The idea that having a multi-generational household means that the younger members haven't "grown up" and need to "learn to live on their own" is a completely manufactured attitude. I think many American families would have much stronger, more healthy inter-generational relationships if we lived together (at least for a bit) as adults. As it is now, most US kids leave home just when they're starting to be able to meaningfully contribute to the household as equals.
(Having said that, I definitely feel the pull of childhood and societal expectations. When I was a new adult I was thrilled to be out of my parents' house, and could never have imagined moving back there. I'm nearly 40 now, and thinking about the possibility of living in my parents' house during my 20s still feels weird to me.)
In my experience (talking to people from a variety of countries), most couples in their 20s/30s want their own place (even in the countries where it's not common). It seems it can even lead to happier intergenerational relationships when the roomate-type fights don't need to happen.
It would seem to me that it's most common in the US to move out because they can afford to... The US is just an incredibly rich place, even compared to much of western Europe (ex. the US has 40% more GDP per capita than France[1])
There are of course also family/social pressures in some places, but I really don't think it's the primary factor in the differences between many countries.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...
1. In the US, zoning laws discourage building things like the "mother in-law suite". These zoning laws were originally created as a way to get around federal laws prohibiting discrimination of race and sex by making it more difficult for people who can't afford housing to live within a certain neighborhood. Even if US residents wanted to add housing for some semblance of independence, zoning laws makes this difficult.
2. In the US, children are educated to become factory workers, and inegunity is deliberately suppressed. (See John Taylor Gotto's The Underground History of American Education).
3. When I look at Carol Sandford's work on regenerative business and regenerative life paradigms, I realized that people here in the US have been conditioned to think that being able to live independently is the mark of an adult. But that is an illusion. They are still largely treated like cogs, whether those are adults who are working full time jobs, or children in the compulsory school system.
4. In contrast, a regenerative business builds up the capability for each employee to figure out what they want to do that will make a meaningful contribution to the business and society in a way that aligns with the general direction the organization is going and the general strategy. Being able to do that gives a far greater sense of fulfillment, purpose, and agency to the people involved. It's as if every employee has the chance to be a mini startup within a larger organization, and the organization as a whole become more adaptive, resilient, without sacrificing being a responsible corporate citizen.
5. When I think about how that is applied to children, I am reminded by the NPR article about how indigenous families have children doing chores without resentment. (https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/06/09/6169288...) ... and then I realized that, it isn't really about chores. It is a way that children from indigenous families are encouraged to make meaningful contributions to family and community from a young age.
6. If your sense of self-worth and purpose is derived from making meaningful contributions to the family, community, and society, you're no longer pidgeonholed into the role of being a child. As such, I think a lot of the tensions and inter-generational drama we expect from adult children living with their parents is no longer there.
This times ten to a very meaningful exponent.
A large number of factors in society have combined against children being able to gradually assume the mantle of adulthood, gradually assuming responsibility and making greater and greater contributions to society as they grow.
It is obvious that this is in no way culturally sustainable.
This isn't something that you try to change the whole world. It is something that an individual makes the choice for themselves. It's something I'm in the process of implementing with my own children. That is one of the things I came up with when I ask myself, what meaningful thing do I want to contribute to the world? Your answer for yourself might be different.
Education in other countries is far more strict and regimented than the US. Especially Asia.
I've always thought the main driver for leaving home is instinctive, basically teenage rebelliousness. If there's cultural "programming" going on, it is just as likely to be in the societies that overcome these drives and keep children subservient to their parents.
That's correct. It gives some semblance of independence. My point with that one is that even if US residents were inclined to "cheat", current zoning laws in most municipalities makes building additions, or expanding to duplexes and triplexes illegal. Other things like, requiring onsite parking, setbacks, not allowing mixed-use zones impacts the ability to have affordable housing.
These laws are changing. Portland recently expanded the zoning laws to allow many of those. The activists who got that through campaigned under the banner of "walkability", but it was a lot more than that. Other cities may follow as they see how well Portland does.
> Education in other countries is far more strict and regimented than the US. Especially Asia.
I was born in Taiwan and was raised mostly in the US, so I have had a taste of what that strictness is. A lot of the structure that the US compulsory school system is based on, took their playbook from the way the Indian caste system educate their children. That educational system was there before the industrialization took that method for its own use.
To be clear, when we're talking about "education", we're talking about "compulsory education" that is part of the predominant paradigm of the modern world. Prior to the compulsory educational laws, the US had a literacy rate of 99%, in a nation of farmers. Kids were taught at home or in one-room schools. It was understood that the main purpose of education was not to create factory workers, but to have critically-thinking and informed citizens in a republic. The contrast between that and our current generation of algorithm-driven conspiracy theories is stark.
What I just talked about and more is in John Taylor Gatto's book.
There are alternative models showing up here. Alaska does not put all the kids all in the same grade. There are too many kids in the bush. Instead, kids learn each subject at the competency level independently. A kid might be at 8th grade reading level for example, and still working through 3rd grade math. Carol Sandford's work on education is much more radical -- no cirriculum, no teachers, no grading. Instead, capabilities like critical thinking are developed, and the kids are taught a framework in which they evaluate their contributions and actions. The kids decide what they want to contribute, and then they figure out how they are going to do it.
> I've always thought the main driver for leaving home is instinctive, basically teenage rebelliousness. If there's cultural "programming" going on, it is just as likely to be in the societies that overcome these drives and keep children subservient to their parents.
Adolescence is a distinct phase that is studied by psychologists during the modern era. It didn't really exist pre-industrialization, pre-compulsory schooling. It used to be, around the pre-teen age, kids were apprenticed and treated as inexperienced young adults. Some cultures had rites of passages that definitively marks when childhood ends, adulthood begins, in a way that the whole community acknowledged. I suppose in the modern era, the ability to be financially independent from the parents a sign of adulthood.
Compounding that is better nutrition, and perhaps, the way our food is grown (hormones), and artificial lighting all contributes towards an earlier age of pubescence. Modern kids' physical maturity are happening at a younger age at the same that the length of time before they are treated as a full adult gets extended.
That is complete bullshit. In 1870 there was a 20% illiteracy rate: https://nces.ed.gov/NAAL/lit_history.asp
I suggest you seriously reconsider your views on how the current education system works vs how it used to be back when people were on farms and learning in one room schoolhouses. It smells to me like you’ve been fed a line of bullshit by someone who has a beef with the current system and just wants to paint the ignorance-filled past with rose-colored enlightenment glasses. This society of highly literate, critical thinking farmers did not exist.
"The more recent focus on illiteracy has centered on functional literacy, which addresses the issue of whether a person's educational level is sufficient to function in a modern society. The earlier surveys of illiteracy examined a very fundamental level of reading and writing. The percent of illiteracy, according to earlier measurement methods, was less than 1 percent of persons 14 years old and over in 1979."
I don't know where that 99% figure that John Gatto Taylor came from. He did talk about a significantly lower literacy rate in the 1970s. I think if one were to use functional literacy as the metric, there would still be a similar decrease literacy rate.
And no, Taylor was not trying to paint the past with rose-colored glasses. Whether or not the farming society did a good enough job as citizens, the frame in which education was viewed was much different. The things from the past is not necessarily better, but neither are the way we are doing things right now.
See my comment above :)
Lol. Read Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith... having children was for the purpose of making you rich!
Also, that’s if you even made it to the age of 14. In 1870, survival rate of reaching to the age of 14 was about 30%
How does the survival rate of someone who has reached the age of 14 have an effect on literacy and citizenship?
> It was understood that the main purpose of education was not to create factory workers, but to have critically-thinking and informed citizens in a republic
Are you saying the seminal book in economics documenting at the time of the Declaration of Independence that having children in the Western world was to help you get rich (opposite was going on in China) was incorrect?
> How does the survival rate of someone who has reached the age of 14 have an effect on literacy and citizenship?
It doesn't, but when your literal survival is against the odds and you're task every day is to maintain sustenance, I'm not sure your comment about a whopping 99% rate literacy hold water.
Leaving aside whether I agreed with that point about children being there to make you rich (I don't), or whether everyone in America agreed with that (I doubt it), and we're just looking at the various colonists (excluding the Natives) making up the 13 colonies at the time of the Declaration of Independence, I don't know if that would be considered the seminal book to the point that it influenced how education is viewed. I see (at least according to Wikipedia), it had influenced Alexander Hamilton, but I also think Hamilton in many ways was ahead of his time. It is my understanding though, that those ideas become much more commonplace in the mid- and late 19th century.
> ... when your literal survival is against the odds and you're task every day is to maintain sustenance, I'm not sure your comment about a whopping 99% rate literacy hold water.
So I am to understand that you are saying, because conditions are so harsh, there is very little time to do things like studying or reading?
A curious thing happened in the Midwest in the early 1800s. Land was divided in a way where schools and colleges were deliberately set aside so that children would have access to it. For every N plots of land, there would be a school; for every M plots of land, there would be a college. I don't think any other region of the US was divided like this. The educated farmer, at least in the Midwest, is a thing.
That bit came from an article by someone observing that the Midwest seems prototypically boring, without characteristic. They were trying to explore just what makes the Midwest the "Midwest". The essay was not written as a criticism of the education system.
I'm not from the US but I'm just not sure I'm reading this right, you say these zoning laws are literally racist? And they're still around??
https://dsl.richmond.edu/panorama/redlining/#loc=14/34.021/-...
Note the description under population.
"Shifting or Infiltration: Negroes and Japanese increasingly numerous"
If a neighborhood had a couple of Black, Asian, or Mexican families banks weren't allowed to issue mortgages or other types of real estate loans. The US built a lot of suburbs post WWII those were restricted to white families only. Blacks, Asians, and Hispanics weren't allowed to buy and also were banned from receiving FHA Loans.
The current battle in the US politically is over whether to return to this state of affairs.
I have feeling you could make an argument that getting your own place is either an indirect or possible direct consequence of marketing. Lots of companies stand to make more money if they promote you moving out on your own. Ikea has at least one famous ad telling you to move out of your parent's house
Had the US not participated the suburban American dream, the excess WWII capacity would be wasted instead of being redirected to home construction, auto manufacturing, and all manner of new industry. And we would’ve plunged into yet another depression.
No one makes compromises unless they have to, and unless you have a big soundproof house, two or more couples living together are going to bump into each other.
I see older parents moving back in with kids due to declining health, but otherwise the consensus seems to be that having grandparents nearby in a separate home is ideal.
However, children of immigrants are especially keen to assimilate into the receiving culture, so much so that they often go beyond what natives do. For immigrants and their children, a clash of cultural values may be a larger driving factor than what's the natural for people in general.
The above might not apply if you have a large enough space with sufficient sound proofing and multiple kitchens, but that's not the reality for most people. There are positives, but my observations suggest that the biggest factor in determining if you live in an intergenerational household is whether or not children and the parents can both afford to live in different houses.
On the first point, from what I've seen, there is certainly a lot of conflict if intergenerational couples stay together under the same roof for prolonged periods of time, whether it's the parents living with the kids or the other way around. For short periods of time, it definitely works out positively.
I would argue that it's less because of wealth or even expenses, and moreso because of cultural norms, that children tend to stay with their parents for longer in Europe. I don't know if this comes across as anecdotal, but my SO's parents often requested her to choose a medical university closer to home, and even suggested we stay with them, even though they are extremely affluent and comfortable. Even now, after living separately in another city, her parents and relatives often stop by to check up and stay for a couple of days very often. Of course, the young will always prefer to move apart to retain some privacy, especially once the kids arrive. Obviously there's the shadow of European expenses hanging over everyone's heads.
Personally I have healthy 6000km between myself and the parents. To be honest something like the 300km we had a some point is nicer and for taking care if the kids from time to time something like a few kilometers is best but same houseld is just stupid and I have yet to meet someone (even Asians) that will willingly do that for longer than necessary if they can help it. If they do it, it's for one of the reasons stated above like a Vietnamese colleague who did move back in with her mum for like a half year while trying to find a new place. They're close but same household is just way too close.
In the context of the "housing affordability crisis", it makes that part of the context that much more interesting.
That's really depressing. I'm sorry your social circle has such poor family dynamics. The majority of inter-generational families I know quite like the arrangement. Grandparents love having grand kids around, parents enjoy the extra help of the grandparents, meals are a lot more fun, etc.
There's more to it than just learning to live on your own. In the US, we value individuality above all else. People who never move out and forge their own path in life are far less likely to find out who they really are and what they really want out of life. Whether you're aware of it or not, staying so closely attached to your family can massively stunt personal growth. You are constantly reminded of who and what you are "expected" to be, rather than defining that for yourself. You can see this very clearly by going back to your hometown and talking to the people who never left. Sure there's value in the stability and comfort of that life, but you lose out on the opportunity to truly express yourself and be who you want to be.
I moved back to my hometown after finishing college (in Germany!) and went to work at the family business. I was there for 4 years, and miserable for 3 of them. I finally told my dad that I didn't want to work there anymore, and it hurt his feelings for sure, but the last 10 years have been much better for me.
At the same time, I still live in my hometown and I find that the "get out" mentality in high school was massively overhyped. I like it here. My younger brother eventually went to work for my dad, and he seems to like it.
I'm just trying to say that just because you believe living with your parents would stunt your personal growth, doesn't mean that your neighbor can't live a perfectly happy and successful life in that situation.
My parents are good people, there was nothing wrong with my home environment. But it's more important that youth learn to act like independent adults and take responsibility for their own lives. Staying at home too long causes learned helplessness. When there's no one around to help it's sink or swim.
It might not be the same for everyone, but for me, there was a definite pride in being independent, making my own decisions and having nobody to answer to but myself.
I’m sure most 13 year olds plead with their parents to take them certain places or buy them certain things (e.g. specific food and clothes, etc.), and while I’ve never been to boarding school, I imagine you have to figure out how to get things for yourself.
The point is taken re: not being “sink or swim” (you won’t be left on a ditch on the side of the road), but surely it’s obvious that more independence is needed living without a primary caregiver in the same home.
The adults should be ensuring you don't grievously injure or harm yourself, and that you're returned in same/better condition.
You can always ring up your parents and ask for stuff, it's not like you are adopted by the school and lose all contact with your parents, nor are you earning a wage at 13 going to boarding school.
Lots of kids going to public school and/or with rough home lives learn "sink or swim" just as well or better than someone going to boarding school. I just found it odd to say you're learning to "sink or swim" when you have so many safety nets there to catch you if you did sink/fall.
Not only is there no multi-gen homes in our area (exurb an hour away from a major city) but it's difficult to find a layout where a part of the house can be a mini apartment or her own personal area. It seems like more basements are finished now and some of the design decisions have been quite odd to say the least.
Worst of all is that we're not allowed to buy some land and throw a small structure or trailer/rv on it for her. Even though it's for family it's not allowed as it could be rented out in the future.
The entire process has been stressful and aggravating, and is made worse by everyone sharing the same space working and going to school.
So, without making any judgements about how people want to live their lives, I think it is a negative for the US that more young people are living at home.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_patt...
Many more regions besides England have also shown this pattern for centuries, but those are mostly within northwestern Europe to the west and north of the Hajnal line.
How do you have a grown up, likely physical, relationship with your partner... when your parents are sharing the same rooms? Do you just hide in your bedroom the whole time?
How do you develop your own relationships and life and way of doing things and way of raising your children, inside someone else's house? I can't understand that but I'm open to hearing about how.
Regarding your second point, I'd like to point out your particular phrasing which makes clear your point of view, that you consider a multi-generational house "someone else's house". It would be your home that you are living in, even if it is not your name on the deed or rental agreement. Now, whether you can develop your own relationships and life and way of doing things has to be independent of whether you are living with family. For every person that is an example that living with family is a burden, there surely is another example where it is a benefit. The growth in your relationship with your family can be hindered or accelerated by your time with them, I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer to that.
In my experience what happens is that the "family" raises the children.
In intergenerational households - in Asian cultures at least - it is still generally the older generations calling the shots, in patriarchy/matriarchy sense. In practical terms it depends on how much financial power each generation holds that determines how much say they have. But in Asian cultures age do grant at least some implicit authority.
Given the above cultural context, tensions can arise if the way of living/child-raising are not aligned. I would say this resolves how normal conflicts get resolved. Those who have the most time and influence usually win out. Although culturally people understand they have to pick their battles for the benefit of daily harmony.
I think a way to think about how the living arrangement works that may be more relatable is to think about a multi-generational family business. If you watch shows like Chef's Table there are stories were children take over the family's business by more-or-less following in a prescribed footpath, while others conflict and find that they have to strike out on their own.
On a day to day basis though, it's just like living in a very close knit community - you could say a family.
I think this is the simplest answer to why most people are opposed to it - they fundamentally don’t want anyone else calling the shots on their lives to any extent.
The difference is the prudishness of US culture. Those couples are living life as a couple. In a US household they would be treated as kids, with many parents not allowing them to even share a room.
I don't like what the title tries to suggest that living with your parents is something wrong/abnormal?
Why is that? I understand for many it is not a choice, but it doesn't necessarily meaning people are suffering as a result.
There has been golden eras, usually from expansion or industrialization where youths could acquire their own places relatively young. But it doesn't scale forever.
Is there any reason to believe this is due to a cultural shift amongst Americans? I don't believe it is controversial that the young have been the most negatively impacted by rising education and housing costs, as well as their demographic being the most heavily impacted by the Covid-19 pandemic. (is it?)
The implication here is that more young adults are staying at home, not because they want to, but rather because they cannot afford to leave (or in some cases, as the article mentions, because it is better than being isolated at home alone). I hope you agree that this is an important distinction.
To the degree that there's a stigma associated with adults living with their parents in the US, the stigma comes more from being the sort of person who would want to live with their parents when they could afford to be on their own. That's the stigma. It's not a stigma about poverty, it's a stigma about someone who would want a more sheltered and less independent life, and a stigma about someone who wouldn't get seriously annoyed at having their family around 24/7. Those are both pretty alien concepts to a lot of people in the US. There's also the rule of thumb that the #1 way to keep a family together and loving each other and constructively involved in each other's lives is to not see each other every day. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, and all that.
But like you said, this is independent of it being good or bad or right or wrong, it's really just cultural context, but that's the cultural context.
Usually any mention of living with your parents implies being lazy ( the whole "neckbeard living in their parent's basement" stereotype ) unless you qualify it with "but I pay rent". If you pay rent then it appears more like you can support yourself and still not relying on mom/dad to pay your way even in adulthood.
The title doesn't suggest anything, it just states an objective fact.
[p.s. one fine day, the internets will unequivocaly sing the same song, with not a single person suffering from misunderstandings. That fine day, HN will do away with anonymous downvotes, since we will be in a state of perfect harmony.]
After graduating college and finding a good job, he went to get a roommate and move out. His parents were horrified. "Why are you going to move out of your family's house so you can pay money to live with strangers you found on the internet?".
At first we all laughed because it seemed like a case of immigrant parents no getting how things worked here, but the more we all thought about it, the more the parents seemed to make an excellent point, and one none of us had really considered.
Not sure when families living together became a sign of failure rather than a sign of a close family.
I moved back in with my Dad with my husband. I'm 32, hubby is 30. He had two strokes and my little sister didn't want to be the only one nearby. It's been 6 months. Is it the easiest? No. But it's amazing to have this day-in-day-out time with my Dad again after not having lived at home for years.
My older sister moved back in with her husband and two kids for 2 months as she studied for her medical school USMLE exams so she could take advantage of the free baby-sitting.
Neither my sister's family or my own would've made this decision without the pandemic. My husband and I were both pushed remote (same salary) and my sister's child care plans went up in smoke.
While 2020 has been shit, moving home in some cases isn't an indicator of a problem. It's just a smart reaction to the new reality of working from home.
> I'm a dad who is happy to have his daughter and fiancé living with me. They pay the utilities and make me nice meals, and it makes it a lot less lonely here. ... I like the multi-generational thing. I know it won't last forever, but it makes life better for now.
It's so easy to get into that cold statistical mindset about these large-scale trends, but it's good to remember that these statistics are the aggregation of a large number of very human stories.