for users to consume those feeds in ways that they control, and not that Big Tech controls.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by amelius on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:20PM (#26348509)
Perhaps a solution is that we separate the delivery of social media posts from the company that produces them. (Just like email can be received in a client that is not run by e.g. companies that send spam).

This means that we can teach our Social Media Inbox (abbreviated here SMI) that we don't like certain messages, and the SMI will remove them from the feed.

The trick here is that the SMI has its incentives aligned with the user, not the social media companies. So there is no incentive to make us addicted.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by itsjustmath on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:05PM (#26348301)
Humane tech has an informative page detailing how to “take control”: https://www.humanetech.com/take-control
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by swiley on Friday March 05, 2021 @08:20AM (#26356529)
Why though? I left facebook and lost nothing. It brought no value to my life and even if it did I'm certain the feed itself wouldn't.
Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by PontifexMinimus on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:14PM (#26349194)
> battling this problem is going to require more than simply shaming them in Medium posts. We have to start reminding people that they are in control of their decisions, and that they can take steps to reduce their social media usage to healthy levels.

Yes, but that's only going to have a small effect, at best. Just like you can't solve the obesity crisis by telling people to eat less.

Things are getting more addictive (http://www.paulgraham.com/addiction.html) because companies under technology and capitalism form weak superintelligencies that are capable of building things that are increasingly addictive. So asking people to use willpower to overcome that is going to increasingly fail.

I think the only thing that could succeed is government intervention.

> I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!"

If FB and other social media providers were required to federate using ActivityPub, then people would be able to delete FB and still have access to their friends and contacts on it.

> We also need to encourage people to take control of their feeds, muting users and topics who draw them into unproductive discussions.

With ActivityPub it would be a lot easier to build applications that allow them to control and curate their feeds for themselves. The user is back in control.

Re:“User engagement” is code for “addiction” by tacocataco on Thursday March 04, 2021 @07:25PM (#26350588)
Adam Curtis's century of the self is a good (but long) documentary on the advances in psychology and it's merger with advertising/politics. Worth a watch IMO.