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Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by anonymousDan on Friday December 11, 2020 @05:47PM (#25392572)
Is it just me or are there fewer serial killers these days?
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by dragonwriter on Friday December 11, 2020 @06:19PM (#25392992)
> Is it just me or are there fewer serial killers these days?

Maybe. OTOH, the decline in identified serial killers tracks with the decline in identifying the perpetrators of killings period, as the clearance rate for homicides has dropped. Plenty of room for serial killers to hide in that:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/10/are-ser...

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by peter303 on Friday December 11, 2020 @08:39PM (#25394380)
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by mchusma on Friday December 11, 2020 @10:43PM (#25395301)
Only 60% of homicides are solved? I would have guessed like 99%. This is sort of crazy to me.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by thinkingemote on Saturday December 12, 2020 @05:39AM (#25397349)
The main reason is that most homicides are not the fancy middle class pre meditated murder type of crime as seen on TV but are often related to other criminal activities and with low evidence. This means that any witnesses are likely going to be within that world of not speaking to the police and any evidence in a gang killing for example, will be of low quality.

But it also matters what we mean by "solved" too.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by whimsicalism on Saturday December 12, 2020 @10:25AM (#25398781)
And there are less resources devoted to poor people getting murdered
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by LgWoodenBadger on Friday December 11, 2020 @11:57PM (#25395701)
Try watching a show called “the First 48” on A&E sometime. Their murder cases are only solved because a suspect confesses. If the suspect doesn’t confess, or lawyers up, then forget about solving it.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by jmnicolas on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:25AM (#25396726)
I watched a few episodes, but this show is depressing. I noticed that most of the time they get their suspect because someone "snitches".
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by ALittleLight on Saturday December 12, 2020 @05:08AM (#25397206)
My own personal speculation is that TV shows have a lot to do with it. People watching TV get used to the idea of an elite crew of colorful personalities inevitably hunting down their man, and they think murder is a guaranteed jail sentence, so they murder less often. In reality, probably pretty easy to get away with murder.

Also: video games. Young men, who commit most of the murders, spend more time playing video games and therefore less time murdering.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by monadic3 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @06:53AM (#25397694)
Yup, and this doesn't even include all the disappearances that never get called homicides. You're disincentivized against calling a case a homicide if you can't bring a case—your clearance rate will drop. It also doesn't cover all the clearances which involved an innocent person pleading guilty to avoid heinous sentencing.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by 14 on Friday December 11, 2020 @11:08PM (#25395431)
I read that in Mexico that number is less then 10%. https://www.animalpolitico.com/kill-murder-mexico/homicides-...
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by Synaesthesia on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:41AM (#25395890)
Same in South Africa
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by ehsankia on Saturday December 12, 2020 @05:05PM (#25402196)
But really, what made these serial killers famous is that they often tried to communicate and bask in their fame, no? I'm curious if they no longer advertise themselves, or that their letters are no longer advertised widely?

I do remember seeing the luka magnotta documentary on netflix (don't fuck with cats), which while not quite a serial killers, comes close to someone who liked the attention.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by jack_pp on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:15AM (#25396370)
And here I was thinking that in today's surveillance ridden landscape it's far harder to get away with crime
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by jmnicolas on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:23AM (#25396714)
No you just catch the ones that didn't do their homework.

Most of the (solved) crime news I read about, I'm always confounded how unaware criminals are about "tradecraft".

For an example of stupid criminals, I remember reading in the local newspaper about a group of guys that had robbed a store of phone cards (the story is a bit old) and tried to sell them back to said store.

Instead of using a public phone with one of those cards, they just used their own mobile phone to contact the store. Since in France you're required to give ID to get a SIM card, I'll let you guess how long it took the police to find the robbers :)

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by speedgoose on Saturday December 12, 2020 @09:52AM (#25398554)
In Belgium a group of robbers was told by a shop owner to not steal him now but to come back in the evening to steal more money from the cash register. He also managed to convince the police to be there in case they would come back, and they did.

https://www.20minutes.fr/insolite/2359379-20181023-belgique-...

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by thinkingemote on Saturday December 12, 2020 @05:44AM (#25397381)
It's survival bias in that we don't know about the criminals that get away with stuff, only the ones we catch.

Most burglaries and robberies are performed close to where the criminal lives. They are mostly opportunistic crimes done criminals with no thought at the time of what they are doing and no fear of the consequences.

The stereotypical version of that is the drug addict doing anything to get money for their fix, but generally it's associated with not very smart people who do stuff and do not fear the consequences.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by jimbob45 on Friday December 11, 2020 @06:30PM (#25393116)
What is the “clearance rate” of a homicide? I see you’ve used that phrase a few times here and it’s keeping me from understanding your contributions.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by chordalkeyboard on Friday December 11, 2020 @06:41PM (#25393241)
The number of murders 'cleared' divided by the number of murders recorded. What makes a crime cleared or not depends on who is doing to measuring but consider it to relate to whether the government thinks that they have enough evidence to charge someone with the crime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearance_rate

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by wombatpm on Friday December 11, 2020 @11:22PM (#25395507)
Now they just shoot people
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by aerovistae on Friday December 11, 2020 @10:40PM (#25395273)
Funny you ask! I was just pondering that the Zodiac, who only was confirmed to have killed like 5 people, is a legendary serial killer who most Americans are familiar with, because of the mystique around his moniker and his cyphers and who his victims were.

Yet the Chicago Strangler [1], who is still active, still operating to this day, 50+ victims, few have heard of....because he attacks marginalized groups like black runaways rather than white people.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Strangler

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by charlchi on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:13AM (#25396361)
Do you honestly believe everyone would suddenly know about the Chicago Strangler if they were murdering only white meth addicts? This racial rhetoric is so tired.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by nostromo on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:24AM (#25396414)
Exactly. Just look at the Green River Killer. He’s not well known, but he killed 50 young women, mostly white, but also mostly runaways and sex workers.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by aerovistae on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:38AM (#25396479)
I feel like the Green River Killer is quite well know...

But even if he's not as well known as Zodiac, again, look at the victim profile: runaways and sex workers. It's not just about skin color, although for some reason both of you zeroed in on that. I specified "marginalized groups" such as [mostly black] runaways. It's about being poor, unknown, and not white.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by newnamenewface on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:58AM (#25396588)
"Yet the Chicago Strangler [1], who is still active, still operating to this day, 50+ victims, few have heard of....because he attacks marginalized groups like black runaways rather than white people."

Your implication is that white people can't be marginalized. Economics cut across skin color.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by badconvincer on Saturday December 12, 2020 @10:17AM (#25398707)
But biased police judgement doesn’t...
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by whimsicalism on Saturday December 12, 2020 @10:27AM (#25398789)
LOL the green river killer is quite well known and I'd never heard of the Chicago Strangler.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by aerovistae on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:36AM (#25396473)
No, not white meth addicts. But middle class or wealthy white people, abso-fucking-lutely.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by yanks215 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:39AM (#25396788)
In another comment in this thread, you mention that a condition of being marginalized is being non-white. The logical inverse of that is white people cannot be marginalized. Yet here, you acknowledge that white people can be marginalized.

So, which is it?

The common thread seems to be economic status as another commenter stated.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by Scarblac on Saturday December 12, 2020 @04:06AM (#25396912)
He never said that was a condition. He only said that that serial killer targets black runaways, and that that is a marginalized group.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by mckirk on Saturday December 12, 2020 @04:47AM (#25397091)
> ... because he attacks marginalized groups like black runaways rather than white people.

That strongly implies that a white person couldn't be marginalized.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by polytely on Saturday December 12, 2020 @05:54AM (#25397424)
That isn't that clear to me, I feel that you are reading to much into it and seem to be looking for a fight where there is none?
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by mckirk on Sunday December 13, 2020 @06:14AM (#25405764)
Alright, my previous comment was too fuzzy, let me try to be more clear.

Directly contrasting a specific "non-white marginalized group" with "all white people" does, for me, evoke the impression as if the assumption was that there were no people among "white people" that could be marginalized the same way.

> He only said that that serial killer targets black runaways, and that that is a marginalized group.

This is the part of the comment I was replying to that I took issue with and felt I had to rebut, because it's simply a false summary. The original comment definitely was a stronger statement than that through the broad comparison it drew.

If the original post had been phrased "... rather than white middle class people" (which I believe was the intention), I would completely agree with it.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by Scarblac on Saturday December 12, 2020 @06:54AM (#25397695)
No it doesn't.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by badconvincer on Saturday December 12, 2020 @10:16AM (#25398695)
Yes. The police have had a long history of chalking up death in impoverished black neighborhoods to “gang violence” and closing investigations. Topically, Chapelle had a famous stand up bit about it.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by nerdponx on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:11AM (#25395780)
The article said there are something like 40 murders possibly associated with the Zodiac killer even though only 5 are confirmed.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by sunstone on Saturday December 12, 2020 @07:46AM (#25397902)
I'm not a student of serial killers but it's hard for me to even begin to formulate a motive for this particular guy. Men that kill women is common; women that poison men is pretty common. Let's theorize these people have a fetish for killing. Another category is those with automatic weapons that kill groups of people all at once. Just for notoriety knowing they will be caught or expect to commit suicide at some point in the process.

But Zodiac is killing couples he doesn't know at a distance with a gun (or a knife, likely because a gunshot would draw too much attention). He wants to be notorious but not personally notorious? He just has a hate on for anonymous couples? Are there (m)any more examples of this kind of killer? Hypothetically, if he could kill say a hundred couples from a distance with a bomb would that motivate him? I'm just not getting it.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by emerged on Saturday December 12, 2020 @01:14PM (#25400220)
There are many ways to be deeply evil, in some sense it’s just chance which style of evil any particular person grows attached to.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by npunt on Friday December 11, 2020 @06:10PM (#25392886)
Lead crime hypothesis probably explains some of it [1]

We do have far more mass shootings though :(

[1] https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-le...

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by sneak on Friday December 11, 2020 @06:22PM (#25393029)
Shootings in general are way down, though, even with mass shootings included.

Many people don't realize that the US is at some of the lowest gun violence levels seen in decades right now. The 90s were way, way worse.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by subsubzero on Friday December 11, 2020 @07:25PM (#25393678)
The 90's were an insanely violent time, besides gun violence being at all time highs etc, I remember in high school in the mid-late 90's fights every day happening at school. Some people say lead caused the violence, all I know pollution was horrible in silicon valley (south bay) in the 90's. Every day in the summer you couldn't see the mountains and there was a thick brown haze in the air.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by brodie on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:08AM (#25396344)
I’d like to reply to badconvincer, but my vouching for his dead comment isn’t reviving it. Anyway, what I want to say is this:

Growing up in the 90s, witnessing 9/11 and the ensuing cultural “snap back,” I think both of you are right. I think what we really had going on before 9/11 was that the country had a very cavalier, devil may care attitude. For some sections of society, that enabled a more carefree lifestyle; for others, we literally didn’t care if they destroyed each other. I think that devil may care attitude disappeared after 9/11 and especially during the ensuing wars.

Where we’re at culturally now would probably require an entire essay to explain. I do think an argument could be made that something similar happened in the late 2000s and early 2010s, where one segment of society let its hair down and was able to exhale, while a totally different class of people were marginalized.

We’re at or near another cultural “snap back” now, I think. What that’ll look like, I have no idea.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by badconvincer on Friday December 11, 2020 @11:19PM (#25395486)
Fights were more common, bullying was rampant but people seemed lighter and happier like nothing was pent up. Probably just rose colored glasses though.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by taeric on Friday December 11, 2020 @07:00PM (#25393459)
It is actually kind of frightening hilarious to see movies like Predator 2's depiction of the future. Robocop, as well. It is stark how violent things were back then, it seems.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by Apocryphon on Friday December 11, 2020 @07:03PM (#25393485)
Does the U.S. even have massive organized crime operations like those in those pop cultural depictions, anymore? Seems fewer than we used to.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by Tuna-Fish on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:49AM (#25396838)
Organized crime is more powerful and better organized right now than it has ever been in American history.

The reason people are unaware of this is that organized crime is really only visible when they are having problems. Gang wars lead to news coverage, one gang monopolizing an area and effectively extracting revenue from it does not.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by taeric on Friday December 11, 2020 @07:09PM (#25393537)
Not that I know of. Mayhap I'm just ignorant of them?
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by saalweachter on Friday December 11, 2020 @07:19PM (#25393635)
Escape From New York is my favorite.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by kevinmchugh on Friday December 11, 2020 @10:20PM (#25395109)
Robocop is intended to be funny.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by faeyanpiraat on Saturday December 12, 2020 @01:56AM (#25396271)
Source?
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by maffydub on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:30AM (#25396445)
Not sure about the original Robocop, but Robocop 2 definitely had comic moments - the bit I particularly remember was the Sunblock 5000 advert (https://robocop.fandom.com/wiki/Sunblock_5000).
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by taeric on Sunday December 13, 2020 @01:11AM (#25404674)
I think it was intentionally "raised to eleven." Supposed to be a somewhat satirical take on where things were headed. That said, I couldn't cite why I think that.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by JetSpiegel on Sunday December 13, 2020 @01:12PM (#25408635)
"I'd buy THAT for a dollar".
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by werdnapk on Friday December 11, 2020 @08:58PM (#25394551)
Modern DNA analysis and forensics might have something to do with it. It's a lot harder these days than 50 years ago to not leave any evidence.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by CamperBob2 on Friday December 11, 2020 @11:38PM (#25395616)
Not to mention cameras.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by nscalf on Friday December 11, 2020 @05:52PM (#25392648)
It could just be better policing. If you catch someone after they kill once or twice, they don’t get the chance to become a serial killer. But I haven’t looked up any stats on this.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by dragonwriter on Friday December 11, 2020 @06:20PM (#25393010)
> It could just be better policing.

If it was “better policing”, you expect the clearance rate for actual homicides to have gone up as well as the identified serial killers to have gone down. Instead, the clearance rate has gone down, as well. “Worse policing” of murder would better explain both reduced clearance of homicides and reduced numbers of identified serial killers.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by cedilla on Friday December 11, 2020 @09:36PM (#25394819)
Worse policing also leads to more incorrect clearings.

Who knows how many murders were incorrectly pinned on husbands or wives, or known petty criminals, or tramps? The same technology we use to find murderers can also exonerate people.

We also tossed out a lot of bogus methods based on pseudo-science and learned a lot about the reliability of witnesses; and all the modern technology exposed many expert witnesses as charlatans.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by oh_sigh on Friday December 11, 2020 @06:56PM (#25393409)
There can be multiple factors at play. For example, future serial killers may be caught after one killing, but drug gang murders may go unsolved.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by fnord123 on Friday December 11, 2020 @07:54PM (#25393958)
There's also the mobile phone effect. The dopamine treadmill has stopped people from going out and murdering.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by StavrosK on Friday December 11, 2020 @05:59PM (#25392737)
Or they know how to hide better. We've always only caught the stupid ones anyway.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by chaostheory on Saturday December 12, 2020 @04:41AM (#25397066)
Surveillance is much easier these days with that little computer in our pockets. Doesn't that nearly everyone still publishes their location to services like FB. I predict that the West will move closer to Chinese style surveillance and censorship. Actually, I don't have to predict it. It's already happening little by little.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by shakezula on Saturday December 12, 2020 @04:03AM (#25396897)
I’ve read before that the FBI estimates there are ~50 to 70 active serial killers in the U.S. at any given time. The problem is they’re incredibly sporadic and sometimes go dormant for any number of reasons for months, years, or decades at a time.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by jti107 on Friday December 11, 2020 @06:00PM (#25392761)
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by sixQuarks on Saturday December 12, 2020 @09:04AM (#25398271)
Like a lot of things these days, people don't take pride in their craft anymore. Everyone takes shortcuts. Today's serial killers are sloppy and just want to do things quick and easy so they can get back to browsing facebook and instagram.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by Hamuko on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:21AM (#25396703)
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by seph-reed on Friday December 11, 2020 @06:04PM (#25392818)
I was watching point break last week, and temporarily felt bad that bank robberies can't really happen anymore. If for no other reason, because they make a good story line.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by greenburger on Friday December 11, 2020 @06:20PM (#25393011)
Over three thousand banks were robbed in 2018 in the US alone.

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/bank-crime-statistics-20...

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by byecomputer on Friday December 11, 2020 @11:18PM (#25395480)
I was in the Quad Cities (Iowa/Illinois interface) in the spring and there was a bank robbery pretty much every other week. Turned out to be the same guy each time, but as an East-coaster who's not too familiar with the Midwest there was a couple of months I was convinced that bank-robbing simply never died out in the heartland.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by Talanes on Friday December 11, 2020 @08:38PM (#25394376)
Bank robberies rarely ever happened like Point Break to begin with. The average bank robbery is a quiet affair conducted with a slipped note and the implication of a gun.

I interviewed a family friend who had then recently retired from chasing bank robbers in the FBI for a school project a decade and change ago. The biggest take-a-way was his assertion that, at least at that time, anyone could get away with robbing a bank once. It's not getting away with the crime itself that's hard: it's not leaving a pattern on the next one.

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by kevinmchugh on Friday December 11, 2020 @10:11PM (#25395039)
Have also heard this from someone in law enforcement. He said it's the easiest crime to get away with, as long as you only do it once and don't particularly care about the money. The dye packs make it hard to spend.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by bigbubba on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:13AM (#25396362)
I've heard it claimed that bank tellers won't risk giving a bank robber dye packs if the robber specifically demands no dye packs. But I'm pretty skeptical of this..
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by scanny on Friday December 11, 2020 @10:00PM (#25394983)
They still happen, including a ‘Heat’-esque one in Brazil the other day [0].

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-55155377

Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by zatel1 on Friday December 11, 2020 @09:28PM (#25394763)
If your interested in a semi modern bank robbery. Evil Genius on netflix is a strange and winding story that begins with one.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by jacquesm on Saturday December 12, 2020 @01:07PM (#25400169)
There are more parallel killers though, the number of school shootings is not exactly going down.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by Anon4Now on Friday December 11, 2020 @06:34PM (#25393173)
Maybe they all watch CSI, Dateline, etc. and know how to avoid detection better.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by hobofan on Friday December 11, 2020 @07:55PM (#25393972)
I guess that influences the perception of "fewer serial killers" at the same time beyond the drop of detection. The way that "big name" serial killers like Zodiac or the Golden State Killer became widely known is by actively taunting the police/public, which nowadays is probably far too risky to do. So we not only have serial killers that know how to hide better, but also ones that know not to seek out media attention.
Re:The Zodiac Killer's most uncrackable cipher has, at last,... by vffhfhf on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:32AM (#25396453)
Video games and internet.

Bored people are unpredictable.