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Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by stickfigure on Monday December 14, 2020 @01:50PM (#25421486)
I stopped reading at Try to recall a time back when the Internet didn't exist... Where things like cars and phones functioned on their own in a much more reliable manner.

I grew up in the 80s and have owned several cars from that era. They were significantly less reliable than cars of today. Carburetors were still present (though being phased out) and there were always vacuum hoses that, when they leaked, caused your car to run like crap.

Also, phones: Cellphones were extremely expensive and unreliable. Landlines were extremely unreliable at reaching other humans because as often as not, the recipient wasn't home. Also, I remember all kinds of problems with landline wiring leading to noisy connections. Also, unless you were calling a close neighbor, you paid high per-minute charges.

It's really hard to find something that was better in the pre-internet era. Cars and phones aren't it.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by goodside on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:07PM (#25421735)
I think you're overlooking the "on their own" part. The OP isn't lamenting that things are less reliable in general, just that they aren't reliably capable of working offline or on a local network.

Phones are maybe an odd example, but it's somewhat true: Traditional phone systems let you make local calls even if long-distance lines fail, or within a building without leaking data externally. Very few people would ever need (or expect) newer voice/video chat systems to be usable in this way, and they largely aren't.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by abruzzi on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:34PM (#25422106)
heck, POTS line phones can even function with a power loss since they derive their power from the phone line (unless you have a POTS line phone like a cordless where it has to charge a battery and operate a 900mhz connection to the handset.)
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by vanilla_nut on Monday December 14, 2020 @09:58PM (#25426466)
As someone who grew up in a town with frequent winter storms that caused power outages, my family's POTS rotary phone was very handy during blackouts.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by sn_master on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:31PM (#25422871)
I was able to use the Windows XP Telnet app to chat and send ZIP files to another person when the Internet was down during the 2011 revolution. Hell, it was even better because only party had to pay the call's cost!

POTS is amazing, and its sad to see it going away :(

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by FpUser on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:27PM (#25421991)
I am not sure about now but accordingly to what my friend told me at the end of 90s and in the beginning of 2000s in Russia they would wire whole apartment buildings as a very fast LAN with P2P capabilities. So if you urgently needed to download whatever there was very good chance that your request will not cross boundary of said LAN.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by CountSessine on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:25PM (#25421971)
I don't think I've ever heard a fast-busy signal from my cell phone, even once. But it happened lots with landlines when too many people were making local telephone calls. Circuit switched networks kind of suck in a lot of ways. I don't think I would say traditional phone systems were as reliable as modern telephone and data systems.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by falcolas on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:39PM (#25422163)
Wait for a disaster to happen in your area - a time when you'll want your cellphone the most. At which point your cellphone will be... well, a good camera.

And personally, as someone who grew up in the 80's, let me offer up a counter-anecdote: I don't ever recall hearing a "fast-busy tone". There was never a time we couldn't use our land line (at least until we had a modem, that is).

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by stickfigure on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:50PM (#25422298)
I live in a disaster-prone (wildfire) area. I'll take cellphones over landlines every single time.

1) In the event of a major disaster, you've probably evacuated. You can't take your landline with you.

2) Telephone poles burn.

3) Even if the cellular system is completely hosed, you might still be able to get on a data network. All you need is crappy wifi anywhere (cafe, hotel, friend) and you can get an email out.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by falcolas on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:02PM (#25422452)
I have to admit, I'm not entirely sure why there's so much hate for reliable technologies like landlines. All I can guess is that they stole someone's lunch money. Or people feel the need to justify their cellphone purchases by coming up with specious arguments against the "competition".

1) Not all disasters can be evacuated away from. Tornadoes, for example.

2) So do power poles. And those telephone poles are also probably carrying data.

3) You can't dial 911 via email.

Cell network congestion is a well known phenomenon when disasters strike. It's been seen multiple times in the past. Yes, landlines can and do fail as well, but they're more resilient than cellphone networks.

Perhaps this will flip in the future, but it hasn't, not yet.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by stickfigure on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:39PM (#25422957)
1) How's landline infrastructure going to hold up to tornadoes?

2) Yes, power goes out too. Cellphones have batteries.

3) Yes, you can dial 911 via "wifi calling". I've done it.

I don't know about "hate" but I do think landlines are overrated. You already have a cellphone. Paying for an extra service and apparatus for the tiny possibility that you need to call 911 when your cellphone can't - why? Who else are you going to call? Do you even know their phone numbers without your cellphone?

I also think you're undervaluing cellphones by assuming they only talk on the cellular network. You just need to get on a data network somewhere and you suddenly have a wide variety of communication options, including phone calls. TCP/IP was designed to withstand nuclear war.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by CountSessine on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:59PM (#25423218)
I grew up in the 80's too. What you say is very very dependent on your service area. I have fantastic coverage where I live, but I live in a big city. I've never had a problem with initiating a call on my mobile. It's likely my operator has done a better job of pico-celling my area than yours has. You might consider switching.

I got fast busy tones several times a year back in the 80's, and it usually corresponded to whenever a concert was announced. Maybe my phone company back then was as bad as your mobile services company is now?

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by Broken_Hippo on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:58PM (#25422405)
Well, that relies on a couple of things. A disaster can take phone lines out as well as electricity. You might not have zero cell phone service if towers are working. Land lines would get clogged at times and simply fail you (I've had this happen).

You generally have some charge on your phone, though, and lots of folks have power banks now - or cars they can charge their phones with.

Don't forget all the times when disaster strikes and the cell phones are a real help: Car accidents, for example. At one time, you were reliant on you - or someone else - stopping by a house and hoping they'd be home. And I'm sure there are lots of other examples of this as well. Now that laws changed, cell phones can pretty much always call 911 as well, even without service at all: This was not the case with phone lines. If the house didn't have service, you couldn't get help.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by falcolas on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:08PM (#25422541)
In large disasters, cell phone networks have historically become so bogged down that even with fully functional towers and phones, you couldn't use the network. Perhaps sometime we'll have sufficient provisioning of cell phone towers to absorb such large spikes in usage, but we're not there right now.

Crucially, however, there is no profit in getting to the point of being properly provisioned for emergencies, and no regulation pushing for it. Land lines, in contrast, are regulated to push for availability during emergencies.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by toast0 on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:44PM (#25423018)
Yeah, I don't think cell phones do fast-busy. They just timeout dialing without a carrier driven noise (mine have usually made the boop-boop noise like when the other party hangs up). Of course, with a cell phone, you can never tell if it's the network is busy or the tower is out of range, or the tower is broken. With a landline, you can tell if the line is dead (totally disconnected), really broken (voltage on the line, but no dialtone), or just pretty overloaded (dial tone, but fast busy for all numbers). And, if you made a habit of calling very busy numbers (like Netzero dial-ups), you could learn the tricks to get better priority; dialing the first N-1 digits, waiting a few seconds, and then the final digit would get me a waiting modem way better than just auto-redial on busy.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by Lammy on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:34PM (#25422102)
They sure sounded a lot better though.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by falcolas on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:41PM (#25422186)
Lower latency too. It's crazy how much of a difference low latency really makes.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by NickM on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:51PM (#25422317)
Yes, this 100%. I miss being able to talk to people like they're in the same room, with no detectable latency, the way that local landline calls used to work.

I think most people don't realize why phone calls suck these days; it just feels awkward and cumbersome, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by SllX on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:39PM (#25422164)
Not with VoLTE and FaceTime Audio around now. Inter-carrier calls can still suck, but I now have noise canceling headphones which enables me to get a much more intelligent signal out of the mouth of the other caller than I could with just the call speaker held up to my ear.

There’s a lot that still sucks, but I don’t miss landlines the slightest bit. Scheduled do not disturb is a godsend next to trying to remember to turn the ringer on the landline in the hallway off at night.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by mehrzad on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:12PM (#25421806)
You're right that cars are more reliable today but I follow a lot of mechanics on YouTube (Car Wizard, Kilmer, etc) who say that cars were easier to work on back then. These days (at least in the luxury segment) there are a lot of electronic components that can only be repaired by the OEM. We are also in a strange transitional period with the addition of auto start-stop, hybrid engines, etc that also complicate the car.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by wnevets on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:23PM (#25421936)
> You're right that cars are more reliable today

even that is changing according to youtubers like Kilmer. IIRC he has lambasted his favorite car maker Toyota for having a lower quality today than years past.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by boznz on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:24PM (#25421955)
New cars are based on black boxes that need to be coded to work together so if they break it is generally the authorised repair shop or the scrapyard.. So sad :-(
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by ohazi on Monday December 14, 2020 @01:58PM (#25421601)
The internet didn't fix these things, fuel injection, electronic ignition, and digital signal processing / denser silicon integration did.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by stickfigure on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:04PM (#25421699)
Irrespective of why, cars and phones did not function in a more reliable manner back then. The statement is false.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by mywittyname on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:21PM (#25421917)
They could be fixed using low-tech tools though.

Something you're overlooking with your concept of "reliability" is that cars produced before 1980 can be fixed using pretty basic tool. It's conceivable that a car from that era could continue to work well into the 2100s. Because most of what can break on can be remanufactured by a reasonably-skilled machinist.

Yeah, cars need to be fixed much less often, and they are substantially less fickle vis-a-vis temperature and operating conditions. But the moment the software to repair newer cars is gone, so too goes our ability to easily fix them.

This isn't some far-flung dystopian idea either. It's totally possible that the hardware & software used to repair today's cars is difficult or impossible to come by in 30 years. Some of this stuff is five- and six-figure investments. Maybe stuff for GM or Honda vehicles will be accessible, but what about smaller companies like Mazda or Subaru?

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by ryandrake on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:47PM (#25422264)
Yes! To me, reliability goes hand in hand with repairability. Id rather have something that breaks every 2 years that can be fixed with a wrench than something that breaks every 10 years and cannot be repaired without a $2000 trip to the dealership where they use a $20,000 diagnosis computer to troubleshoot.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by stickfigure on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:12PM (#25422608)
There's "fixable in theory" and "fixable in practice". As a former gearhead, I'd argue that cars from the late 70s/early 80s are effectively unfixable - it was the era when emissions standards were ratcheting up, but controls were still mostly analog. Engine bays were a giant morass of rubber vacuum hoses that nobody sane wants to deal with anymore.

Mid-70s and earlier cars tend to be simpler, but they would never pass modern emissions tests. We picked clean air and fuel efficiency over simplicity. I don't think this was wrong.

It's really hard to know what to think about the direction cars are heading. Yeah, there's a lot of closed software and electronics. On the other hand, I have at least one friend with a hacked Tesla. And the huge emissions regulatory and inspection regime that prevents you from making changes to engines doesn't apply to electric cars. So it's a mixed bag.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by sokoloff on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:20PM (#25422708)
In the US, older cars generally just need to pass the emissions regulations in effect when they were manufactured.

In practice, that means that most states which have any emissions inspections now just connect to the OBD2 port, check for ready and no faults, and pass the car, with cars that predate OBD2 being either visually inspected for obvious defects or not inspected at all for emissions.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by CountSessine on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:31PM (#25422067)
"Easily fix" is relative though. It was never a majority of car owners that fixed their own cars. I would never have maintained a thousand-dollar toolbox to fix and maintain my car - not then and not now. I'm just not mechanically inclined. For us, there's no difference - we need to take the car in to be serviced either way. The complexification of automobile engineering has disenfranchised a small minority of car owners. But for the rest of us, we just don't need to bring the car in for servicing as much. It's a huge win for the majority.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by mywittyname on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:19PM (#25422706)
Having a machine that can operate for 30 years with minimal or no maintenance is a type of reliability.

Having a machine that can operate for 200+ years with refurbishment is type of reliability.

There are pros and cons to each. The former is good so long as your country continues to grow, remains wealthy & educated, and retains the ability to constantly produce better replacements. Not every country has that luxury.

The VW Type 2 (what Americans call the "VW Bus") remained in production for the Brazilian market until 2013. That's a poor country and cars are expensive, so the ability to have a vehicle last a lifetime is very important. The Type 2 is something that can be repaired by almost any machine shop with basic fabrication tools.

You'll see this a lot in developing countries. Where "new" automobiles would be recognized as a 1980s or 1990s model by those living in developed countries. Manufactures keep them going because the tooling is cheap and easy to keep going.

Those 80/90s cars are dead reliable too.

Once the spare parts for an American 2020 Honda Civic are exhausted, it's unlikely that new parts can be fabricated. That's fine, so long as there's a 2050 Honda Civic or similar to available replace it, and that such a vehicle can still be afforded.

> I would never have maintained a thousand-dollar toolbox to fix and maintain my car

You might be surprised by how much work you can do on a 90s-era Japanese car with a 14mm wrench and a screwdriver.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by sokoloff on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:15PM (#25422633)
I would say that even CIS/K-Jetronic injection (well into the early 90s) will be quite maintainable 50+ years from now. Even L-Jet doesn't require anything particularly sophisticated, but there are likely some already obsolete components in those boxes (though hundreds of thousands or millions of them in junkyards, surely far more than we're consuming).
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by maya24 on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:10PM (#25422576)
Your argument is a strawman. Car and phone or bad examples to prove your point because car reliability improved because of factors unrelated to the internet, and phone reliability improved because a better reliability of satellites and computer networks. Better examples are things like watches or desktop applications which seem to work fine before they were connected to the internet.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by denimnerd42 on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:15PM (#25421840)
While it's true that cars are way more reliable nowadays. There are still engineer tradeoffs being made against reliability. Lightweight (fuel efficient) oils are being used, gas tank emissions capture (a system of rubber hoses and solenoids which fail easily), EGR systems, etc all are a detriment to reliability even if they have other positive uses. Today's cars could be far more reliable if that was a bigger design goal.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by ardy42 on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:16PM (#25421861)
> Irrespective of why, cars and phones did not function in a more reliable manner back then. The statement is false.

You're missing the point, and misinterpreting that statement to mean something far broader than it actually says. The article is about unnecessary internet dependency, not about the mechanical reliability of cars, and it's a derail to make it about that.

Also, you're interpreting "a time back when the Internet didn't exist" as the 80s. For most people, the internet didn't exist as late as 1995, and I've driven some pretty reliable cars from that era.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by pas on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:14PM (#25421830)
Most cars are still not Internet connected. And most Internet-enabled cars still run perfectly fine without access to the Internet.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by mywittyname on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:31PM (#25422061)
Depending on your definition of "internet connected," I'd disagree with your first point. Most new cars come equipped with the hardware for a data-enabled cellular connection and many have been for years. While it's not a feature you necessarily see or know about, it's there. Presumably, the ones that are used by a service like OnStar are constantly polling in the background to get status updates for the account the vehicle is associated with.

But yes, to my knowledge, most (all?) operate fine without a cell signal.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by sliken on Monday December 14, 2020 @04:47PM (#25423810)
I have heard of various ride share services stranding folks in the middle of nowhere because of lack of signal.

Not heard a single story of an internet connected car not having basic functionality work without internet.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by pas on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @02:42AM (#25427968)
There was a story about a rental car stopping when it crossed a border, because the rental package was domestic use only.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by mcguire on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:29PM (#25422026)
So you missed the other half of that example? "Now consider current times when your thermostat becomes completely unresponsive in the middle of winter because a vital network goes down. Imagine you're not able to operate your car during a crisis because networks are down?"

Something, something, "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. ... Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by stickfigure on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:33PM (#25422083)
That statement is also false.

I have a Nest thermostat. It works fine without the network. I have a modern car. It works fine without the internet. Several of my friends have Teslas. They work fine offgrid.

It's just nonsense. Stop defending it.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by falcolas on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:50PM (#25422312)
Wasn't there recently a story of a Lamborghini which wouldn't start because it didn't have a cell signal (it was in an underground garage)? Some sensor had been tripped, which made the car require network validation before it would start back up.

And don't Nest thermostats occasionally have an issue where they default back to somewhere in the 60° range due to a server connectivity issue?

https://support.google.com/googlenest/thread/20510237?hl=en

Doesn't seem like nonsense.

Other fun internet connected car reads:

https://www.wcpo.com/money/consumer/dont-waste-your-money/wo...

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/306338-phone-app-rental-...

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by stickfigure on Monday December 14, 2020 @04:08PM (#25423334)
As noted in the HN thread, the Ferrari was disabled due to an anti-theft device and couldn't be unlocked remotely due to connectivity. Lack of connectivity is not responsible for the car being disabled; an attempted "theft" (from the device's perspective) was, and a stuck car is exactly what the owner asked for.

Even if there have been a few historical software bugs that caused some Nests to change temperature, it did not "become completely unresponsive in the middle of winter". Worst case is you walk up to the device and turn the temperature back up. Also, there's nothing in that bug report that suggests it has anything to do with internet connectivity.

A quick google search shows plenty of people getting locked in non-internet-connected cars.

The modern world is complex. Even before I replaced my thermostat with a Nest, my furnace was already way more fragile than my fireplace.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by sokoloff on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:23PM (#25422765)
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by SilasX on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:25PM (#25422791)
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by Broken_Hippo on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:02PM (#25422457)
Old thermostats died from time to time, even when they weren't very old. Same with cars. They just had different problems than the modern ones.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by falcolas on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:03PM (#25422473)
Absolutely! But their failure cases weren't due to the inability to access a network or a server. This is whole new set of failure cases which exists over the top of the old ones.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by mcguire on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @08:49PM (#25438051)
Anybody remember Iris?
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by nalekberov on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:12PM (#25421802)
Then big brothers came along, built centralized systems, you bought devices you have zero clue how they work. With your own money you let them collectively manipulate you.

I believe this is what the author tried to explain.

Internet and technological advancement is not evil per se, too much power in a very tiny group is going to be problematic.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by jellicle on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:15PM (#25421855)
Vehicle engines are better made today but now we are introducing new points of failure intentionally. It is as if there is a certain quantity of failure that must be present. In fact a vehicle produced just prior to "everything connected to the internet and the manufacturer can turn it off any time if they don't like how you're using it" probably represents the peak of reliability and now we are going somewhat downhill.

The NEXT Google Outage will involve 32 million cars refusing to run because they can't log in to your Google Account.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by boznz on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:07PM (#25421729)
Most audio gear was built to last then, my sound system, speakers and amplifier is from the 80's and still sounds so sweet. The only other notable mention was my Nokia 2110 which I had for from 1996 until 2001 and was bulletproof. (but alas not waterproof)
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by SirLuxuryYacht on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:08PM (#25422543)
I use my Kenwood kr-3130, which was given as a gift to my mother in the 70s, every single day. Still truckin'
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by styfle on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:02PM (#25421670)
Video games that didn’t need software updates :)
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by ASalazarMX on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:15PM (#25421853)
They actually did, but the updated versions were for new sales only.

OTOH, software update is being widely abused nowadays, there's no pressure to get it right off the bat. As long as the update framework is robust, everything else can be weak since you can send another patch whenever you want.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by cardiffspaceman on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:51PM (#25422324)
In the 90's game publishers started to make things available via BBS, FTP, AOL and CompuServe and others. And it was already taken advantage of in quality control. Also "mail me a floppy."
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by gambiting on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:09PM (#25421756)
Yes they absolutely did, they just couldn't get them. Games still shipped buggy, you just had to get used to it, tough. I work with people who were in the games industry in late 90s and the idea that games shipped without bugs is just funny to them.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by ASalazarMX on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:19PM (#25421901)
The question is, were those games shipped as buggy as today's games?

Today's games are more buggy, in part because they're much more complex, and in part because software update allows to ship them unfinished.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by gambiting on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:28PM (#25422828)
Yes, of course modern games are more buggy, because like you said, they are more complex and yes, the assumption is that they can be patched later. But the "old games didn't get patches and they were fine!" Thing is really really not true.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by m463 on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:18PM (#25421885)
Now an update can "fix" broken business models.

I loved the "fixes" to Plants vs Zombies when EA bought popcap.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by nalekberov on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:18PM (#25421884)
i have bought some nintendo games a year or two ago, some of them received 0 update, still operate as a charm, without any (at least noticeable) bug.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by jjk166 on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:29PM (#25422028)
Survivor bias: the games people fondly remember and want to go back and play decades later are generally the ones with few if any problems. The buggy crap got purchased by an unlucky few and then was quickly abandoned and forgotten.

It's also why classic music, books, movies, etc are great - decades of pruning leaving a short list of best-ofs.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by nalekberov on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:40PM (#25422965)
I was talking about the ones for Nintendo Switch. And they are pretty much complex games.

Back in 90's in order to survive game producers had to have sense of quality and knowledge of definition of "finished".

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by ASalazarMX on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:25PM (#25421972)
Switch or retro? Retro was specially hard because once you shipped the cartridges/CDs, the only way to get a revised game was to buy it twice.

Still, Nintendo does a pretty good job of avoiding most critical bugs before release even on the Switch.

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by rictic on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:09PM (#25421767)
Also video games that didn't get regular, free content updates. Top of mind because my partner and I are doing another playthrough of Terraria and there's once again a bunch of new content for us to go through.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by ASalazarMX on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:27PM (#25422004)
OTOH, those games didn't have microtransactions or lots of paid DLCs.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by boznz on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:30PM (#25422042)
OTA Updates negates proper testing. Read this as good or bad but most everything is working this way now.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by astrange on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:39PM (#25422961)
It’s very important to still test them otherwise you might break the update mechanism!
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by samtheprogram on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:07PM (#25421743)
Software updates were necessary to bring about internet play without rampant hacking and cheating, and also can provide general fixes to you giving you better value over time, so I’d have to disagree. If you don’t want to play online, you really don’t need software updates anyway.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by throwaway2245 on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:11PM (#25421793)
I hit plenty of game-breaking bugs before updates were a thing.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by NikolaeVarius on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:17PM (#25421877)
I imagine people would love a original PacMan update that solves the overflow issue
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by toast0 on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:53PM (#25423132)
How does fixing that bug get more quarters into the machine? :)
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by ASalazarMX on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:30PM (#25422053)
IIRC MAME has a cheat that solves that issue.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by FpUser on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:34PM (#25422088)
I do not have 80s experience but starting from 1994-1996 (do not remember exactly) I do not recall any major problems with any of my cars. There was one exception when the transmission broke (I could still drive to repair shop) but from what I see this kind of shit can happen now just as likely.
Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by Dirlewanger on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:36PM (#25422125)
>It's really hard to find something that was better in the pre-internet era.

Big ticket home items like fridges, washer/dryers, TVs. They're all planned to shit the bed just after their warranty wears out so that companies can squeeze out extra money from them. Nothing is made with pride anymore. There's many facets as to why this is, but as a civilization I don't think we're ever going to be able to go back to the way "the way things were"

Re:Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made wi... by MeinBlutIstBlau on Monday December 14, 2020 @04:09PM (#25423342)
Why do I need cellular data now to use google maps driving gps system when I didn't a year ago?

It's not that we don't need the internet, it's arbitrarily requiring the internet for apps when they worked without it before.