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Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by criddell on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:41AM (#24518183)
> Time to see for myself if this is the computing future or an evolutionary dead end.

There's a third possibility - VR is finally here and consumer market is what it is. It's not going to take over the world but it isn't going away either.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by dougmwne on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:01PM (#24518444)
I'd say that is the same as a dead end. Right now this is a very expensive, multi-billion dollar toy with toy demonstrator apps and proof of concept games. It needs to be a game changer and the future of something or the research funding and developer ecosystem are going to dry up. And given the amount that Facebook must be losing on the Quest 2 and the all-in nature of this launch, if this doesn't take off now, the runway for Oculus at FB may be over.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by koiz on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:38PM (#24518902)
>Right now this is a very expensive, multi-billion dollar toy with toy demonstrator apps and proof of concept games.

We are far past tech demos and concept games.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by mikepurvis on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:16PM (#24520080)
But it's clearly not a mass market thing either— mass market is mobile games raking in millions, Switches selling out during quarantine, the upcoming PS5 launch, and Epic having splashy platform wars with Apple and Valve. Those are billion dollar gaming events which all have nothing to do with VR.

There's no non-nerd out there who thinks "maybe I'll try VR", and goes into a store to buy... whatever it is, goes home to have a great time with it, and immediately tells their friends. No, it's Linus Tech Tips upgrading his water-cooled living room PC with a special USB3 card just to get enough bandwidth to all the peripherals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFuLvGf0g0c

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by agar on Friday September 18, 2020 @06:28PM (#24522479)
Others have said this, but I'll reiterate: your description of mass market is precisely what's happening with Quest. Your view of VR seems rooted in pre-Quest (i.e., exclusively PC-tethered) VR and not the stand-alone world.

In fact, so many people literally went to Best Buy or Walmart to purchase a Quest that it has been sold out since the beginning of the year, online and off, with eBay pricing at 50%+ premiums.

You literally open the box, run an app on your phone (for configuration), put the HMD on your face and you're in VR. People not only tell their friends, but buy multiple versions to give to friends and family.

With Quest 2 at a $299 price point, the non-nerds saying "maybe I'll try VR" will happen even more often. The OculusQuest subreddit has a constant stream of questions about this very behavior. It is currently the ~2,000th most popular subreddit, with an impressive growth curve[1]. Some are literally buying the Quest 2 instead of the PS5 (though clearly a small number).

So far, 35 games have made over $1m on Quest alone, with one clearing that figure in 4 days and another in 8 days. Top games have made over $10m, not even including revenue from Steam, PSVR, or the Oculus PC VR platform. These aren't Epic / Apple level mega-wins, but many mobile developers would be happy with $5-10m revenue figures.

Upcoming VR games are coming from top tier publishers like Respawn (Medal of Honor), Ubisoft (Assassin's Creed, Splinter Cell), and Rockstar (unnamed AAA open world game)[2], Crytek (The Climb 2), and EA (Star Wars: Squadrons).

Additional games include Sniper Elite, Warhammer 40,000, Star Wars: Tales from the Galaxy's Edge, Jurassic World Aftermath, and Myst. And this is just the tip of the iceberg from brands/publishers you may know.

Point being, stand-alone VR has really addressed many of your (and the market's) concerns.

And, to be fair, in your linked video Linus was trying to use optional, expensive peripherals for full-body tracking while streaming - not exactly a mass-market use case.

[1] https://subredditstats.com/r/oculusquest

[2] https://uploadvr.com/rockstars-new-vr-game-guesses/

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by dougmwne on Friday September 18, 2020 @07:16PM (#24522785)
Great perspective! I think things are early stage, but that the next couple of years are going to be the most exciting period for VR with possibly several of the upcoming games you mention hitting very large sales numbers. There's no guarantee, but just like the Wii was the must-have console of its generation, the Quest 2 has the potential to be a runaway success with sales numbers simaler to the consoles. As technology watchers, sometimes we watch these incremental improvements over many years and its hard to recognize the moment something is about to pass into the mainstream.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by fxtentacle on Friday September 18, 2020 @06:44PM (#24522576)
The problem is, those numbers are nowhere near close to the price of making triple-A games. I heard Assassins Creed Origins cost 80 mio and Odyssey was 100 mio. With that in mind, "Top games have made over $10m" sounds like we won't be seeing high quality VR games anytime soon.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by agar on Friday September 18, 2020 @09:38PM (#24524048)
A few points to consider:

1. Facebook funds many of these games; think of it like a first-party game made to drive sales of a new console. The developer gets paid up front, Facebook recoups the revenue via incremental sales of HMDs and software on their store.

2. Note that many games are VR offshoots of existing IPs. This means the opportunity for asset re-use and consequently lower costs.

3. "High quality" and "big budget" are not equivalent. There is a huge spectrum between a tech demo and a flagship title with 400-500 people working on it (as is the case of AC). AAA-caliber, lengthy games can be made by teams of 50-75.

4. Again, those revenue numbers are on Quest only. PSVR is an even larger market, and PC VR (Vive, Index, WMR, Rift) is probably about the same size.

The most important point though is that if your entry point requires Cyberpunk 2077, Red Dead Redemption 2, or The Last of Us, then it is indeed too early.

However, the two hottest non-VR games right now are Fall Guys and Among Us - great, high quality games come in all sizes.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by andybak on Friday September 18, 2020 @07:45PM (#24522993)
So now it's "AAA or it's a flop"?

It does feel like the goalposts are being placed wherever VR isn't.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by pavlov on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:36PM (#24520344)
> "..."maybe I'll try VR", and goes into a store to buy... whatever it is, goes home to have a great time with it, and immediately tells their friends."

This is definitely a thing that happens with the Oculus Quest already. The hardware is easy to use and the software library is pretty much in place now. A major marketing campaign could make it really take off.

I don't have any insight into FB VR's decision to require the login on Oculus devices now, but my guess is that they consider the device to be ready for a mass market, and believe that the gains from the social graph will be worth the short-term pain of leaving early-adopter money on the table from here on.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by dougmwne on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:08PM (#24520731)
Yes, really agree with this perspective. Last year Carmack's talk was equally interesting and he stated that they had all the usage data on several different visions of what VR could be (Rift, GearVR, Go, Quest) and that the data showed the Quest had the most engaged users and the product finally showed signs of being sticky. At the time it convinced me not to buy because their v2 was clearly going to get a big investment now that they had plausible product market fit.

I think the Quest showed FB that they had a potential winner on their hands and the Quest 2 is moving out of MVP phase to mass market phase. They are gambling that this is going to take off in a big way and they pushed hard to get an improved version out there and ramp up their manufacturing faster than most thought they would. They clearly want to be first to the "Oasis" with Horizon if that's ever going to be a thing and the FB login is a piece of that. If this is a flop, it will be a huge disappointment to the execs. If it's a win then FB may have been first to plant their flag in our VR future, for better or for worse.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by TeMPOraL on Friday September 18, 2020 @05:11PM (#24521916)
I keep seeing the word "Oasis" being mentioned on the recent Oculus threads. What does it refer to? Some company? Some meme I'm missing?
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by pavlov on Friday September 18, 2020 @05:20PM (#24521981)
It's a reference to a VR environment in the sci-fi novel "Ready Player One" by Ernest Cline.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by TeMPOraL on Friday September 18, 2020 @05:22PM (#24522006)
Thanks! Haven't read the book yet, and forgot the name from the movie.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by xnx on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:48PM (#24521159)
Agree. Compare the popularity of Beat Saber to what Wii Sports was and you have a measure for how far out of the mainstream VR still is.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by Fej on Saturday September 19, 2020 @07:48PM (#24531038)
The PSVR has sold 5 million units or so to date, and there's going to be a second generation. There are a lot of games which support it due to this install base. That's pretty mass market.

(It's popular enough that Sony actually has made a second iteration of the headset, but it's not an upgrade.)

It's not as accessible as the Oculus Quest, but the PS4 has sold roughly 106 million units to date, and gamers are probably the biggest market at present for VR devices.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by blackearl on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:32PM (#24520290)
I completely disagree. Quest and a game like Beat Saber are about as broad as you can get. Right out of the box you're swinging your arms around to popular EDM music. The price point is low enough to make it a solid holiday buy for a good amount of people as well. VR is also one of those things that you can show anyone and really wow them. It's not like handing a controller to a non-gamer and having them discouraged because they don't know how to use 2 joysticks.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by leereeves on Friday September 18, 2020 @05:51PM (#24522242)
Many games like Beat Saber, in which you move with the beat, have been popular fads, but home hardware for those games (like Dance Dance Revolution dance pads or Guitar Hero guitar controllers) has never been more than a niche product.

VR needs more than that.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by MikusR on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:34PM (#24520311)
Quest also sold out during quarantine.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by paulcole on Friday September 18, 2020 @06:59PM (#24522675)
There was a time when everyone in America knew who Mario was.

Is there anything in VR apps/games that’s even passingly familiar to 1% of average people?

Personally, I know Myst has been ported to VR and that there’s some way to watch NBA games in VR but that’s about it.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by mjparrott on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:05PM (#24519961)
For example?
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by c0nfused on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:14PM (#24520798)
Half-life alyx is wonderful. I cannot praise it enough.

I played too much half-life in my college days and think of it as fun campy sci-fi. Stuff like press e to move this dead body is suddenly this viscerally horrific experience.

You picked up a box of matches accidentally? Read the label. Found a pen draw something.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by koiz on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:40PM (#24520400)
Echo Arena, onward, pavlov, beat saber, arizona sunshine, stormland, the climb, journey of the gods to name a few.

oh and myst is coming, MYST.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by blackearl on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:36PM (#24520346)
Beat Saber is the obvious answer with the most general appeal.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by Animats on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:47PM (#24520483)
Right. Beat Saber works because the virtual world does not rotate relative to the real world. That rotation is what induces nausea. The player is confined to a small box in the virtual world; they never move very far, and the virtual world is locked to the real world.[1]

Games with that constraint are limited. You could do ping-pong. Shooting galleries.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV1sw4lfwFw

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by blackearl on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:23PM (#24520881)
Ok but it's not a tech demo or some proof of concept. It's a fully fleshed out game with high profile DLC and a strong mod community. Nausea has nothing to do with this.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by andybak on Friday September 18, 2020 @07:50PM (#24523044)
I'm not sure your understanding of VR motion sickness is quite right. Most people are completely fine with teleport locomotion which is sufficient for a huge class ofs games.

Also cockpits seem to reduce nausea thus opening up another broad category.

It's mostly smooth first person motion with strafing and smooth turning that is problematic.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by munificent on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:18PM (#24518680)
> It needs to be a game changer and the future of something or the research funding and developer ecosystem are going to dry up.

I hate that we live in a world so dominated by network effects, economies of scale, corporate consolidation, and shareholder value that there are fewer and fewer realms where "small success" still exists.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by dougmwne on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:28PM (#24518793)
Me too, but then given the complexity of this tech, I think it's much closer by order of magnitude to a moon landing worth of engineering than Pat's Sustainable Bamboo Bicycles. Big projects, big scale, big money.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by Barrin92 on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:28PM (#24520925)
Palmer lucky literally did built the first Occulus in his garage. I don't think it's fair to compare this technology to the moon landing.

You're right that some sort of ready player one metaverse thing is probably on that level, but creating genuinely interesting, fun VR experiences that may in many ways be more interesting and unique does not to me seem beyond the scope of small scale business.

In a sense VR is one of the purest versions of that sort of cyberspace idealism, it's an escape hatch away from curated, corporate products to whatever people want to make. So I'm not pessimistic that creative people find things to built.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by smolder on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:54PM (#24519108)
Me, too. I think economic pressures like you described generally harm quality of life. We end up with less "real wealth" --all the work-products that would otherwise make net QoL better, for the sake of monetary wealth concentration. As usual this comes down to the incentives and disincentives we've baked into our system not aligning with the best overall outcome. They align with the perceived needs of the biggest fish only.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by kkdsafjid on Friday September 18, 2020 @01:12PM (#24519313)
Being able to buy a VR headset for 400$ is "real wealth".
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by nitrogen on Friday September 18, 2020 @01:24PM (#24519469)
I have to disagree. This argument comes up in every discussion about wealth inequality. 'The non-wealthy can't complain, because everything is so cheap now.'

Real wealth is, you know... actual wealth. It's being able to start a high 6-figure to 8-figure business (or even smaller if you are satisfied) and not being laughed at as a failure. It's being able to buy rather than rent everything you want to buy. It's having productive assets.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by shard on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:30PM (#24520248)
> It's being able to start a high 6-figure to 8-figure business (or even smaller if you are satisfied) and not being laughed at as a failure.

I suspect this is a bit of a SV bubble viewpoint. I don't think that in the general population, if you tell people you are pulling 8-figures in your business, you would be considered a failure.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by hombre_fatal on Friday September 18, 2020 @05:39PM (#24522145)
Yep, sounds like someone who spends way too much time on forums. Do they even have a 6-figure business that's literally getting laughed at? And was that "laughter" more than maybe an internet comment, at most? Starts to sound more like superstition.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by phkahler on Friday September 18, 2020 @04:09PM (#24521360)
>> It's being able to buy rather than rent everything you want to buy. It's having productive assets.

If by "productive assets" you mean income/revenue producing, then I'm not sure we can all have that. Many assets like that require some else to pay rent.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by kkdsafjid on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:14PM (#24520059)
People can now buy a haedset for 400$, rather than 100000$. That creates wealth.

That you personally care more about starting a business than about using a VR headset is not really relevant.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by nitrogen on Friday September 18, 2020 @05:36PM (#24522124)
It creates purchasing power only in VR, but that is not the same thing as wealth. I think it's important to keep that distinction. Wealth is more directly connected to financial stability than the price of specific technology products.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by kkdsafjid on Sunday September 20, 2020 @04:58AM (#24532803)
I don't think you have a proper concept of "wealth".
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by smolder on Friday September 18, 2020 @05:48PM (#24522220)
I appreciate that. Economy of scale makes it possible for really amazing products, concentrating the efforts of many, to be spread far and wide. That is a great thing, but there are very serious negatives that come along with that incentive to scale when it's not tempered. Hegemonic industries disproportionately empower owners over workers and limit opportunity, competition, and diversity to the point where the "best" products can shove anti-consumer features down people's throats. You get unsteerable inertia.

It's not cut-and-dry bad the way we do things, but there is a lack of balance. There's a lot wrong that could be better if it wasn't someone's perverse bread and butter. Extreme wealth and power inequality, whether for people or companies, don't make for a just, healthy society.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by kkdsafjid on Sunday September 20, 2020 @05:01AM (#24532812)
I appreciate your concerns, but I think they are mostly propaganda. Without the industries, there would be no jobs and no workers that could be deprived of their power.

If you want to strengthen workers, create more demand for jobs, so that workers have options. By for example creating a successful VR industry, you create demand for more jobs that haven't previously existed, thereby empowering workers. Somebody who has previously been exploited to manufacture fridges can now give their boss the finger and go manufacture chips for VR headsets instead. One easy way to create more jobs is to hire a cleaning person, by the way. Everybody who is concerned about "living wages" and things like that should start by hiring cleaners and possibly gardeners for their homes.

I personally think the whole concept of "workers" is bunk. Everybody is a free agent entering contracts with other market participants. That's it. "Worker" is a social construct, actually, a socialist construct. More so, being a "worker" does not sound like a very desirable state of affairs, so I think society should work towards getting rid of workers.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by mensetmanusman on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:00PM (#24519901)
Wait a minute, small successes still exist. There are orders of magnitudes more objects available to purchase than two decades ago.

The success of mega projects (iphone, etc.) creates a massive supply chain (mostly in China) of people putting things together in different ways to make random stuff.

E.g.: http://www.arcadeguns.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&p... I was just looking at this to turn our entire wall into a shooting arcade with Aimtrak lightguns to help kill time during the winter pandemic.

This was not possible ten years ago.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by dntrkv on Friday September 18, 2020 @01:20PM (#24519409)
There are plenty of places where "small success" still exists, usually in the form of tools that solve a problem for a specific trade/industry/etc. Though you won't see these small successes on HN.

As a society we need a way to determine where we invest resources. Some of those metrics you mentioned, though not perfect, are proxies for evaluating whether or not we should be investing more in certain tech. Otherwise, how would we determine where we should spend our limited resources?

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by paxys on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:05PM (#24520696)
Small successes haven't gone anywhere. However a system that needs billions of dollars in corporate funding worth of research to come into existence cannot be one by definition.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by criddell on Friday September 18, 2020 @04:56PM (#24521810)
What makes you think VR headsets take billions of dollars to launch? The first Oculus was a Kickstarter project.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by dougmwne on Friday September 18, 2020 @05:37PM (#24522135)
I think what Facebook and its vendors are building takes huge investment and lots of the best engineers you can hire. It's not just an lcd panel with lenses glued on, it's a room scale computer vision system, a VR optimised cpu/gpu with a suite of sensors, a VR software platform, controllers packed with sensors, computer vision tracking of controllers and hands, developer tools, a consumer app store, first party apps, a social VR metaverse, a telemetry system, a manufacturing and distribution supply chain, and a marketing push to get it into millions of hands (and it's also highly likely each headset is sold at a loss). I don't know how much money it takes to do all that, but I know you can't raise it on kickstarter.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by criddell on Saturday September 19, 2020 @08:49AM (#24527067)
Some of that might be difficult, but none of it is impossible and all of it is getting easier and easier. Some parts don't need to be invented or kickstarted because it exists already and is ready to go.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by paxys on Friday September 18, 2020 @05:40PM (#24522152)
It also used to cause motion sickness, had terrible resolution, lots of lag and no games/software that supported it. AR/VR as a whole has come a LONG way since then to make it an actual consumer product.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by kkdsafjid on Friday September 18, 2020 @01:08PM (#24519257)
Um, it is simply very expensive to create a good VR experience. It's not expensive BECAUSE of network effects and economies of scale and corporations. It is only POSSIBLE and AFFORDABLE because of those things.

For another example, to make a modern movie can cost hundreds of millions of dollars. It is only possible to make them because there are many people who will possibly watch it and pay for it. Nobody would be able to film the Lord of The Rings trilogy in their own basement just for their own entertainment. Not yet, anyway - tools of the future may make it possible ("GPT-300, make me a good movie based on the LOTR books").

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by ben_w on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:06PM (#24518510)
In my opinion it’s just like every other games console: an expensive toy that no one needs and lots of people buy anyway because it’s decent fun.
Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by Robotbeat on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:11PM (#24518588)
Meh, the resolution is super close to where it needs to be to read comfortably in the headset and do real work (and with wireless headsets with inside-out tracking, the annoying setup overhead is all but eliminated). That can make it a valuable peripheral, like a nice monitor without all the space requirements.

It won't likely ever be as big of a platform as smartphones are, though. So I overall agree with you.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by criddell on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:31PM (#24518833)
If the market is about 10 - 20 million users, that's plenty to support developers and future development. The investors who made big bets probably aren't going to see much of a return on that money, but that's okay. VC money is probably bad for the sector in the long run anyway.

Don't forget that the current generation of VR hardware has roots back to a Kickstarter project. Billions of dollars are investment aren't needed.

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by alasdair_ on Friday September 18, 2020 @04:24PM (#24521524)
> proof of concept games

Half Life: Alyx is a fantastic AAA game that in no way feels like a proof of concept. Strongly recommend playing it. (Beat Saber too)

Re:John Carmack’s presentation at Facebook Connect [video] by genghisjahn on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:24PM (#24518745)
Have you played Onward on the Quest?