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Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by tryptophan on Saturday January 16, 2021 @10:34PM (#25807847)
Chemical reactions (such as forming it into a pigment) greatly change the biological effects substances have.

For example, you probably shouldn't drink OH- or H2O2, even though it is made of the same atoms as water.

Just because the pure elemental form is toxic doesn't make compounds with it toxic as well.

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by JohnJamesRambo on Saturday January 16, 2021 @10:45PM (#25807898)
I don't think that is a very good example. A better example would be is there a safe compound with lead or arsenic or mercury (known toxic elements) you would want to take into your body?
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by _Microft on Saturday January 16, 2021 @11:12PM (#25808037)
What about Barium? Water-soluble barium compounds are toxic while the insoluble barium sulfate is used as radiocontrast agent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barium_sulfate#Radiocontrast_a...

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by voldacar on Sunday January 17, 2021 @01:19AM (#25808622)
Well sulfates in general tend to be highly insoluble in water, and therefore biologically inert, so I think this is still kind of a cherry-picked example
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by avianlyric on Sunday January 17, 2021 @08:35AM (#25810510)
Isn’t cherry-picking kind of the point here?
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by chrisbennet on Sunday January 17, 2021 @09:49AM (#25811035)
Yes, tooth fillings.

"Dental amalgam is a mixture of metals, consisting of liquid (elemental) mercury and a powdered alloy composed of silver, tin, and copper. Approximately half (50%) of dental amalgam is elemental mercury by weight. The chemical properties of elemental mercury allow it to react with and bind together the silver/copper/tin alloy particles to form an amalgam."

https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/dental-devices/dental-am....

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by esperent on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:44AM (#25811590)
Amalgam fillings do offgas tiny amounts of mercury. Of course, this is a controversial topic and there's a lot of misinformation around, so do your own research. Personally, I came to the conclusion that the one amalgam filling I have is ok but too many would cause potentially toxic buildup over a lifetime so I'll never get another.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by SAI_Peregrinus on Saturday January 16, 2021 @11:13PM (#25808046)
Mercury amalgam (silver, tin, zinc, copper, etc) fillings.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by londons_explore on Sunday January 17, 2021 @04:28AM (#25809402)
There is a strong correlation between incidence of mercury amalgam and alzheimer's. Obviously correlation is not causation, but I'd still be wary of putting mercury in my body...
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by refurb on Sunday January 17, 2021 @07:53AM (#25810293)
No there isn’t a correlation. Maybe you are thinking aluminum? Even then the data is weak.

Mercury salts are corrosive, organomercury compounds are highly neurotoxic and elemental mercury is relatively non-toxic if ingested.

The form of the element matters a lot.

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by SAI_Peregrinus on Sunday January 17, 2021 @11:35AM (#25812109)
I'd also add that elemental mercury is toxic if inhaled as a vapor. While I mentioned fillings as a safe use, there is a (very small) amount of vapor released when they're installed, and more gets released if they need to be removed. Not enough to matter in adults. If you needed enough fillings for it to be a concern the dental microbiota issues causing the decay would be a far bigger general health threat. Indeed, Alzheimer's is linked to gingivitis (gum disease) and the hypothesized link with amalgam fillings may be an artifact of people with worse gum disease having worse dental health, and thus more fillings.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by stjohnswarts on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:48PM (#25828171)
Gonna need to see a source on that one. I've never seen it and I follow biology news quite a lot.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by jasonhansel on Sunday January 17, 2021 @12:37PM (#25812785)
Yes. As one example, arsenobetaine is an arsenic-containing compound that is naturally present in almost all fish that we consume. It is entirely harmless to humans in normal amounts, since we don't metabolize it into ordinary arsenic.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by ampdepolymerase on Saturday January 16, 2021 @11:33PM (#25808153)
Organic chemistry should probably be made mandatory as part of high school science education like physics. Parent looks like Exhibit A for anti-thiomersal hysteria.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by Scea91 on Sunday January 17, 2021 @03:50AM (#25809244)
It is not? I had at least 2 years of organic chemistry at high school (Czechia).
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by hobofan on Sunday January 17, 2021 @05:02AM (#25809532)
In Germany it's 1 year of the final 2 year Chemistry elective, where most people instead choose Biology or Physics (and I think if you are on a language focused path you might not even have to do one of them).
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by dividedbyzero on Sunday January 17, 2021 @07:16AM (#25810121)
It depends on the state level, but I believe in most (if not all?) you need to take at least one year of anorganic and one year of organic chemistry
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by hobofan on Sunday January 17, 2021 @11:22AM (#25811988)
Just looked it up and you are right, all of 10th grade is already focused on organic chemistry[0] (in Bavaria) for those with a STEM profile, while other profiles also have organic chemistry that year, but a bit less of it.

[0]: http://www.isb-gym8-lehrplan.de/contentserv/3.1.neu/g8.de/id...

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by craftinator on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:47AM (#25823593)
In the US, high school includes very basic chemistry lumped into general science topics. Pretty much all organic chemistry I've learned has been from Khan academy and wikipedia...
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by GreenWatermelon on Sunday January 17, 2021 @05:39AM (#25809680)
same in Egypt.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by JohnJamesRambo on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @11:08AM (#25834822)
I've actually worked for decades in science and the last ten in a chemistry department as a scientist looking for new cancer drugs. Don't assume things. I'm not that afraid of thiomersal since it is given so rarely. That doesn't mean I would love to be around a new pigment made from mercury...
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by makomk on Sunday January 17, 2021 @07:18AM (#25810131)
One of the things I learnt in actual chemistry classes was that organomercury compounds actually tend to be really toxic compared to elemental mercury. Unfortunately, there's been a fair amount of misinformation spread about this online in the name of fighting anti-vaxxers, often involving misleading analogues with stuff like chlorine and sodium.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by adrian_b on Sunday January 17, 2021 @11:20AM (#25811960)
I believe that the anti-thiomersal hysteria was quite justified.

Even if thiomersal is more effective at killing bacteria than at killing humans, there are no doubts that it is also toxic for humans and for any other animals.

While the thiomersal dose injected together with a vaccine is small enough so that in most cases it will not cause damages before being eliminated from the body, the risks are not negligible.

To willingly inject yourself with poison, even in a quantity that hopefully will not hurt you, seems rather stupid.

Better alternative bactericides must be found for vaccine preservation.

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by p_l on Sunday January 17, 2021 @01:29PM (#25813368)
The amount of mercury intake with vaccine that was preserved using thiomersal is smaller than amount mercury taken into organism when you drink a cup of tap water in many countries, including tap water declared safe to drink.

That's why it wasn't justified.

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by nkurz on Sunday January 17, 2021 @09:18PM (#25817450)
While you may be right that the total amount of mercury is not an issue relative to other sources, allergies to thiomersal are a real thing. Here's a page on it: https://dermnetnz.org/topics/thiomersal-allergy/

Personally, I eventually discovered that my terrible problems with wearing contact lenses in the 1990's were caused by the thiomersal used as a preservative in the saline solution I was using. Given my known and tested reaction to having it in my eyes and on my skin, I would be very reluctant to have an injection that contained it.

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by esyir on Sunday January 17, 2021 @09:35PM (#25817534)
Guess we should ban peanuts too, since allergies to that exist too. Some population being allergic isn't an argument to remove it, rather one for transparency and alternatives.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by zkomp on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:51AM (#25820073)
No it should be more like: I guess we should not put peanuts into vaccines without serious consideration.
[dead]
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by acidbaseextract on Saturday January 16, 2021 @11:48PM (#25808236)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylmercury

"Heh" is an obnoxious response, as if an organic chemistry class wouldn't teach the basics of organometallics and some of the things that make compounds more or less dangerous.

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by ampdepolymerase on Saturday January 16, 2021 @11:54PM (#25808258)
Correct. One reaction involving mercury would be Oxymercuration, a process that is usually covered in Organic Chemistry 1.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymercuration_reaction

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by hyperpallium2 on Sunday January 17, 2021 @05:20AM (#25809605)
Sodium and Chlorine are both pretty nasty.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by MrStonedOne on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:25AM (#25819893)
Sodium if ingested would very quickly kill you if the massive explosions in your mouth didn't hinder the ability to ingest it.

Chloride is also deadly in high enough concentrations (or rather, in non-trace concentrations), but we also use low amounts of it in pool cleaners.

Mix the two and you get salt.

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by OJFord on Sunday January 17, 2021 @08:42AM (#25810555)
Why does it need to be safe to 'take into your body'? I'm not going to drink lead paint or the turpentine used to clean brushes either.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by mathgeek on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:06AM (#25811204)
Likely for the same reason we rarely use lead paint anymore, or why micro plastics are a concern in bath products. Just for a couple of examples of products you don’t consume ending up in animal bodies.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by fortran77 on Sunday January 17, 2021 @01:20AM (#25808626)
There's a safe compound with sodium and chlorine that I eat every day.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by ReptileMan on Sunday January 17, 2021 @01:24AM (#25808639)
They are not toxic though - they are just so reactive that they corrode tissue.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by 2muchcoffeeman on Sunday January 17, 2021 @01:50AM (#25808735)
Why does that matter? The point is you can combine elements and create compounds that are drastically different to the components with different properties.

Obvious one is water. H - explody. O2 - burny. H2O - puts out fires, quenches your thirst, no longer a gas, not very reactive.

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by namibj on Sunday January 17, 2021 @01:44PM (#25813533)
Because corrosive is way different than toxic. Particularly, acid/base corrosion can and will be neutralized by our body once sufficiently diluted. Toxic compounds, especially heavy metals, stay toxic even if diluted.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by 2muchcoffeeman on Sunday January 17, 2021 @02:41PM (#25814137)
Again, so what?

The point being made is that you can take dangerous elements and then create a compound that doesn’t share the properties of the elements.

So a counter argument is to show that’s not true for the elements that make up the compound for this blue dye.

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by namibj on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:37AM (#25820713)
The point is, that making corrosive properties go away is easy and very typical, whereas toxic properties often have a habit of not going away after it enters the body.

Most corrosive substances release their effects on the surface they contact you, but toxic effects, especially the problematic ones, are way deeper.

The distinction is fairly important, especially regarding heavy metals.

Like hydrofluoric acid, for example. It's fairly easy to not notice you spilled some on your hand/arm until after it soaked through your skin, upon which the issue is systemic toxicity or at least bone damage. In contrast, sulfuric, nitric, and hydrochloric acids at any concentration up to azeotropic just cause burns and, for sulfuric acid, dehydration. There are no acute systemic risks from all but large-area burns, and even then it's mostly due to fluid loss which can be compensated for. (Yes, there are later risks due to loss-of-skin and skin graft surgery, but none of those complications try to have you pronounced dead you within a few hours of the spill.)

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by conception on Saturday January 16, 2021 @11:14PM (#25808048)
Mercury? Of course. Tooth fillings.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by cromka on Saturday January 16, 2021 @11:54PM (#25808256)
Just google "mercury amalgam cancer".
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by TedDoesntTalk on Sunday January 17, 2021 @12:10AM (#25808340)
I live in pride of my mercury-compound amalgam. You can choose to live in fear.

"Numerous other organizations have also publicly declared the safety and effectiveness of amalgam. These include the Mayo clinic,[21] the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA),[22] Health Canada,[23] Alzheimer's Association,[24] American Academy of Pediatrics,[25] Autism Society of America,[26] U.S. Environmental Protection Agency,[27] National Multiple Sclerosis Society,[28] New England Journal of Medicine,[29] International Journal of Dentistry,[30] National Council Against Health Fraud,[31] The National Institute of Dental and Craniofacial Research NIDCR,[32] American Cancer Society,[33] Lupus Foundation of America,[34] the American College of Medical Toxicology,[35] the American Academy of Clinical Toxicology"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_amalgam_controversy

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by perl4ever on Sunday January 17, 2021 @02:58AM (#25809047)
For better or worse, the dentists I have gone to in recent years don't use it any more. I have some old mercury fillings and at least one newer resin one.

Your link is interesting. It seems like the arguments against mercury amalgam being a problem include:

1) organizations like you listed saying don't worry

2) obvious scammers making a living blaming everything on fillings, even nonexistent ones

3) only 5% of people with fillings having elevated mercury in urine, particularly gum chewers

4) "hypersensitivity or allergy" are the "most likely health effects" but there is not clear evidence for or against autoimmune disorders caused by fillings.

It seems to me that it's perfectly conceivable, at the same time, that there is or has been a scam/cult of mercury fillings causing every possible problem, and at the same time, that they do do something to a minority of recipients that is different from acute mercury toxicity that we know about. There could be a combination of more than normal mercury released and more than normal sensitivity.

Something that would be interesting to research, I think, is the microbiome of people with and without different kinds of fillings. There's been some recent claim(s) about the bacteria that cause gingivitis being linked to Alzheimers.

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by namibj on Sunday January 17, 2021 @01:41PM (#25813495)
Here (DE) they stopped using it for fillings where it'd be visible in social settings.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by OpieCunningham on Sunday January 17, 2021 @12:44AM (#25808485)
From that link:

“A large retrospective cohort study found a significant association of mercury based fillings with the development of Parkinson's disease.”

(Reference to 2000 - 2008 study in Taiwan.)

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by xapata on Sunday January 17, 2021 @03:27AM (#25809142)
How many diseases did they significance test? What's the causal mechanism? Was there a proportional response, or was the causal variable thresholded arbitrarily?
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by spoonjim on Sunday January 17, 2021 @12:40AM (#25808477)
I'm not deep in a hole "living in fear," I just got the resin and don't have to think about it anymore.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by TedDoesntTalk on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:44AM (#25811585)
The resin fillings don’t last nearly as long. You’ll need a replacement down the road. I’m going on 40 years or so with my mercury filling.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by olyjohn on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @12:40PM (#25836116)
According to my dentist, the resin fillings are good for about 10 years. This matches with my experience of them falling out after about that long...
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by sk5t on Sunday January 17, 2021 @01:26AM (#25808648)
Just google "vaccine autism" - what's the difference?
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by xevrem on Sunday January 17, 2021 @07:39AM (#25810217)
theirs is based in scientific knowledge, yours is based in ignorance of that knowledge

"molecules are not the same as elements"

now repeat it with me

"molecules are not the same as elements"

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by heliodor on Sunday January 17, 2021 @08:56AM (#25810650)
Health-related topics is one place where google fails miserably.
Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by thereare5lights on Sunday January 17, 2021 @01:06AM (#25808569)
> A better example would be is there a safe compound with lead or arsenic or mercury (known toxic elements) you would want to take into your body?

Dental amalgam

Re:The first blue pigment discovered in 200 years is now com... by onei on Sunday January 17, 2021 @03:27AM (#25809143)
Thimerosal is a mercury compound used as a preservative in vaccinations [1].

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal