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Re:Google Images Restored by neilpanchal on Saturday January 16, 2021 @06:07PM (#25806390)
There are so many things that bother me about contemporary UI in general, I ranted on here the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24965293

I sincerely feel that the discipline of building user interfaces is long lost and perhaps never to come back. From car dashboards to loud typography, the whole field is regressing. Minimalism, too much white space, infantilization of users, design trends, loss of predictability, etc. are all symptoms of this.

There are still some gems that I find here and there: https://neil.computer/notes/the-design-of-diskprices-com/

Re:Google Images Restored by userbinator on Saturday January 16, 2021 @07:47PM (#25807018)
Minimalism, too much white space

Those two tend to be related. It really angers me every time I see a huge amount of whitespace for no good reason, but then most of the functionality is hidden behind a dropdown menu whose equally stupid '...' indicator only shows up when you happen to hover over it. WTF.

Back when UIs were still good, things would usually be hidden only if there wasn't enough space. You could see almost everything you needed at a glance. The "designers" dismiss that as "messy" and "clutter", which is frankly absurd --- something functional is not going to look "clean", much like a machine shop that's in active use: Tools and parts are laid out everywhere, because the user needs access to them.

That diskprices.com site is great. Craigslist is another one that comes to mind. The only thing it's missing is a "submit" button for those who have JS disabled... otherwise it's a perfect example of extremely functional design that wasn't ruined by "UI/UX designers".

Re:Google Images Restored by towndrunk on Saturday January 16, 2021 @08:34PM (#25807230)
"indicator only shows up when you happen to hover over it. WTF."

My wife and I had this conversation the other day. There are things in iOS you only get or see if you long press. How the hell are you to discover these things?

Re:Google Images Restored by chii on Saturday January 16, 2021 @09:31PM (#25807526)
It's a subtle psychological manipulation of the mind of the users of computers - stick to the simple use case, and don't do complicated things, don't try to be an advanced user, don't think for yourself and just consume what we tell you to.

I hate it.

Re:Google Images Restored by echelon on Sunday January 17, 2021 @02:17AM (#25808881)
> I hate it.

There's nothing you can do. Computing stopped being about expert users the minute the rest of the world got online. Now the giants control all the devices, platforms, and mindshare. They will never cater to you. Informed users aren't the ones clicking the ads or buying the things as intended.

We've crossed into the gravity well of user hostility, and there's no longer any escape.

I hate it too.

Re:Google Images Restored by Moru on Sunday January 17, 2021 @02:09PM (#25813820)
The annoying part is that they still need help with a lot of stuff but now all I can say is "no, I just don't know." I used to be able to figure out just about anything they wanted help with, be it how to program the video or set up windows just the way they wanted or in worst case write a program that solved whatever for them. Now I just feel stupid. What happened?
Re:Google Images Restored by greggman3 on Sunday January 17, 2021 @06:08AM (#25809811)
This sounds like a great inspiration for a modern parody of "They Live" (1988)
Re:Google Images Restored by Too on Sunday January 17, 2021 @01:35AM (#25808680)
Some times not even long pressing is enough. Try to find the timestamps of your texts in Messages on iOS.

I spent several minutes bashing around, double tapping, longpress, force press, went into settings to look for toggles. Had to google it eventually. Turns out you do this by swiping left. And i had actually tried to swipe sideways before, but only right.

Once you know it it's actually very convenient, but discovering it is near impossible.

Re:Google Images Restored by codetrotter on Saturday January 16, 2021 @09:08PM (#25807401)
> How the hell are you to discover these things?

Sometimes by accident, sometimes from hearing about it from others, sometimes from searching on Google for how to do something.

Re:Google Images Restored by andai on Saturday January 16, 2021 @09:09PM (#25807404)
I keep hearing about these secret iOS features. Is there a manual or something I should have read?
Re:Google Images Restored by userbinator on Saturday January 16, 2021 @09:37PM (#25807564)
But "modern" software is perfectly usable without documentation! /s

I miss the days when software actually came with very detailed documentation for the user. They had their hidden features too, but at least there was documentation for them.

Re:Google Images Restored by iaml on Sunday January 17, 2021 @12:21AM (#25808390)
Both ios and android have 'tips' app that fulfills this role and are hard to miss since they spam notifications at you.
Re:Google Images Restored by iFreilicht on Sunday January 17, 2021 @05:42AM (#25809691)
Long pressing is the equivalent of a right-click or shift-click, it's a well-established pattern. MacOS tried to avoid right-clicks for the longest time, but often there's just not enough space to have every feature discoverable by visuals alone.

Of course, hiding everything behind that is not good, but when I look at apps like FairMail that try to show you what you can do directly, it just gets very confusing and the space left for the actual content becomes miniscule.

Re:Google Images Restored by rebuilder on Sunday January 17, 2021 @02:26AM (#25808925)
>How the hell are you to discover these things?

The same way power users discover e.g. keyboard shortcuts, I imagine.

Re:Google Images Restored by userbinator on Sunday January 17, 2021 @03:02AM (#25809069)
The same way power users discover e.g. keyboard shortcuts, I imagine.

At least keyboard shortcuts are visible directly in the menus, for both Windows and Mac.

Re:Google Images Restored by jjoonathan on Sunday January 17, 2021 @12:17AM (#25808371)
Hamburgers and Hieroglyphs are where UX goes to die.
Re:Google Images Restored by p49k on Sunday January 17, 2021 @06:42AM (#25809964)
This is all personal preference, but personally I strongly disagree with you. I find that diskprices site to be poorly organized, difficult to use, and the majority of the site is the full (non-normalized) text descriptions of the individual items, which is not only a giant mess of text, but also unnecessarily replicates data. The data columns are misaligned, too much repetition of certain words that could be abbreviated ("External/ Internal"), etc.

I think it's good design to hide certain functions behind "..." - For example, I can't tell you the number of times I've accidentally flagged a post on HN just because my finger accidentally touched my phone or because I was trying to click the comments link a few pixels away (which is the feature that people want to access on 95% of clicks that occur in that region). If I had to hit "..." first, it would never happen because I would have just accidentally opened a menu. (And if you flag something, you may never be able to unflag it because it loses ranking and appears at another position somewhere on the site or disappears entirely).

Re:Google Images Restored by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Saturday January 16, 2021 @06:54PM (#25806706)
I think the current trend away from good UI is itself a symptom of a larger trend in our industry: the trend away from respecting the user.

Users are not customers now, they are cattle. You farm their attention and don't care about enabling them.

Re:Google Images Restored by nostromo on Saturday January 16, 2021 @07:26PM (#25806886)
This soulless corporate style of illustration not a single person likes:

https://www.imgur.com/DcL05OA.gif

(This could be a subset of infantilization, since this art style seems to come from books for toddlers.)

Re:Google Images Restored by rajacombinator on Saturday January 16, 2021 @07:40PM (#25806983)
What is the name for this abhorrent trend, and how did it originate and become ubiquitous?
Re:Google Images Restored by 0xfffafaCrash on Saturday January 16, 2021 @07:59PM (#25807086)
It's a "flat design" vector art style inspired by the work of the Memphis Group that's called "Corporate Memphis" primarily by critics. While Hacker News is apparently too sophisticated to be condescended to with simplistic animations that look good at very different resolutions, I think a lot of people like it.

If everyone hated this and considered it "corporate," it wouldn't be the one used by some of the animation studios that create the most popular content (e.g. Kurzgesagt).

Re:Google Images Restored by Green_man on Sunday January 17, 2021 @02:17AM (#25808879)
I'm pretty ignorant of design styles, but what always bothered me about "Corporate Memphis", and styles like it, was the very weirdly caricatured humans depicted within it. The people usually look incredibly weird, and while it's not quite "uncanny valley" or whatever, it feels like a very cheap and ineffective attempt at implying diversity. Maybe this isn't the intent at all, but it's most noticeable when there are differently deformed people in the art. People in real life come in all shapes and sizes, but not in the same way, with very bright colors and comically different proportions. As a non graphic designer, I appreciate that such a flat, 2D style may require some unrealistic designs, but as a human, I'm pretty sensitive to depictions of especially unrealistic human imposters. I adore Kutzgesagt, and I think that may be due in part to their predominant use of birds and other animals as agents, rather than strangely proportioned people.

"Here we love people, even if they have enormous hands!" https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbWYR4lWkAEOgAo.jpg

"I don't care if you're white, brown, black, orange, or purple!" https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Aleg...

Re:Google Images Restored by nicbou on Sunday January 17, 2021 @07:48AM (#25810264)
They represent an urbanite 20-something's version of diversity. I appreciate the effort, but I noticed that it rarely represents characters of different ages or styles.

This is very low on my list of grievances though. I like those vector characters quite a bit more than the stock photos they replace.

Re:Google Images Restored by josefx on Saturday January 16, 2021 @09:15PM (#25807444)
I wouldn't be surprised if the simplicity of the style made it interesting for constrained budgets and time tables.

Kurzgesagt mentions on its patreon that they used to spend on average 150 hours on each episode and are now at up to 500. While the style stayed mostly the same I think there is now also a lot more going on visually than in the early videos.

Re:Google Images Restored by andai on Saturday January 16, 2021 @09:13PM (#25807426)
I love Kurtzgesagt but don't like these graphics. I didn't realize they were supposed to be the same style!
Re:Google Images Restored by anfilt on Saturday January 16, 2021 @09:07PM (#25807395)
I don't think it has anything todo with vectors. Sure general vector art tends to be simpler. What I see is mostly people complaining about empty space, that can be used, and have to access common actions through a menu, also a lot of times no way to add common action like customizable readily available menu ect...

While the uncluttered design for something someone only uses a couple times might be fine to avoid overwhelming someone. If you use it daily and even multiple times a day that can make it harder to use.

It also remind me something i read about a ticket kiosk for some transit system. They updated the kiosk with simpler interface to select various things. While effective for infrequent riders, people who would purchase tickets daily found it much slower because the old kiosk allowed them to type in codes they memorized.

Re:Google Images Restored by GuB-42 on Saturday January 16, 2021 @08:27PM (#25807201)
I'd say it started with the mobile web. Lots of space and simplistic interfaces make a lot of sense when you have a small screen and fat fingers. It is terrible on a desktop but since people want a unified experience, to keep things familiar to the user and to simplify development, you get the least common denominatior.

I'd say that the "flat" trend was started by Microsoft with Windows Mobile and Windows 8. Apple and Google followed (for once Apple didn't start the trend). I liked it at the time, maybe for the novelty, but it quickly faded. Still I understand why people may like it.

Re:Google Images Restored by tpxl on Sunday January 17, 2021 @06:11AM (#25809820)
> people want a unified experience

Never have I ever heard of a user wanting a unified experience. I have heard plenty of designers though.

Re:Google Images Restored by int_19h on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:13PM (#25849796)
Why would I want a unified experience between desktop and mobile, when input methods are completely different? It's kinda like using a bicycle handlebar to steer a car.
Re:Google Images Restored by userbinator on Saturday January 16, 2021 @07:53PM (#25807053)
Re:Google Images Restored by zwlee98 on Saturday January 16, 2021 @09:41PM (#25807583)
the Official name is Humans of Flat.

https://onepagelove.com/tag/flat-design-humans

Re:Google Images Restored by vagrantJin on Sunday January 17, 2021 @12:43AM (#25808482)
Dribble and Behance unfortunately dictate UI/UX as trendy photoshop ideas infiltrate real websites.

What about usability? What about accessibility?

Nope.

Re:Google Images Restored by unixhero on Sunday January 17, 2021 @12:35AM (#25808453)
To be fair, the guy in the top right tile is a lucky guy!
Re:Google Images Restored by antihero on Sunday January 17, 2021 @06:07AM (#25809808)
See whilst diskprices is very functional, it is aesthetically poor.

Good design has both functionality and form.

Design is not only about being as useful as possible, but also to present something that is beautiful - it is easier to build a relationship with a user when they are compelled to enjoy a product more due to its visual appeal.

I think a lot of developers seem oblivious to the power of aesthetics because they are so ardently in the functionality camp. The density of information on DiskPrices, whist great for a power user, would probably be daunting and overloading for the average user and whilst it has a retro vibe, is catering to a niche - people technical enough to be looking at disk prices.

Re:Google Images Restored by RedShift1 on Sunday January 17, 2021 @03:37AM (#25809182)
100% agree. When I look at the Windows 10 UI, like for example the settings app, everything is flat, square, 2 tone and all the whitespace makes it look disorganized. It looks downright depressing.
Re:Google Images Restored by jspash on Sunday January 17, 2021 @04:45AM (#25809462)
My biggest gripe - since I can’t add to your excellent critique of today’s design problems - is when someone comes up with yet another css framework or the like which removes ALL affordances, hides critical functions under mysterious icons, removes ALL colour and personality... then calls it “beautiful”.
Re:Google Images Restored by iFreilicht on Sunday January 17, 2021 @08:20AM (#25810440)
I don't agree with you 100% here, I believe some small tweaks could make diskprices.com more accessible. But your own main website is so damn good: https://neil.computer/

Functional, high visibility, accessibility, discoverability. There's no bullshit, no hidden anything, it's true minimalism and 100% honest. This is what actual good design looks like. A dark mode would be nice, though.

Re:Google Images Restored by NetOpWibby on Sunday January 17, 2021 @03:38AM (#25809186)
Neil has some great posts and I agree with everything you said. Twitter, Facebook, and Google all look like Fisher-Price design, it’s annoying.
Re:Google Images Restored by pottertheotter on Sunday January 17, 2021 @12:18AM (#25808374)
I agree with you overall, but diskprices is far from perfect UI. The layout of the information and how it is accessed is useful. But other design elements, such as color, would make it better.

One of the best designed products I've ever used is the TiVo DVR. We first got one in 1999, the year it came out. I loved it, but realized how well it was designed when I started using other DVRs in the mid 2000s. As a prime example, to delete an episode on a TiVo required pressing one button. On another DVR I had it was six button presses! It was like this for countless things. It was obvious the folks at TiVo had thought long and hard about usability and design and other manufacturers couldn't care less.

Now imagine if TiVo made their remote a rectangular cuboid with hard edges, and all the buttons were hard plastic squares that were all the same color. It would still be much easier for me to delete an episode on the TiVo than on other DVRs, but holding and using the remote would not be a positive experience. Putting some work into the remote so it fits in your hands, the buttons are nice to press, and color and shape of buttons helps you find the button you want would make it so much better (thankfully they did).

Diskprices is similar to the hypothetical TiVo with a crappy remote. Someone worked hard on some aspects of design and usability, but out of either ignorance or arrogance ignored the rest of the aspects.

Re:Google Images Restored by ju_sh on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:56PM (#25826527)
Agreed. Finding the right balance between beauty and functionality is definitely a something that seems to be in decline. I've used applications that present too much data and others that hide it all away, both equally frustrating.
Re:Google Images Restored by jtolmar on Saturday January 16, 2021 @09:15PM (#25807441)
I appreciate the structure of that diskprices website, a big list and a filter bar is one of those classic designs that has disappeared in the modern web. Nowadays it'd be an AI-sorted list that attempts to filter with a search bar, the list would fit four items per page because it insists on showing you pictures of hard drives, and it'd be paginated at some absurdly small number of results per page (or infinite scroll).

That said, I disagree with its FAQ claiming whitespace and color wouldn't help. It'd be a lot easier to actually read the data with a light alternating row color, slightly more vertical spacing, and not styling the links as a wall of underlined blue text.

Re:Google Images Restored by abhinav22 on Sunday January 17, 2021 @04:40AM (#25809445)
I like your website too! Very nicely done