Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large carnivores

Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by Waterluvian on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:05PM (#24188512)

Tangentially related: fighter jets do this too.

Interesting how universal these tricks seem to be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_CF-18_Hornet...

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by rozab on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:40PM (#24188894)

Awesome! This is similar to dazzle camouflage from WW1, the idea being to disguise the heading of the ship. I'm not sure it was ever shown to actually work though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by Tuna-Fish on Monday August 17, 2020 @02:15PM (#24190055)

Dazzle was meant to fool coincidence rangefinders. The method of operation of such a rangefinder is that you see two halves of a picture, and your job as the operator is to adjust a range knob until the two halves "line up" and produce a single picture. By making parts of the ship easy to mistake for other parts, dazzle made this hard.

Dazzle fundamentally failed at this task because the primary opponent, Imperial Germany, did not use coincidence rangefinders. Instead, they used stereoscopic rangefinders, against which Dazzle had little effect. (Incidentally, the Germans also went to war with a naval camouflage paint scheme that was best designed to defeat their own instruments, and was notably less effective against the Royal Navy.)

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by Waterluvian on Monday August 17, 2020 @02:54PM (#24190516)

This has me really curious about a bigger topic: “what are some massive wartime expenditures (money, resources, attention) that ended up being completely ineffective?”

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by KineticLensman on Monday August 17, 2020 @03:32PM (#24190937)

Soviet anti-tank dogs [0] in WW2. Although in truth the expenditure wasn't massive.

> the Soviets used their own diesel engine tanks to train the dogs rather than German tanks which had gasoline engines.[5] As the dogs relied on their acute sense of smell, the dogs sought out familiar Soviet tanks instead of strange-smelling German tanks

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by emmelaich on Monday August 17, 2020 @07:29PM (#24193522)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Automatic_Ground_Environm...

Cost billions; more than the Manhattan project. Obsolete soon after deployment due to ICBMs.

(Taking your "war time" to include cold war time)

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by hawk_ on Monday August 17, 2020 @05:20PM (#24192279)

My favorite example of this is the Spruce Goose.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_H-4_Hercules

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by eduardo_f on Monday August 17, 2020 @06:47PM (#24193166)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by snowwrestler on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @04:56PM (#24204245)

The canonical example is probably the Maginot Line--to such an extent that it became a general metaphor for that sort of thing.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by gresrun on Monday August 17, 2020 @07:45PM (#24193626)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_R._Mickelsen_Safeguard... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safeguard_Program

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by pjc50 on Monday August 17, 2020 @04:20PM (#24191551)

Most of the German "wunderwaffe", really. The V2 programme killed more during its manufacture than it did as targets.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by Negitivefrags on Monday August 17, 2020 @05:14PM (#24192198)

There is a comedic book on this called "My Tank is Fight"

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by mcguire on Monday August 17, 2020 @03:50PM (#24191190)

On the other hand, dazzle did make the crew feel better. And the ships had to be painted anyway....

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by andbberger on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:17PM (#24194898)

Dazzle arguably made incidence range finders more effective, providing more edges to align.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by heleninboodler on Monday August 17, 2020 @04:26PM (#24191622)

Now I'm laughing at the idea that this was the purpose behind the WW2-era fake teeth painted on fighter planes.

They really need a second study that paints big gnarly WW2 fighter teeth on cows to see what effect it has.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by shoo on Monday August 17, 2020 @06:05PM (#24192766)

No big gnarly teeth, but re: the sibling comments, searching "dazzle cows" reveals https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figures?id=10.1371...

sadly not genuine dazzle camo but in the ballpark

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by heleninboodler on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @02:09AM (#24195762)

That's neat and makes sense. I mean, aren't zebras basically "dazzle horses"?

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by taejo on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @07:13AM (#24209162)

I can't find the story now, but painting teeth on train doors reduces the number of people trying to jump through them as they're closing.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by EGreg on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @01:23AM (#24195563)

As I expected, the tigers adapted and there were other mixed results too

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/9179/does-weari...

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by advaita on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:50AM (#24188355)

IIRC, In Sundarban Delta (India/Bangladesh) people put on masks on the back of the head for similar reasons.

EDIT: Yeap, here's NYT article from 1989 https://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/05/science/face-masks-fool-t...

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by sircastor on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:29PM (#24188764)

This reminds me of a Calvin and Hobbes comic where Calvin, having read about this practice, makes his own mask to protect himself from Hobbes' pouncing.

[1] https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1990/10/23

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by erikig on Monday August 17, 2020 @03:50PM (#24191192)

The outcome of Calvin's "experiment"

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by tome on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:53PM (#24189042)

That's cool. The comic was about one year after the newspaper, so perhaps it got into the public consciousness during that period!

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by ravoori on Monday August 17, 2020 @01:04PM (#24189169)

Apparently putting on a mask at the back of the head stopped working after a while https://books.google.com/books?id=zU7PmIjthpoC&pg=PA38#v=one...

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by dalbasal on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:52PM (#24189025)

It work on magpies. When they nest, Maggies "swoop" at people, dogs and such that get too close. In australia (where all birds are much bolder), people do the sunglasses trick.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by jcampbell1 on Monday August 17, 2020 @02:17PM (#24190087)

My second day in Australia I had one swoop me about 5 times and then finally peck or claw my scalp and it was a bloody mess. I went into the trailer I was staying in and the bird perched on a branch and evil eyed me for 30 minutes. Those birds are gangster.

Later I saw kids waiting for the school bus with ice cream boxes on their head with two dots drawn on the back. Definitely not a fashion thing.

The locals got I good laugh from me getting pecked because they all know the tricks after the first warning swoop.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by x0 on Monday August 17, 2020 @08:29PM (#24193987)

The magpies near me never swoop me, I've somehow made friends with them. They used to swoop my dog, until they saw me and my dog outside together, now they leave her alone. I love them though, they're friendly to other birds (but they have no tolerance for bullies), and they'll even chase off invasive species (Indian Myna birds). They are certainly the dons of my garden.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by suyula on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @12:22AM (#24195242)

Could just be that you were new to the area. I walk everywhere so the magpies see me all year round, and by the time it's swooping season they know I'm not a threat. I only get swooped when I take a different path to normal and come across an unfamiliar family.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by dalbasal on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @09:19AM (#24198192)

Yeah. Schoolkids do the ice cream container helmet. In groups, one usually walks backwards... like a troop of little commandos.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by wrnr on Monday August 17, 2020 @02:54PM (#24190519)

Even big cats use this technique to ward off big cats:

https://www.mindenpictures.com/cache/pcache2/00539194.jpg

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by tejtm on Monday August 17, 2020 @04:08PM (#24191409)

I came to a different conclusion after watching footage of a family hunting together at night.

There is also a third very similar white dot on the tip of the tail which is very much more dynamic that the two fixed points on the ears. By moving the tail relative to the ears I would swear the ones in front could at least communicate their own intents to the ones behind them if not issue perfectly silent directives

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by wrnr on Monday August 17, 2020 @04:43PM (#24191812)

Interesting theory, Tigers not know to hunt in packs, but you might be right thats it's a way to counter their own camouflage. Do you remember the footage.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by tejtm on Monday August 17, 2020 @05:31PM (#24192423)

It was a mother and juveniles, and it would have been decades ago. Maybe not exactly "Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kindom" but something similar.

[]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Kingdom

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by deeringc on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:59AM (#24188446)

I heard the exact same from a shark expert in the Great Barrier Reef. Rather than using a cage or anything we'd normally associate with shark diving, he puts a set of googly eyes on the back of his head and had been safely shark diving professionally for 2 decades.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by oopsiforgot7 on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:10PM (#24188578)

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Vitaly Nikolayenko?

"He spent 33 years living with the brown bears (Ursus arctos) native to the Kamchatka peninsula (...) For over 20 years, Nikolayenko followed an enormous male he named Dobrynya, forming such an easy bond that the bear would often curl up to sleep just a few feet from him."

Eventually he died of a bear mauling.

Moral of the story: it works until it doesn't.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by JackFr on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:27PM (#24188755)

"True Stories of Survivorship Bias"

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by Udik on Monday August 17, 2020 @01:27PM (#24189443)

> Eventually he died of a bear mauling

Wow, same year and two months later than Timothy Treadwell, "Grizzly Man".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Treadwell

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by mcguire on Monday August 17, 2020 @03:53PM (#24191224)

Please don't tell the Discovery Channel about this. We'll be inundated by bear-related conspiracy theories. Or "Bear Week".

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by sildur on Monday August 17, 2020 @06:01PM (#24192730)

An unbearable week.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by vecter on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:49PM (#24188996)

Did that bear maul him though?

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by m463 on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @02:54AM (#24195931)

I listen to Joe Rogan podcasts and he always mentions bears being very different than people think. He said they do all kinds of terrible things, even their own kind. (think how much food a large bear has to eat to stay alive)

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by duck on Monday August 17, 2020 @07:42PM (#24193606)

To save someone the search: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitaly_Nikolayenko

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by dboreham on Monday August 17, 2020 @06:39PM (#24193089)

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by slim on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:09PM (#24188568)

I don't think sharks have the same cognitive capacities as felines plus felines imply a lot of things about their prey when they do this like : there are only two eyes, facing the same direction, prey can only move in 2d etc... which are not true under water

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by jacobwilliamroy on Monday August 17, 2020 @04:16PM (#24191509)

Keep in mind the best shark experts have no idea how sharks reproduce.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by limomium on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @12:18AM (#24195224)

I wouldn't call this "no idea"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shark#Reproduction

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by jacobwilliamroy on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @05:08AM (#24196614)

Looks like 9 paragraphs to me. For comparison, we have MRI scans of human beings orgasming. Most of what we know about wild shark reproduction comes from observing a single population of nurse sharks living in the Dry Tortugas. That's a single population, of a single species, in one place on earth, at one time of year (summer). That's about it.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by tantalor on Monday August 17, 2020 @04:06PM (#24191381)

Why would animals recognize sunglasses as eyes?

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by renewiltord on Monday August 17, 2020 @05:23PM (#24192323)

Well, I still see Orca eyespots as eyes and I've known they're not for at least two decades now.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by Ccecil on Monday August 17, 2020 @10:57PM (#24194810)

Deer and Elk have very dark eyes. https://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/im...

Some sunglasses (probably not all) kinda look like 2 dark circles with a gap between. If you can make the cat second guess it sometimes is all it takes to make it look for other game. They really don't like to eat us anyways from what I hear.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by emmelaich on Monday August 17, 2020 @07:26PM (#24193494)

As a kid, to defend against magpie attacks we used to paint eyes on the back of the upturned ice-cream bucket we used as a helmet.

Worked as far as I could tell.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by nswest23 on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @07:57PM (#24205731)

Sounds like survivorship bias to me /s

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by rootsudo on Monday August 17, 2020 @01:50PM (#24189769)

That is cool.

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Re:Artificial eyespots on cattle reduce predation by large c... by king_panic on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:10PM (#24188576)

TIL :)

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