News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by ballenf on Friday August 28, 2020 @05:23PM (#24310124)
Have a friend who lost more than $12k in the process of buying a house. Scammers sent the wiring instructions a few hours before the legit closing attorney sent the real instructions. The email looked exactly right except for a minor change to the domain name from address.

After one hour, wire transfers sent in error are no more recoverable than crypto.

How the thieves knew so much about the process and timing is supposedly being investigated, but no one is holding out much hope. And the attorneys have a strong incentive to cover up any evidence of intrusion on their side, assuming it was their infrastructure infiltrated.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by Waterluvian on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:56PM (#24311306)
I wanted it to be convenient and electronic transfer but my lawyer said I’m simply not allowed to. I had to get cheques from my banks and hand deliver them to the lawyer’s office.

I’m not sure I fully understand, in retrospect, the desire to shave off inconvenient corners for large life events you do so rarely. I think there’s real wisdom in some of these things being so slow and old school.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by creato on Friday August 28, 2020 @08:31PM (#24312086)
This reasoning also (especially?) applies to voting. Trying to make voting "efficient" is not worth it when we do it rarely and we have not had a problem just getting people to count ballots manually.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by nend on Friday August 28, 2020 @09:32PM (#24312485)
This is a really bad comparison. Making it easier to vote has a big affect on how many people vote.

Requiring a hand delivered check vs wire transfer to buy house has a minimal effect on how many people buy a house.

Plus, the US has elections far more frequently than how frequently an average person buys a house.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by techsupporter on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:32PM (#24312848)
> Making it easier to vote has a big affect on how many people vote.

I think OP meant "efficient" as in "efficient for the people doing the counting." In this case, efficient is not the same as easy. It's efficient to count a bunch of ballots by having people enter their choices directly into a bunch of counting computers that are networked to a central counting computer.

It's easy to vote by getting a ballot (by mail or in person), marking it, and dropping it into a box. But counting those votes is not efficient, or at least not fast.

I'm with you; I want the latter, not the former.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by devin on Saturday August 29, 2020 @01:06AM (#24313717)
I find myself commenting on this more and more often, but check out what freeandfair.us is doing in the voting space.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by Melting_Harps on Saturday August 29, 2020 @02:54AM (#24314220)
> This reasoning also (especially?) applies to voting. Trying to make voting "efficient" is not worth it when we do it rarely and we have not had a problem just getting people to count ballots manually.

THat's a very rose-colored view on voting, one that conflicts with amount of recounts and outright election fraud that has taken place just in my lifetime. Not to mention the outright denial of some to candidates to attend or speak at conventions and caucuses or having heir delegates ignored entirely.

Ethereum was recently, and succinctly described to be the following by Udi Wertheimer:

“I think that Ethereum is a convoluted mess and I don’t know what it’s good for but fine; other people like it. Good for them.”

That pretty much sums up my perception, at first it was supposed to be a global computer, which made no sense to me... then it was THE Blockchain upon which smart contracts could be created, entirely ignoring Bitcoin's could do that multi-sig txs or nLock. But would facilaite things like smart-contracts for hotels and car rentals, then that faded into obscurity when they knew it was not practical at all given its limitations. Then when Crypto Kitties fad came on I stopped attending the local meetups entirely as I couldn't take them serious anymore.

I was always the 'Bitcoin maximalist' at those events, and while I was using their meetups as a way to grasp why Ethereum even mattered as I was at IBM's Blockchain division where they were openly pushing for ETH based solutions and using an equally complicated things as Solidity was when they mandated everything be done in Hyperledger Fabric.

Ultimately, I realized it was complexity for complexity's sake driven by people who really don't understand this technology at all, and did so with no real reason to justify it other than it fit with the 'it isn't Bitcoin, its this other thing' narrative. IBM really dropped the ball on their advantage to capitalize on the use of this tech to many of its multinational customers, many who seemed eager to explore the possibilities, as a result of this.

I still have some screen caps from the internal study material from the exams and other internal material on a phone somewhere that just focused on how Bitcoin was nothing more than digital currency for criminals online. And how Ripple and Ethereum were some how immune to that with no real explanation to anyone who actually understood the technology [1].

To this day I'm still baffled how anything but greed explains how Vitalik, a former member of Unsystem, was the guy behind this and the subsequent clusterfuck that is ETH/Classic/DAO whatever it wants to call itself.

I kind of wished it had all been a big prank to transfer funds from stupid investors and Putin who were mesmerized by empty claims and buzzwords to fund Unsystem's loftier goals for privacy on Bitcoin but after the DAO I was pretty convinced it was never going to happen. Crypto Kitties made me realize that even they had no idea what they were really building.

1: https://thexrpdaily.com/2020/01/20/ibm-said-ripple-is-unique...

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by aidos on Saturday August 29, 2020 @03:17AM (#24314330)
Not sure if it’s general but here in the UK our lawyer made us come in to collect the bank account number and were very explicit about never using other details because of this scam.

I saw a variation of it first hand at a company I once worked at. The scammers gained access to the lobby of the building, removed the post and replaced it with invoices with different bank account details on.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by pkilgore on Friday August 28, 2020 @08:18PM (#24311979)
Interestingly, property is the slowest and old-schoolest of all the branches of law. Some systems of deeds and recorders have existed for hundreds of years.

As an attorney I used to look at a lot of boilerplate skeptically but is a RE attorney told me I had to sign in the presence of a clergy, my mother and law, and three local stray dogs I'm marching my butt to a pet store and making some calls without a question.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by boring_twenties on Friday August 28, 2020 @09:47PM (#24312572)
As an attorney, you should know to read your contracts more carefully :) nothing in a pet store should qualify as a "stray dog," so is the whole thing null and void now?
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by pkilgore on Sunday August 30, 2020 @03:02PM (#24325047)
To buy treats, to lure in said strays :-)
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by taneq on Friday August 28, 2020 @08:56PM (#24312255)
> I’m not sure I fully understand, in retrospect, the desire to shave off inconvenient corners for large life events you do so rarely.

Same. I’ve seen people but one car over another just because it was available nearby instead of a half hour bus ride away. How many times in your life do you buy a car that an extra half hour is significant?

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by kbenson on Friday August 28, 2020 @09:35PM (#24312500)
For this, I think it also matters how people view the car, the class of car, and the cost of waiting or goi g somewhere else.

If you're buying a cheap car to get you from point a to point b and you don't care about amenities, what does it matter? Will that civic the next town over make you much happier than the corolla in front of you (or vice versa, or whatever)? Some people just don't care about cars, or at least not for the type of car they are buying for that use at that point in their life.

Nobody can care about everything all the time, and sometimes people just decide not to sweat the things other people think are vitally important because they have other stuff they care more about.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by Waterluvian on Saturday August 29, 2020 @12:06AM (#24313391)
I was so picky and spent months looking for my car. To the point the dealers were getting a bit irritated. When I finally picked I was asked what colour. “Don’t care. What do you have on the lot?”
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by taneq on Saturday August 29, 2020 @08:25AM (#24315617)
True, if you really don't care at all then just buy the closest one. But in my (limited) experience with buying cars, once you figure out what will meet your needs, there's usually a significant value difference between the available vehicles and it seems silly to give up several thousand dollars worth of vehicle for the sake of one slightly longer journey.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by kbenson on Saturday August 29, 2020 @03:00PM (#24318583)
Sometimes. For middle-of-the road needs and reliability, it's hard to go wrong with Honda or Toyota, and at the lowest level of vehicle that only leaves you a couple choices. If I was in that position and didn't know a lot about cars, I might just go to whichever dealership was closest that had one, test drive what they had, and if nothing really negative jumped out, buy it.

The more money you're willing to spend the more good choices there are at that level though, so this becomes harder to do when not operating at the lowest cost tier of cars.

This does change a did if people are willing to consider less traditional choices, like smart cars.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by bawolff on Friday August 28, 2020 @09:10PM (#24312352)
What's so inconvinent about that? I assume you have to go into the lawyer's office anyways. A cheque is just a signed document telling your bank to transfer the money-if you're buying a house then a cheque is the least of the things you're going to have to sign. Was it just a normal cheque? (Not a certified cheque or money order, or anything special) if so many people will already have them on hand.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by Waterluvian on Saturday August 29, 2020 @12:07AM (#24313406)
For $100k it had to be certified. And was a bunch of hoops to jump through to get them. Took like a week.

Mind you this is Canada so things are likely different.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by ckdarby on Saturday August 29, 2020 @10:40AM (#24316414)
Fellow Canadian here, I did not have this experience.

The certified cheque was done in 20 minutes. All that was required was two pieces of photo id, producing the debit card and entering my pin to access the account.

This wasn't even my "home" branch, zero prior relationship with this branch and I walked into a random one on my way to work.

I'm guessing there are hoops to jump through if you're clearing out your entire bank account because it could be grounds of suspicious activity by the branch manager.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by sneak on Friday August 28, 2020 @09:53PM (#24312604)
This is an artifact of insecure communications systems and poor operational security. Making people shuffle physical paper around, especially considering things like pandemics and climate change, is a temporary workaround, not a long-term solution.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by tsimionescu on Saturday August 29, 2020 @03:30AM (#24314390)
I think the most important point is that it's slow, it involves many people, and leaves a physical trail. These are all advantages for any kind of ability to prevent or recover from fraud or simple mistakes.

Perhaps you can build a similar electronic system, but if one of the purposes is to make it slow and make it involve lots of manual confirmations, is there really a purpose to it? It's going to be much more complex than the paper system (replacing physical properties like uniqueness with brittle/complex cryptographic versions). Complexity always begets bugs.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by hibbelig on Saturday August 29, 2020 @09:55AM (#24316116)
Given that it had been working this way for hundreds of years, how is it temporary?
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by sneak on Saturday August 29, 2020 @10:14AM (#24316246)
I imagine, barring an extinction event, that humans will be using digital communications systems and cryptography for many tens of thousands of years.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by nyanpasu64 on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:08PM (#24310701)
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/05/homebuyers-are-falling-for-t...

> Here’s how these scams usually go down: A thief hacks into a real estate or title company’s computer system and then studies the transactions, from the language used to the format of the wiring instructions. When the scammer strikes, he or she will often pose as someone from the real estate or titling company to instruct the buyer to wire funds to them.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by dheera on Friday August 28, 2020 @07:57PM (#24311825)
Can't this be avoided simply by making sure the property owner gives you wiring instructions in person?
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by treis on Friday August 28, 2020 @09:41PM (#24312525)
You aren't (usually) wiring the money to the property owner. It goes to the title or escrow company processing the transaction. They get the money, execute the paperwork, and then transfer the money to the owner after everything is squared away.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by dheera on Saturday August 29, 2020 @01:13AM (#24313764)
What is the incentive to use an escrow instead of dealing with the owner directly? How do I know the escrow won't run away like a crow with my money and the house?
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by rebuilder on Saturday August 29, 2020 @01:43AM (#24313905)
The escrow company is supposed to be more reputable than the owner. They also handle this type of transaction, and know how to get it done properly, how to check the seller actually owns the house etc.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by treis on Saturday August 29, 2020 @10:43AM (#24316428)
Not all the money goes to the home owner. Typically some goes to the bank for the mortgage, some to the buyers agent, some to the seller's agent, some to taxes/fees, and so on. The escrow/title company calculates all of this and ensures everyone gets their money.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by sukilot on Saturday August 29, 2020 @11:07AM (#24316577)
It's avoided by the companies involved taking 5 minutes to talk to each other when comuniticating instructions, and then holding the funds in escrow for a day before disbursing them.

But they don't care and they are not computer literate.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by chii on Friday August 28, 2020 @08:04PM (#24311880)
or use public key cryptography, and have a verification signature that can only be signed by knowing a secret.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by lolinder on Friday August 28, 2020 @08:56PM (#24312257)
The scam here relies on someone having compromised the network of the company sending the instructions. In that situation, wouldn't you have to assume the intruder found the secret key?
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by sukilot on Saturday August 29, 2020 @11:09AM (#24316590)
The scam relies on absolutely insane system of financial institutions sending critical key information over email, instead of any controlled channel.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by lolinder on Saturday August 29, 2020 @08:30PM (#24320392)
I'm not saying that cryptography wouldn't help in general, or that it's not incredibly stupid that we're not using it. What I'm saying is you can't just slap crypto on this particular scam to make it go away. These people have insider access to the machines that would likely be used to sign the email. If that is the threat model, it's a mistake to trust anything not delivered in person, signed or not.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by VonGuard on Friday August 28, 2020 @08:17PM (#24311977)
Hey you know that and we know that, but the real estate industry is barely able to handle email, let alone secure it.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by Ar-Curunir on Friday August 28, 2020 @08:20PM (#24312001)
lol yes, because signed and encrypted email hasn't been tried.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by drfuchs on Saturday August 29, 2020 @07:42AM (#24315401)
In the US at least, you typically don’t even meet the owner. (Never mind that it’s not easy to make sure you’re paying the real owner without the aid of the various intermediaries. Nolo Press has good books about buying and selling homes and all the potential pitfalls involved.)
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by est31 on Friday August 28, 2020 @05:56PM (#24310514)
> After one hour, wire transfers sent in error are no more recoverable than crypto.

The receiver account can still be seized by government institutions though, something much harder with cryptocurrencies.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by koonsolo on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:12PM (#24310760)
You would think, but in all scammer cases that I heard, they are able to get their money out.

I really don't get it, because I have to provide my ID every year or so for verification. I really don't get how these scammer can get away with that, but obviously every time.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by novok on Friday August 28, 2020 @07:13PM (#24311471)
Its easy to get fake ids that look very real (ask a local 20 year old).

Also you often do not even need to take a picture of an ID to open an account online, just have the info of an identity that you steal. After that, you get an atm card, wear a covid mask, shades and hat, call to raise the limit and take it out asap.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by boring_twenties on Friday August 28, 2020 @09:54PM (#24312609)
Which banks allow non-trivial ATM withdraw limits?

My experience with 4 different banks:

1. Limit of $500 cannot be changed

2. Limit raised to $1,100 over the phone; apparently if I show up at a branch and bring my first born, I can get it as high as $1,500.

3. Limit of $500 suddenly reduced to $200 (!) with the option to call in and raise it to $400.

4. Limit raised to $2,000. Some years later, suddenly reduced to $1,000. Haven't bothered looking into this yet.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by siberianbear on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:12PM (#24313057)
Fidelity Investments brokerage and cash management accounts have a limit of $1000 a day, and I have four of them, so I can get $4000.

I recently learned that some Chase Bank ATMs inside branches used with Chase ATM cards can get $3000 in one transaction. I did it the first time a few days ago.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by boring_twenties on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:28PM (#24313151)
Good to know, thanks. Fidelity is actually my example #1. I've been told multiple times on the phone it can't be changed from $500, but that was years ago. Will try again.

Back to the topic, we're up to $3-4k now which is more than I thought, but still not enough to pull off this $12k scam.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by siberianbear on Saturday August 29, 2020 @03:17PM (#24318709)
Fidelity outsources their debit card servicing. A Fidelity rep told me that the cap is set per customer, and the withdrawal limit is set depending on the account balance and history with that customer. They told me that I could request a higher withdrawal limit if I wished to do so, and they may or may not approve it.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by boring_twenties on Sunday August 30, 2020 @02:01AM (#24321667)
Interesting, I didn't think it was per-customer. At the time these conversations happened, I had plenty of money, most of it in my Fidelity account.

They could have saved a lot of money on ATM fees (which they always refund me) by increasing my limit, that's for sure.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by lowdose on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:27PM (#24313144)
Any particular reason you need so much cash on hand?
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by boring_twenties on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:31PM (#24313169)
You never know when a good poker game will break out.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by siberianbear on Saturday August 29, 2020 @03:15PM (#24318692)
I travel a lot, and sometimes often to "emerging economies". Cash is always king, especially when your American bank puts yet another suspected fraud alert on your card...
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by bartvk on Saturday August 29, 2020 @10:29AM (#24316342)
What comes to my mind, is when you buy a boat or a motor second hand.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by novok on Saturday August 29, 2020 @10:27PM (#24320870)
Rich people banks, like schwab.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by jetzzz on Saturday August 29, 2020 @07:12AM (#24315277)
They can use an account registered for a homeless person who has happily provided an ID in exchange for a small amount of money.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by cutemonster on Saturday August 29, 2020 @02:12PM (#24318173)
What's the next step, after the stolen money has landed in the homeless persons account?
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by dexen on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:33PM (#24311032)
>The receiver account can still be seized by government institutions

That is hardly an advantage for the victim. Come to think of it, that's a (rare but realistic) threat for normal, licit commerce.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by wins32767 on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:56PM (#24311310)
What do you think the government does with the money? Keep it?
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by sukilot on Saturday August 29, 2020 @11:11AM (#24316603)
It costs you more to do the work to recover your money than you get back. The government's contribution is only the general deterrence, which has no effect to attackers from hostile nations.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by api on Friday August 28, 2020 @05:55PM (#24310503)
Is it just me or is there fantastically more fraud these days than a decade or two ago? Any transaction feels like walking around in northern Canada during black fly season.

I receive several cold scam calls per day and I’ve known people who have done things like purchase a home and been inundated by fake calls from “the underwriter” and other scams.

Is there no mail and telemarketing fraud enforcement any more?

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by hnick on Saturday August 29, 2020 @12:32AM (#24313551)
We're definitely getting more of the Chinese robocalls and other SMS spam here in Australia too. I think there are two sides to it: scammers like everyone else are feeling the pinch from reduced economic activity, and desperate people are easier to scam.

A lot of scams do feel like low hanging fruit that would be easy to track down. I think there is a lack of will and capability for resolving "small" scams of up to a few thousand dollars which can be crippling for individuals.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by ikiris on Friday August 28, 2020 @07:50PM (#24311765)
I wonder what changed in global cyber security and law enforcement during this time window.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by sukilot on Saturday August 29, 2020 @11:12AM (#24316617)
In 1994 the Internet became widely available, exposing you to attack from 6billion people.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by pmarreck on Friday August 28, 2020 @09:09PM (#24312340)
Imagine a world with way less wealth inequality
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by hbosch on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:00PM (#24310589)
When we bought our house last year, the packet came with a big, bright red page (as well as a verbal warning from our loan officer) to look out for these scams.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by dkarl on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:07PM (#24310694)
Same for me a year ago, and they called early in the morning on the day of closing to repeat the warning. It wasn't even mentioned when I closed on a house seven years ago.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by philjohn on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:28PM (#24310972)
I tend to phone people I'm making transfers to, where they've emailed or otherwise electronically sent the sort code and account number, to verify. Adds a couple of minutes, but could save tens of thousands.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by sneak on Friday August 28, 2020 @09:57PM (#24312623)
This is possible because the telephone network is (more) secured, in the same way email and other forms could be, but aren’t.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by stjohnswarts on Friday August 28, 2020 @07:47PM (#24311750)
Similar, my old and jaded real estate agent said "don't trust this computer shit, call me or call the loan people on anything involving money or signing something"
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by anamexis on Friday August 28, 2020 @07:21PM (#24311547)
Likewise. Ours instructed us to look up the title agency in the phone book, call that number, and verify the wire details before we did it.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by rstuart4133 on Sunday August 30, 2020 @12:20AM (#24321335)
> Scammers sent the wiring instructions a few hours before the legit closing attorney sent the real instructions.

In my view, this mess is temporary. It's caused by a partial transition from an old system (manual via solicitors, cheques, and bank managers) to a new one. The old one was pretty reliable, but involved a lot of expensive people. The new one is like operating in the matrix. When communications happens electronically, the checks built into the old system break down and it's near impossible for a human to know if a electronic message is real.

It is not near impossible for a computer to know of course. A computer validate a series of cryptographic assertions anchored at the titles office relaying what bank to credit, and it can do with far greater accuracy than the old "human relationship" system, and it can do it in factions of second. But right now we use the new system to communicate because it self evidently more efficient to do so, and still use the checks from the old system to validate those communications.

You see this all the time. Phishing fraud, where accounts are sent fake invoices from what appears to be a valid supplier is essentially the same thing - humans using eyeballs to verify an electronic document is valid (which is essentially impossible), as opposed the supplier just signing it and the bank account details it contains.

It's almost comically bad. I was asked by the accounting section of one of the top computer contracting organisations to verify I controlled another bank account. They demanded a bank statement to prove it. Problem: the details on the bank statement were inaccurate. I raised a ticket with the bank to get it fixed, but as seems to happen depressingly often the bank screwed it up. So in the I downloaded PDF, edited it, rendered it to TIFF, added noise, and sent it. It was accepted of course.

Right now most organisations are wide to being exploited because they are communicating electronically, and using eyeballs to validate the result. They seem oblivious to the idea The Matrix wasn't just a move, it was a prophecy. And now the future it prophecised has arrived.

It will change, but only after quite a few companies have been ripped a new one.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by DougBTX on Saturday August 29, 2020 @03:06AM (#24314272)
That scam relies on the purchaser sending the full payment almost as soon as the bank transfer details have been sent to them, otherwise they’ll see the legit details too.

When I’ve bought residential property in the past, there have always been various fees to pay in advance, using the same bank details. So when it comes to the final big payment, I’ll have already had the bank details for weeks, and have already used them to send previous payments. Double checking the payment instructions by phone just before making the payment helps too, as that allows confirming the account and the final amount.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by porcine-flight on Saturday August 29, 2020 @12:58AM (#24313681)
This problem can be avoided if the parties use digital signatures and require a phone call for final confirmation of the instructions.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by sukilot on Saturday August 29, 2020 @11:18AM (#24316658)
That requires the escrow companies hire people who understand technology instead of just sales.

It's a principal-agemt problem. Real estate agents hire their friends to do escrow.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by pmarreck on Friday August 28, 2020 @09:08PM (#24312331)
I mean... this is the most literal definition of "man in the middle attack" you can get.

And we already know the solutions to that

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by nodesocket on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:06PM (#24310673)
I am closing on a house, and this is quite terrifying. How in the world did the scammers know all the exact details of the house? I am guessing the $12k was good faith money? In my case, I was able to write a plain old check for my good faith money.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by ballenf on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:22PM (#24310898)
It was the down payment on the house in this case. And was actually a lot more than $12k. It has to be a wire transfer since checks take so long to clear and the title can't transfer with that uncertainty.

My advice to anyone buying or selling is to get the attorney's phone number from a known good source in advance, and call them to verify the wiring instructions before submitting. Also compare the bank account name down to the character with the real one (although I don't know how hard it is fake this). Your bank should read off the bank account info you're sending to before you give the confirmation to proceed.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by Reelin on Saturday August 29, 2020 @04:31AM (#24314630)
> It has to be a wire transfer since checks take so long to clear and the title can't transfer with that uncertainty.

Why was an escrow service not an option?

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by sukilot on Saturday August 29, 2020 @11:22AM (#24316682)
Escrow is an option. They require wires.

Checks can be uncleared long after they clear (another common scam, since checks have no security model), so nobody sane accepts checks from stranges for large numbers.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by CobrastanJorji on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:45PM (#24311180)
My title company gave us all of the relevant information and account numbers in person on paper and made us sign documents agreeing that we were warned not to trust any information sent via email, web, or phone. You should expect the same.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by sukilot on Saturday August 29, 2020 @11:23AM (#24316698)
Most title companies send those warnings via email. "Don't trust email from anyone but me." It's insane.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by mst on Saturday August 29, 2020 @11:44AM (#24316863)
Last time I had to wire a large amount of money I used paypal's verification trick - first sent a small amount of money and then phoned the person on the other side of the transaction and asked them to tell me how much money I'd sent them, and only once they'd confirmed that trusted the information to send the balance.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by heavyset_go on Friday August 28, 2020 @09:31PM (#24312477)
I could imagine a MiTM scam where the scammer relists the owner's property, and provides the mark with the scammer's email, phone number, mailing address etc.

Depending on how sophisticated the scammer is, the MiTM between communication can be transparent to the victim.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by sukilot on Saturday August 29, 2020 @11:50AM (#24316909)
This is very common on Craigslist. Scammers offer arbitrary vacant properties for rent and disappear after collecting deposit and first month's rent.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by eli on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:33PM (#24313189)
No need to be terrified, lots of ways to confirm the wire instructions are legit. Calling a known good phone number or going to the title company in person.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by raverbashing on Saturday August 29, 2020 @01:31AM (#24313846)
Well, I'm not sure why transfers are not checked against the name, especially for high value ones

This is fraud. It might not be recoverable immediately but it merits a police report. And maybe with that report you can have the receiving bank take action

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by sukilot on Saturday August 29, 2020 @11:19AM (#24316664)
The receiving bank is in Russia or somewhere.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by RhodesianHunter on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:41PM (#24313245)
For anyone interested, a friend of mine works on a technical solution to this exact scam.

https://certifid.com/

No affiliation besides having a friend who works there.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by sukilot on Saturday August 29, 2020 @11:17AM (#24316648)
That doesn't help. The scammer will just imitate certified instead of the escrow company.

And it's yet another party that can get hacked.

The solution is for the parties to talk too each other to verify their relationships, instead of replacing all the trusted people by random websites.

Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by RhodesianHunter on Wednesday September 02, 2020 @12:55PM (#24355132)
It's generally considered useful to actually look at how a thing works before disparaging it counter-factually.
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by sonicggg on Saturday August 29, 2020 @12:38PM (#24317318)
Whenever I send a wire, I have to prove the name of recipient, that being a company or a person. Why would I wire it to an unrecognised name?
Re:Ethereum Is a Dark Forest by Aeolun on Saturday August 29, 2020 @06:38AM (#24315173)
That makes no sense, unless the money has been taken out of the target account in physical form.