* The (largely mental) hyperactivity is controllable, that is, I retain my creative ideas generation and interest in new things, but I am no longer governed by it, and
* The rarely discussed hyperfocus behaviour (which I frankly regard as a superpower) is more easily snapped out of.
To the uninformed, the most paradoxical outcome is that I can take a powerful stimulant medication, lie down in bed, and fall asleep easily, when normally I'd be staring at the ceiling pondering anything from CSS to soldering and unable to sleep for the rush of ideas.
This response to medication is not diagnostic, but it is indicative that the medication I have is correct. Moreover it allows me to both retain the two traits that have made me a successful systems maker, but permits a less chaotic engagement with the neurotypical-oriented processes of modern human society, so for example I renew my passport before it expires.
I self-medicated with a variety of over-the-counter substances for decades, including nicotine, sugar, and coffee. I am super grateful for the medication since I have now dropped the nicotine and sugar.
My psychiatrist believes the condition is a) misnamed, and would be better titled "Attention Difference Disorder", and b) points out that the twin traits of rapid ideas switching and hyperfocus are only a problem in some aspects of engagement with modern society and that in an pre-agrarian society they'd be excellent traits for a hunter.
As a person who is in their 1st week of medication, that is a HUGE relief. Thank you.
I have a lot more to comment here but have a quiz (engineering undergrad) to do rn..lol. But I gotta say your description of you experience is the most comprehensive thing I was ever able to relate to. I found a lot of people on r/ADHD articulating individual feelings/experiences that I felt but was not able to talk about, but yours just covered a lot more base with me personally.
> anything from CSS to soldering and unable to sleep for the rush of ideas.
That hit hard XD.
> would be better titled "Attention Difference Disorder"
Yes, a lot of people are don't like that it was named mostly based on the symptoms most annoying to the people around the person ADHD with. Many people suggest something along the lines of "Executive Function Dysregulation" to remove the "hyper" part that many people don't suffer from and include emotional-dysregulation in the symptoms.
Ok enough. time to go.
1. Never take stimulants to have fun, just take them to do tasks to progress your life. ADHD doesn't prevent you from having fun, and having fun with stimulants is what makes them addictive.
2. Take regular breaks from the medication. You wont get much done the first day or two after, so don't plan on doing anything except stay at home and procrastinate those days since your inattentive symptoms will be worse than usual.
3. Sometimes try to do tasks without medication. Having worse focus helps in some way since it means you must master a topic much more before you can complete the task. My guess is that many of the PRO's of ADHD comes from this, since it means instead of just completing a task and moving on you have been forced to master the subject way more than other people with similar grades/achievements. Think of two people with similar grades, one worked hard and did lots of practice problems while the other was lazy and never worked. Who do you think understands things better? What do you think happens if the lazy guy suddenly puts in the effort? That is what happens with ADHD medication.
I like that though, just chilling for a day or two, do what you feel like and not what feels important. If your life doesn't give you the opportunity to do that I'd suggest try to get more flexibility, you don't need to be super attentive and productive every day. ADHD isn't a disease, it just means you are badly adapted for modern office work and bureaucracy, and having vacations where you can go back to your simple carefree self is very valuable.
Edit: For example, when I was a kid I spent most of my time at home playing with toys during weekends. I don't see why that would be a bad life for a kid. When they get older to 8-10 they can get around on their own so no need to baby sit them any longer, at least if you live in an European city.
As for parenthood its not just about bringing your kids places. They want to play, they need to eat, they need diaper changes. Kids are a ton of work I love every minute of it, but man is it difficult.
“Playtime” is a tool used to prepare the child for the next lesson.
Even non-ADHD people should be doing that. I rarely take medication on the weekends and if I do, it is strictly only one day.
The other day I allow my brain to do whatever it wants; play video games, lay in bed, work, it's free to tell me what to do. It's relaxing.
"Medicine holidays." They're a necessary part of ADHD treatment to deal with tolerance and to ensure you still need the medication at your current dose. After you take a few days off (I do one weekend a month and one week a year) try taking a smaller dose.
Everyone's tolerance and needs can change drastically over time. If you stay at the same dose forever without breaks you'll have no concept of if the medication is still working for you - much like your 3rd point. I took 40mg/day in my 20s, down to 30mg a year ago, and now up to 35mg/day in covid times.
As others have said, this is definitely something you must discuss with your personal brain care specialist first.
What others have not suggested, and again this is something I have been able to arrange in conjunction with my shrink, is medication switching. Since each has slightly different benefits, I use a different medication on a workday than at the weekend or holiday/social time.
In this regard I've been fortunate to have access to a healthcare system, and specialists, that respect the individual and aren't reflexively invoking a) cookie-cutter solutions, or b) contrived histrionics about substances with abuse potential. The only raised eyebrow came from my pharmacist: "You're on both of these?" "Yes, but on different days, not together." "No worries".
NB: I'm hesitant to specify which medications, because individual responses vary dramatically, and advice gleaned from one person's experience may be exactly wrong for another.
On the other hand, you may forget to take your medication, that can really be a problem. The rule of thumb is, if you forgot if you took it, it's because you forgot to take it.
What's more, holidays from either (inadvertent or otherwise) have not provoke the catastrophic withdrawal sometimes described, for me it's more of a reversion to type.
And at the risk of labouring the point, this all comes with a whopping YMMV notice. In particular, I am not reliant on self-assessment; I am privileged enough to have access to both psychiatric and familial help that is willing, able, and qualified, to provide external observation.
I can't and won't speak to your experience or your medical advice, but from my experience this is advice I would strongly advise considering your own experience before taking. My experience is that if I miss a dose I'll find myself, hours later, with my brain catastrophically grinding gears and in tears from a panic attack. This isn't from addiction, this is because I've actually adjusted to having a brain chemistry that isn't broken. I was just as much a wreck before I was medicated, I just didn't know and had a lot of really unhealthy self-medication techniques.
I'm well near the highest dose on my medication (Vyvanse) and I still have many of the pros and cons of ADHD. I don't need to play chicken with my brain chemicals to exercise the unique heaven and hell that's in there.
I'm not sure this is universally necessary. When my pre-adolescent son forgets to take his medication in the morning it's immediately obvious, so it's clearly still having pronounced effect. He's been on the same dosage of the medication continuously for five years.
I was hesitant to take any medication. I was concerned it would make me anxious or similar.
Instead, my anxiety was greatly reduced. I had the thought, “is this what normal should feel like?” I don’t like the idea of being dependent on any one tool, but I’ll use a tool if it helps.
I've seen this a lot.
A lot of parents were in complete denial about their children having ADHD, and the rampant diagnosing of ADHD at a point in time. Turns out a lot of children actually had it, and it is not the most compatible with the environment they are in and will be in.
All things did happen: rampant diagnosis, misdiagnosis, and parents in denials. But none of that means any particular child didn't have ADHD.
I've brought this reality up to other parents repeating the same things.
this. all of this. yes. :)
I'm an extremely light sleeper and always had a very hard time falling asleep, so my guess is that concerta quiets down my brain enough that the chronic lack of sleep catches up on me.
It doesn't make me any more awake/less tired than I normally would be, and I can lie down and kind of zone out, but I never completely drift off. Pseudo-meditation is the closest I can get to sleeping when I'm on Concerta.
Otherwise though, it checks all the usual boxes - way easier to sit still and be quiet, way easier to do the thing I intended to do when I sat down to do it, way easier to get in and out of focus. Also improved my sleep schedule a surprising amount - between it and melatonin, I've moved from 6am-3pm to ~12am-8:30am, which is wildly outside any of the expectations I've seen set for pharmaceutical remedies, and puts me firmly in 'able to hold a normal adult job without killing yourself through sleep deprevation' territory.
Honestly almost annoying it has such a positive effect since the practical difference between that and addiction are pretty minimal on a short-term basis. I'm deeply uncomfortable with the idea of having to go without it or something filling the same brain-holes for a long period of time precisely because I'm basically worthless without it, in a way I didn't really come to appreciate until after starting medication.
I've always assumed that this is the "right" response?
When people talk about stimulant medication and ADHD, the reactions tend to fall into two categories: Hypes you up, stimulates you, makes you talk fast and move fast, etc... Or calms you down, soothes you, allows you to think clearly, methodically, etc....
I bring this up because it's concerning to me that the "right" response is setting off "never abuse this" alarms. Is it the right response, or is it not?
Personally, I get that same sense of calm and wellbeing. It's why the drug works. My mind quiets down, my ability to hold attention increases dramatically, and my sense of well being ensues. I speak slower and calmer. I am less likely to argue with my spouse. Yes, I feel "good" but I've always assumed that's what its like to feel normal. Normal people get their prefrontal cortex for free, mine is unlocked through a drug.
I’ve always assumed that because I receive a sense of calm, well being, and presence of mind that I must actually be ADHD since everyone else takes these meds and bounces off the walls.
Now I’m thinking maybe that isn’t true, and maybe I’ve rationalized taking meds because it’s easier than forcing myself to sit for hours and get quality work done. Uhg.
> Stimulant drugs do improve the ability (even without ADHD) to focus and pay attention. One function, which is reliably improved by stimulant medications, is sustained attention, or vigilance. Stimulants improve sustained, focused attention, but “selective attention” and “distractibility” may be worsened, possibly because of a drug induced increase in impulsivity. [1]
I currently take a small dose (5mg) of Evekeo with only very mild side effects. On 30mg of Adderall XR I felt some euphoria for the first two weeks and the insomnia was pretty bad for the first week or so.
Then why do you think stimulant medications were ever approved for adhd treatment?
Of course they were work differently for people with and without adhd. For people without adhd the stimulant medications do not treat the adhd. If you try to sort of isolate out that part of it... what are you expecting to find?
Stimulants will help anyone focus, ADHD diagnosis or not.
To refocus the conversation, the specific trope I see again and again is “stimulants will make a person with ADHD calm and a person without ADHD hyper”, which I do not believe is true. If there’s a paper that provides evidence for that I’d still love to see it.
Neither is such a statement made on the product labels.
I have seen such absolute statements along such lines made in the popular press and their online equivalent, but I'd rather leave toilet paper out of the discussion.
So by all means, do not believe the statement is true, but understand that there is, in fact, no broad acceptance or community belief of such an absolute statement being true, and furthermore, rather crucially, that what you may believe has no bearing whatsoever on the veracity of individual experiences.
Consequently, even the anecdotal reports have continuing clinical relevance, because:
* Medicine is the field of treating a patient, and if the result is a better adjusted, rested, and socially engaged individual, then any such observed effect for the individual patient calls for psychiatric consideration. What such effects are not, is diagnostic, or the basis for a product claim; and,
* Science is the field of explaining phenomena, and the reports are not adequately explained by the research, in large part because the wide gamut of behaviours, symptoms, mechanisms, measures, and outcomes collectively labelled "ADHD" are themselves a very poorly explained and haphazardly classified selection of neurological variations from the population majority. This being, of course, a very common circumstance in the young field of psychiatry.
All of which means there is no such paper, and besides, no-one is even writing one.
> specific trope I see again and again is “stimulants will make a person with ADHD calm and a person without ADHD hyper”, which I do not believe is true This statement is compacted and leaves out some things. I have a bad case of the inattentive adhd variant. With that came that I am really bad at filtering out sensory stimuli of any kind, sound, light, touch. They feel "loud" and prevent me from focusing for example on a conversation with a person. However stimulants increase my ability to tune out these distractions. For me stimulations were such a relieve after over 35 years to not be bombarded with sensory stimuli and finally being able to quieten this noisy mess, that made me a lot calmer - even when I am pausing medication for a few days. So believe what you want, me and others who take the medication are glad for the relieve it provides. However many websites use tropes you mentioned in a way that makes ADHD seem not very credible. It is important to differentiate between medical facts and for example websites that try to make people seek treatment by a healthcare professional. With such deseases often come secondary psychological problems that may cause a suffering person not to seek treatment. So some websites try to break through this barrier.
I'm sorry but you clearly haven't even tried to research the subject, so I'm not surprised you don't believe it. People with ADHD have been scientifically proven to have deficiencies in specific neurotransmitters, namely norepinephrine and dopamine. There's multiple studies on ADHD and reward pathways you could find with a simple google search.
If you understand how amphetamine based stimulants such as adderall work, you'll know these are 2 of the major neurotransmitters that they target along with serotonin.
The entire reason for using these types of medications is to improve availability of neurotransmitters to those with abnormal production that impedes cognitive function. Sure people with normal levels can take stimulants and see effects, since these drugs don't balance levels, they just increase them. In a person with normal dopamine production it's just going to lead to an imbalance, and result in the euphoria feeling they're seeking, whether they want to admit it or not.
Edit: the article you posted doesn't even support your argument. It seems in people without ADHD, the medication resulted in increased impulsivity and distractibility.Most likely as a result of abnormal levels of norepinephrine. This is evidence of the drug having literally the opposite of it's intended effect when taken by people without ADHD.
This is another passage from the same paper:
> As it remains unclear whether stimulant medication has the same effect on healthy individuals as for those with ADHD, it is possible that many reported effects of prescription stimulants in healthy individuals may stem from placebo effects.
If you have a citation that argues that stimulants affect people with and without ADHD differently I’d love to read it.
Here's my anecdote which runs quite opposite yours: As another person with ADHD who has been prescribed a low dose of Adderall XR in the past, it's always been an unpleasant experience for me, to the extent that the prescription bottle said "as needed for academic work". It did help me focus for a few hours, although whether I focused on the important things or distractions was up to my non-medicinal coping strategies among other factors. Unfortunately, disruptive and uncomfortable side effects lasted far longer than the period of improved focus.
Nothing I just described matches my understanding of how neurotypical people enjoy Adderall as a recreational drug.I don't think I've ever once in my life actually wanted to take it or enjoyed the experience, not even on those occasions where I chose to take it (the last of which was almost a decade ago) because of the beneficial effects it was prescribed for.
I believed the idea of imbalanced neurotransmitters readily, as you hear it from authoritative-sounding sources, until some reading made it clear that not only is it not true, that most serious practitioners know it is not true. I remember a talk by the author of "Mad in America" (obviously not an unbiased source) saying that when he discussed this with practitioners they said "of course we know the chemical imbalance hypothesis is not correct" and he said "well you forgot to tell the American public"... That really stuck with me.
Off topic to your comment, but germane to the thread: I keep wrestling with this, but as I move beyond just reading abstracts and summaries of the research, I have to question the idea that ADHD is easily explainable, has any single cause, or is even manageable long term with stimulants [1][2][others, but I am still reading the literature]. I am still trying to answer questions I thought were clear: Does ADHD exist in a meaningful way[3]? If so do stimulants treat it long term [4]? If so at what cost[5]? I thought these were settled questions but the more I read the less convinced I become (I know there are many studies showing different results or debating the results of studies I have linked)... I just put these thoughts out there for anyone on a similar journey. Not to undermine anyone's personal experience; I tried many meds, some helped significantly but side effects ultimately made me stop, I do not doubt people have these symptoms (I do) and that medications have an effect. Good luck to you all! I appreciate reading everyone's input.
[1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5510202/ [2]https://ww2.health.wa.gov.au/-/media/Files/Corporate/Reports... [3]https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.c547 [4]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19318991/ [5]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2670101/
The idea that the drugs "cure" or "treat" is just a social construct to justify their usage.
From first hand experience, it doesn't take much to get an ADHD diagnosis, as long as you seem credible and not drug seeking. I could ask my psychiatrist for practically any drug I wanted. It does not seem like a viable long term solution for me.
> evidence that for non-ADHD adults, taking ADHD medication in doses that it would have been prescribed, does something significantly different than it does to adults with ADHD
I was asking after.
> People with ADHD have been scientifically proven to have deficiencies in specific neurotransmitters, namely norepinephrine and dopamine
Please cite your specific evidence, and make sure it is not studies that do not replicate.
Only if you're not used to it there is this "bouncing off the fucking walls" effect. But it goes away if you know this effect already.
Than amphetamines can increase focus, and make you chill instead of hyper-active. That's why people take it to study for example actually.
After a few days of continual use only the increased focus effect stays. But it doesn't have almost any effect on one's mood any more. Actually it can even cause a significant drop in mood.
Still it's addictive. Like tee or coffee, which won't make you feel full of energy any more when your addicted, it just becomes a necessity to "function". You can show all physical symptoms of "being sky-high on speed" like pupil dilation and such, but just go to sleep for example.
I don't question that the effects of stimulants like amphetamines may help overcome some medical conditions, only that I don't think that the effects are much different in otherwise healthy individuals.
Stimulants help everyone focus, it’s why people drink coffee.
Everyone would perform better on a low dose Ritalin. I think people just rationalize a special need for them. Erdos famously took amphetamines.
I’d buy people have variable baselines, but I think everyone would benefit from stimulants if they could take them.
Many prescribers will also start patients on very low doses and titration up to minimize the distraction of the euphoric effects.
Unfortunately, many mew ADHD patients mistake the initial euphoric effects for the medication “working” and get frustrated when the effects go away. They start chasing bigger prescriptions, shopping around for prescribers willing to give higher doses, doubling up doses and so on.
Everyone going into stimulant treatment should know that excessive stimulant dosing can worsen focus. If you’ve ever seen someone abusing stimulants, you’ll know exactly what this means. People on too high of a dose tend to be overly energetic, or overly focused on the wrong things.
Ideally, you want to be on the lowest dose you can get away with. Contrary to what is often repeated online, it’s best to take the medication continuously rather than skipping days. The medication should blend into the background while you work on improving ADHD. Don’t fall into the trap of leaning on the stimulant to solve everything for you.
I don't like being on stimulants though. When I'm on stimulants I can't just let my thoughts wander and do whatever feels right at the moment, and I really like that part. If I don't have work to do I greatly prefer not being on them.
The only time I feel the need to abuse them is when I am over burdened with work and I feel I need the extra focus to complete tasks. At those times I try to do the opposite, quit taking the medicine and calm down and tell people that I don't have time to do the tasks now.
> I don't like being on stimulants though.
It's very possible that you're on too high of a dose, or that you'd do better on an alternative medication. There are at least 4 different classes of ADHD medication, 2 of which aren't traditional stimulants. Guanfacine is remarkably effective, for example, but it's nowhere near as popular because it's much less enjoyable than stimulants during the ramp-up phase.
> The only time I feel the need to abuse them
Yikes. If you ever find yourself feeling the "need to abuse" a medication, I strongly recommend you keep an eye on those tendencies. That's the kind of warning sign than can spiral into addiction if you ever find yourself burdened by some unfortunate life circumstances (the trigger).
I don't abuse them though. Its just a thought in my head that pops up that I quickly dismiss.
> The real problem is the people who associate taking the pill with getting work done, to the point that they forget how to accomplish anything without first reaching for the medication.
Well, I couldn't accomplish anything before taking the pill. I didn't forget, I just couldn't get anything done ever. I learn stuff ridiculously fast though so I had no problems passing exams, but anything which required effort and focus like doing homework was never possible. Basically I was the best in class at exams and the worst in class at homework, to the point it prevented me from graduating. And as we know a job is more like doing homework than exam, so I never could do the things needed at a job.
Helps focus. Zero boost to energy.
It’s kind of like when it’s really late at night and your mind quiets and you get into the zone for a couple hours.
Factor 5 leiden, so different then most people.
It’s kind of between a TIA and a full stroke. I used to Get TIAs a lot, but ignored them as they lasted under 30 seconds. Now they are much worse.
Blood thinner mostly Prevent. Side effects can be brutal though. I seem to have permanently lost ability to write by hand. Thankfully typing is mostly intact.
Anything that acts as Vascular constrictors is seriously off limits for me.
> dosage should not make you feel "high" -- if anything it's almost the opposite
Even when I was young and fit, many years before I started taking any meds, my blood pressure and pulse rate were consistently on the high side. I've always had what could be called somewhat of a 'jittery' or 'high strung' personality.
In my 30s, I started taking a low dose of Ritalin, and it made a hell of a difference. For the first time in my life, I was actually, fundamentally calm. I gathered some pretty detailed data over a pretty long period of time, and there was an iron-clad correlation: when the Ritalin was in my blood stream, my blood pressure and heart rate were lower.
> most ADHD people develop tolerance to medication over long periods of time
From the beginning, in order to defend against this possibility, I always took the meds sparingly, only on work days, and not all of them. For a number of years, I organized my schedule around taking the meds three days a week. On those three days, I did most of my deeper, focused software development. On the other work days, I'd focus more on meetings, digging into operational issues, troubleshooting, basically everything except deep focused software development.
Prior to starting the meds, I had many successful years in technology at various organizations. That continued after the meds, but with one big difference: while I was able to sit down and focus before the meds, it took an enormous amount of effort and energy. I'd come home from work and immediately nap for an hour before waking up with enough mental energy to go about the rest of my evening.
On the meds, my total ability to focus was roughly the same, but it didn't take nearly as much energy. A 9 hour day at work would not leave me drained.
I've always had the fortune of having the prescribing docs break up my maximum daily meds into many small dosed tablets, which gave me a lot of flexibility.
Thankfully, after all this time, the meds still work very well for me.
Isn't that normal? That's certainly been my experience of work over the last decade. And I haven't even been working 9 hour days (more like 7.5 on average).
Try one of these:
donefirst.com
helloahead.com
>For people with ADHD, they can be truly life saving. For recreational use, avoid.
Just so you are aware, amphetamines are and have been used widely, and successfully, by people without ADD/ADHD. It has addictive qualities for sure, but I appreciate that people are allowed to try whatever substances they would like to try.
Can anyone break down the neuroscience for me and any meta-analyses studies on ADHD amph stims effect on early onset neurodegenerative disease?
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.06.20089748v...
I found no relationships with Alzheimer's.
The only big negative found seems to be blood pressure, but you can manage that just by keeping your weight in check and exercising regularly. I take medication and my blood pressure is at normal levels, I go for regular checkups.
The study authors actually mention:
"The association of ADHD patients prescribed psychostimulants with higher risk of diseases of the basal ganglia and cerebellum may reflect a more severe ADHD phenotype rather than a direct association between prescribed stimulant use and basal ganglia or cerebellum disorders."[2]
It's somewhat encouraging to see that this seems to be true and increased chance of Parkinson's is likely due to the severity of ADHD and not due to medication which helps people with ADHD be functional.
[1]: https://healthcare.utah.edu/publicaffairs/news/2018/09/adhd-... [2]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30209407/
Personally I am the other side of what you said lol I can't imagine that people don't feel it or don't enjoy it!
addiction science is cool and evolving. i wonder if people have different inherent dopamine regulation/Glutamate chemistry in their brains causing this difference of 'fun' [1]
and or maybe it's like cocaine or opiates where some people have to do it a couple times to 'notice' the difference. and then that difference drives your life lol
[1] https://www.intechopen.com/books/attention-deficit-hyperacti...
I've been considering trying to get a prescription for years, but I don't present most typical symptoms of ADD (maybe some inattentive ones?) so I suspect psychiatrists would be reluctant and just try to get me onto SSRIs, which have done nothing for me.
This is what Cocaine, MDMA or alcohol in reasonable doses would do to you. Stimulants generally do this to everyone.
I was sort of responding to the claims 1) that non-ADHD people "bounce off the walls" when using stimulants and/or 2) that ADHD people couldn't use stimulants socially because it calms and focuses them rather than amping them up. Either I'm in the former category, and then claim 1 doesn't really track because it genuinely is a calming sensation for non-ADHD people (sample size 1, myself), or I'm in the latter category and then claim 2 doesn't track because stims really can help ADHD sufferers (same methodology) with socializing.
I had to make it clear I was interested in pursuing a proper diagnosis, and that I wasn't just looking for some help to "cram" for a test or something, which apparently would have been good enough for a prescription.
Getting a proper diagnosis is a royal pain in the ass, but worth it. You shouldn't be screwing around with these drugs for fun.
I can confirm; I have ADHD and this even applies to stronger stimulants like cocaine. Cocaine doesn't do much for me, so I never understood why my friends were always bouncing off the walls while I was just chilling, like "what's the big deal with this drug". I didn't get it until I was diagnosed with ADHD and understood how our brains are wired differently.
When I started on Vyvanse after diagnosis, the biggest effect I noticed at first was that my mind just felt quite calm compared to usual. No high or anything like that, just .. not as many uncontrollable thoughts rushing around my mind like they usually do.
Now he just smokes a ton of weed everyday, but you would never know it, he's very normal, stable. Off weed? He's a mess, bouncing off the walls.
My experience aligns with this. When I take one I feel normal. Like how I should be in society. Unfortunately it causes me vascular inflammation as headaches.
So had to give it up. I use a non stimulant one now. Seems to be helping.
My daughter just started Vyvanse. Report from teachers is that her behavior is dramatically better.
Take 5-30 mg of Dexedrine, you'll be focused, a bit euphoric, maybe some jaw tension and anorexia. You'll get a lot done. Mild crash? It's a risk.
Smoke a point of meth and you'll be taking apart your toaster in no time. That's 100mg for those of you who grew up on the right side of the tracks.
I'm diagnosed ADHD, by the way. I prefer modafinil over amphetamines, I find the high milder, the wakefulness promotion is a nice bonus, it lasts longer too.
But this is, to be frank, what we used to call an old wives' tale. There is no medical basis for saying that stimulants hit ADHD brains differently. It seems to be a combination of wishful thinking, and doctors choosing to not let the general public know that low doses of stimulants will improve their focus and executive function as well.
Honestly I think that's a pity. Stimulants are a useful adjunct for productive work, at a reasonable dose. America did just fine, for decades, with de-facto legal amphetamine, nor has criminalizing it done much of anything to blunt the epidemic of abuse.
The difference between ADHD and the elusive "normal brain" is that a lot of us need our meds to function. I've taken a few months off, even a few years at one point, and looking back it was a disaster. I still take weekends off whenever I can, and the lowest dose I think I can get away with.
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines
Beyond everything else you've said which is all correct and reflects my experience, I want to point out something that doesn't seem well known in the general fabric of the ADHD topic:
Addiction and substance abuse are a common trait in adult undiagnosed/untreated cases. Alcohol abuse, amphetamine abuse, you name it. I can speak from personal experience here: before I understood I had a real chemical imbalance affecting my whole life, I had used and abused alcohol to the point it significantly damaged my life, and some important relationships. I can't say for sure that wouldn't have happened if I'd been diagnosed and treated earlier, but I can say the knee-jerk reaction about medically prescribed treatment that has very little risk of abuse/addiction is inappropriate given the outcome that's much more likely without treatment.
It's definitely true that there is wide individual variance (modafinil does nothing but disrupt my sleep and make me more sleepy over time, alas), but it is less clear to me that the differences follow cleanly along boundaries like ADHD/not ADHD.
I don't have ADHD, but I am prescribed Ritalin to help with a sleep disorder. There's no high, euphoria, or hyperactivity, just a boost to wakefulness and general mental function. Descriptions of the effect from people with ADHD sound familiar, just starting from a different baseline.
Most people will experience increased focus when first taking stimulants, ADHD or not. Many ADHD patients will experience euphoria with their first doses. The idea that ADHD people have polar opposite responses to medication is largely a myth.
Most long-term patients don’t identify with the euphoric or energizing comments because they’ve built a tolerance to those effects. There’s nothing wrong with that, because the therapeutic value doesn’t derive from inducing euphoria.
However, a drug-naive college student taking a double dose of Adderall will certainly be buzzing. For a short while. They will then suffer a rebound on the following day or days. There isn’t really a free lunch here.
The challenge is that non-ADHD people often try Adderall once, like the effects, and assume a positive response means they have ADHD. That’s blatantly wrong, but it has lead to many people pursuing unnecessary stimulant prescriptions in hopes of feeling that way every day. They are always disappointed when they discover that the long-term effects are very different than those first experience effects.
This isn't true, studies has shown that taking stimulants has no effects on grades for normal people. The "increased focus" they experience is just perception and not fact, it can even hurt their ability to focus. Being able to sit with a task for hours isn't "focus".
https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/news/20180726/adhd-meds-no-he...
> The students also showed an improvement in their alertness and their ability to focus, the researchers found.
The idea that only ADHD people see improved focus from stimulants is purely false, as indicated by the article you provided. It's a dangerous misconception, as many people use this misunderstanding to self-diagnose as ADHD when they take their friends' stimulant medication and experience improved focus. We need to be clear that non-ADHD patients still feel increased focus from stimulants as well.
You are correct that over-medicating with stimulant medications can harm certain types of cognitive function, in both ADHD and non-ADHD people. Dopamine has a well-known inverted U shaped response curve for certain cognitive processes. Going too far past the optimal point can worsen, not increase the focus changes.
The study also used a strangely high dose of Adderall. 30mg of instant release Adderall (equivalent to 60mg of Adderall XR) is actually beyond the recommend prescribing guidelines for ADHD. That's the type of dose that would typically only be prescribed to patients with severe narcolepsy or severe, intractable ADHD. I'm not sure why they thought it was a good idea to give it to medication-naive study subjects.
Also I'm not sure what your point is. Yes many people abuse stimulants in this manner and hurt their life due to it. However many people also greatly improve their life using stimulants. The existence of the first group doesn't mean much for how I need to use the medication, all I need to know is that the medication greatly improved all aspects of my life going from an almost certain failure to a top performer. If you don't see life changing improvements in grades or job performance then you probably don't have ADHD, at least not the same kind I have.
I don’t think I have ADHD but i want to take ADHD drugs to help with focusing. So I think I can be categorized as the Non-ADHD people.
I definitely feel an euphoric high when I take it, although it is less intense than MDMA, marijuana, or even alcohol.
You are correct to point out it doesn’t really help me focus more or improve performance. Its smart drug reputation is really misleading.
I found it less potent than coffee, which makes me very focused.
It’s most noticeable effectiveness is the suppression of my appetite and sleeplessness. When I am on it, I don’t feel hungry or sleepy at all.
I couldn’t work without drinking an insane amount of coffee, which makes me sleepless.
I plan to alternate between adhd drugs and caffeine.
Yes! I took Vyvanse for a little over a year. It was the best thing ever at first. The effects got progressively weaker until I could no longer justify using it due to the cardiovascular risk. Now I only take it before a high pressure test or performance.
Wish I could go back in time and take that drug again as if it was the first time...
> The proper medication and dosage should not make you feel "high"
This high is correlated with how fast the stimulant enters the brain. Drugs that enter the brain quickly and in large quantities often give this subjective experience and they're more addictive because of it. Route of administration can influence this. Safer drugs with lower abuse potential are designed to be released steadily in lower quantities over a long period of time.
Vyvanse is just an Adderall that gets released slowly over a long period of time. Therefore it has lower abuse potential than Adderall.
It does not make "high" in any sense. It does not create dependency (unlike, say, coffee). If I don't take it (and I often don't), there are no negative effects, just a lack of the positive.
Metylofenidat helps me a bit, but it gives "deadline-like focus". Focus, but rush, with increased anxiety.
(Ar)modafinil gives sniper-like focus. Decreased anxiety and emotional reactiveness, while still maintaining full emotional clarity. Non-deadline flow.
The first time I took Modafinil, I didn't feel like "on drugs". I felt the opposite - for the first time distractions (like checking FB every a few minutes) were not dopamine hits I craved. I understood a lot about "other people" and things people kept telling me for two decades. It seems that being less distractible was an everyday experience.
The only downside I saw is that it needs to be taken well before bedtime (as in: morning, noon) and that it makes one way less social (immunity to jokes, increased sensory sensitivity, "OK, but what's your point" approach to conversations, etc).
Readings: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/16/nootropics-survey-resu... and https://www.gwern.net/Modafinil
Is this not aso a common effect on the non a.d.h.d. sufferer,? which is why it is so commonly taken on exams, as a means to increase performance.
> For people with ADHD, they can be truly life saving. For recreational use, avoid.
Avoid it more than any other recreational drug?
My girlfriend is on a slow release ADHD medication, once a day; for her, it has to be a daily thing because else it just stops working. Is adderall a slow release one? May be more beneficial.
That said, what effect are you expecting? She describes the main effect of her medication to be a mood stabilizer.
I get the same reaction as you - I'm calm, still, patient. Much more "present" with my wife and far less likely to argue. If I need to plan, or organize something, the initial feeling of "oof" is no longer there. I just do the task.
I have however noticed that my heart rate (normally in the low 50s) hovers in the low 60s. I assume (but have not checked) that my blood pressure is also increasing. Both of these things are concerning.
For folks without ADHD, you should know that stimulants, like Ritalin and Adderall, do not usually cause the same response as in non-ADHD people. I've spoken with many people on stimulants, and none of them enjoy taking the medication, beyond what it has done to improve their lives. Furthermore, most ADHD people develop tolerance to medication over long periods of time -- eventually the drug does little-to-nothing itself. For myself, taking even high doses of a Adderall regularly produces no result -- might as well be taking sugar pills. I have to take them periodically (a few times a week at most) to get any sort of benefit.
The proper medication and dosage should not make you feel "high" -- if anything it's almost the opposite. You get some clarity, an ability to direct your focus without a thousand distractions a minute, and perhaps even a sense of time.
I let some non-ADHD friends try a low dose of Ritalin when I had switched off of it and had some left over, and they were bouncing off the fucking walls -- I would strongly not recommend taking stimulants unless medically necessary.
For people with ADHD, they can be truly life saving. For recreational use, avoid.