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Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by thatguy0900 on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:00AM (#24071500)
I actually was sitting outside a few nights ago and realized that there was no more fireflies, and I couldn't remember the last time I had seen one. I used to go out all the time during summer as a kid to catch them, they would light up whole fields. That was just like 15 years ago. Pretty sobering realization
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by wenc on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:48AM (#24072027)
I'm in Chicago (in a neighborhood close to downtown) and in previous years I'd hardly ever seen any fireflies. This year, they're everywhere -- in parks and even in trees on neighborhood streets.

I understand fireflies are sensitive to light pollution. I can't imagine Chicago's any different from other major cities. COVID has people staying home a lot more but that has nothing to do with street lighting. I wonder what's going on.

I do think that living organisms are extraordinarily adaptable if the changes are gradual and bounded. Most of us have this idea that an ecosystem is this delicate and fragile thing, but nature actually has a lot of robustness and redundancies built-in (which are inefficient but increase chances of group survival).

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by cmrdporcupine on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:59AM (#24072170)
We live rural southern Ontario and fireflies are usually just a single weekend or so at the end of June or beginning of July. But this year they went on for almost two months. They only just stopped about a week ago.

I'm not sure why it was a good season for them. Like you say, traffic, lighting, pesticide sprays on farms, all really the same despite COVID. Reduced air traffic I don't think would have an affect? Even after I sprayed my vineyard with insecticide to deal with japanese beetles they were fine, and continued to prosper in and around there.

It may just be that we've had an unusually hot dry year, I assume where you have as well. Maybe that's advantageous for them somehow?

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by joecool1029 on Thursday August 06, 2020 @07:37PM (#24076545)
> We live rural southern Ontario and fireflies are usually just a single weekend or so at the end of June or beginning of July. But this year they went on for almost two months. They only just stopped about a week ago.

I wonder if this is cyclical behavior. We had a year like that last year down in NJ. This year it was back to maybe only a week. I live in the west part of the state surrounded by parkland. Rainfall was the only thing that was dramatically different this year. Last year was extremely wet spring and early summer (when they appeared) followed by an extremely dry end of summer into fall. This year we've had average rain in almost every month. The rain evidence isn't anecdotal, I have a state rainfall gauge a couple miles down the road from me with records going back at least a few decades.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by natmaka on Thursday August 06, 2020 @09:30PM (#24077122)
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by nashalo_nighly on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:13PM (#24072326)
I feel that I hear people say « we’re having a unusually hot dry year » every year...
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by Izkata on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:24PM (#24072469)
On that note I just did a Google search for "more fireflies this year" and got news articles saying as much from 2018, 2019, and 2020.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by hinkley on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:14PM (#24073813)
It's possible that some policy changes are working.

One of my favorite memories of cycling through the midwest in the early 90's was watching the redwing blackbird population slowly recover.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by kdazzle on Friday August 07, 2020 @08:35AM (#24081162)
Wouldn’t have been a good memory if you were _running_ through the midwest. A good chunk of the summer, they dive-bomb anyone who looks at their bush funny. Those birds are my personal nemeses - but they’re winning.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by b1uec4ctus on Friday August 07, 2020 @11:56AM (#24083276)
On that note i just did a Google search for "less fireflies this year" and got news articles saying as much from 2018, 2019, and 2020...
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by ori_b on Thursday August 06, 2020 @06:39PM (#24076184)
The last 5 years have been the hottest years on record, so...
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by Angostura on Thursday August 06, 2020 @08:03PM (#24076670)
People always complain about this being an unusually hot summer. Personally, I’m thinking of it as a summer i will look back upon as deliciously cool.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by Wowfunhappy on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:55PM (#24072827)
Well, we really are in many parts of the world due to Climate Change. If it keeps getting worse, it's always unusual compared to the past...
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by cmrdporcupine on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:08PM (#24073742)
In the upper st lawrence / great lakes basin it's really becoming more and more erratic. More ice storms, more drastic swings in the winter, lower snowfall some years, more droughts in some summers, more record rainfalls in others, etc. It's a recognizable change even in the 25 years I've lived here.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by cmrdporcupine on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:06PM (#24073726)
Maybe, but last year was wet and cool, this year heat wave and drought. The great lakes are still up near their record water levels though (after last year and the year before), whereas a few years ago they were at record lows.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by eirini1 on Saturday August 08, 2020 @10:17AM (#24091761)
i mean, at least where I live many records about average and max temperature have been broken 3 years in a row now. I suppose if this continues it will actually start to be not unusual for this to happen.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by read_if_gay_ on Thursday August 06, 2020 @05:40PM (#24075758)
Well, this year we for one don't, in fact we're having the exact opposite, but last year we did have a hot year and everyone said it's definitely climate change. I think we're not yet at the point where we can feel it, we're just projecting.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by ben_w on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:55AM (#24079836)
The personal subjective feeling at this point is fewer places having snowy winters and more frequent and severe heatwaves — the phrase “9 of the hottest years on record were in the last decade” being in the news most (or all?) years since the late 1990s.

Most individual people won’t feel the change that’s happened over their lifetime unless they’re wondering why it doesn’t snow any more or how they ever managed without air conditioning; it shows up in higher costs for national-scale-multi-year weather damage or crop and fishing productivity.

And of course, this is a global rather than local effect, so some places have more change than others. My first trip to the USA was the 2014/15 winter when there was simultaneously record cold on the Atlantic coast and record warm on the Pacific coast.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by cmrdporcupine on Friday August 07, 2020 @08:44AM (#24081210)
Those of us into winter sports are keenly conscious of the winter weather patterns, in a way the bulk of the population is not. Snow in southern Ontario for example has always been unreliable, with rain and snow mixes common, but snowfall is getting much much less reliable.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by rcMgD2BwE72F on Friday August 07, 2020 @09:50AM (#24081755)
>I do think that living organisms are extraordinarily adaptable if the changes are gradual and bounded. Most of us have this idea that an ecosystem is this delicate and fragile thing, but nature actually has a lot of robustness and redundancies built-in (which are inefficient but increase chances of group survival).

Yet, the vast majority of scientists who study ecosystems disagree: https://ipbes.net/sites/default/files/ipbes_7_10_add.1_en_1....

More at https://ipbes.net/global-assessment

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by closeparen on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:18PM (#24073850)
Chicago used to be orange at night, now it's blue. I wonder if the color temperature and intensity changes in the shift to LED street lighting played a role. They certainly do in human sleep.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by enobrev on Thursday August 06, 2020 @03:56PM (#24074802)
I'm also in Chicago. I've noticed the same. We got those new LED street-lights last autumn and I was wondering if that had something to do with it.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by robohoe on Thursday August 06, 2020 @05:27PM (#24075644)
Same here in the Chicagoland suburbs....nonstop fireflies all evening long. Quite a beautiful sight.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by take_a_breath on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:21PM (#24072420)
I'm seeing the same thing in my Chicago neighborhood. We just had our alley lights changed to the new LEDs, maybe that has an impact?
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by tornquist on Thursday August 06, 2020 @03:08PM (#24074356)
They're changing the lights all over the city. You can see the stars again. I can see way more stars now than 5 years ago.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by amelius on Thursday August 06, 2020 @06:17PM (#24076020)
How many bugs are on your car's windshield/grille, versus 20 years ago?
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by robk on Friday August 07, 2020 @02:53AM (#24079095)
How much more aerodynamic is your car now versus then?
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by filoeleven on Friday August 07, 2020 @07:41PM (#24087587)
I drove a Scion xB for 13 years which had all the sleek aerodynamics of a toaster. When I got it in 2005 after driving a sedan for years, I IMMEDIATELY noticed how much more buggy the windshield got during the summer. It was one of the few things I disliked about that ugly, lovely little Lego brick.

By 2015, the bugs has drastically diminished enough for me to remark upon it before coming across any studies. The confounding factor here though is that the county I was in had a lot of development in it over that time. My routes stayed mostly the same (meaning both ‘where I drove’ and ‘how many buildings were along them’) but I can’t discount the expansion of the surrounding sprawl as a big factor.

Even after I moved to a neighboring more-rural county though, with a longer commute to the same workplace, I did not really see an increase.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by esarbe on Friday August 07, 2020 @05:29AM (#24080050)
This does not seem to have any influence. Even with 'oldtimers' you get less squashed bugs nowadays.

Even accounting for this, there is sufficient evidence for a significant drop in insect populations. While it's hard to have exact numbers, the estimations in decline of population range from 70% to 90% since the 1980.

[1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ece3.5236

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by hef19898 on Friday August 07, 2020 @05:43AM (#24080149)
I remember that a couple of years ago, there was a study that was based on squashed bugs on licence plates. Basically they used the standardized surface of the plates to measure the bugs in a certain area. No idea what came from it.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by raarts on Friday August 07, 2020 @03:49AM (#24079413)
There's also memory. I remember when driving at night 35 years ago I saw a lot more insects in my headlights than I see these days. The difference is very noticeable. There definitely more to it than aerodynamics.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by cycomanic on Friday August 07, 2020 @03:23AM (#24079252)
Actually average CdA (drag area) would certainly have gone up in most parts of the world due to SUVs becoming popular. Looking at values on Wikipedia [1] definitely does not show an obvious reduction over the the last 20 years.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by lazyjones on Friday August 07, 2020 @07:21AM (#24080694)
More... But that's because I drive at unusual hours, not when the squashed bugs are spread out over peak traffic (which has definitely increased, esp. trucks).
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by drums8787 on Thursday August 06, 2020 @04:28PM (#24075113)
Could it be that because of COVID you have time to pay more attention? I wonder that sometimes about things I've "noticed" during the past 6 months. Maybe it accounts for some of it at least.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by joezydeco on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:41PM (#24072661)
I've noticed the uptick in fireflies too, but I attributed it to the mild winter we had compared to the deep freeze of 2018-2019. Spring was also warm and wet very early.

We also had the sub-Brood XIII cicadas launch out in the western suburbs which was insane. They came early and they came out in huge numbers.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by Ma8ee on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:49PM (#24072750)
Ecosystems are delicate and fragile. But if you destroy one, there’s a good chance it very soon will be replaced with a new one, where the new niches are occupied by different species. At first it will be species that that aren’t very specialised, like rats and cockroaches. But after just a few million years you might have something as diverse and rich as the system you destroyed.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by hinkley on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:19PM (#24073854)
I don't want highly specialized pigeons and rats, thank you.

And at any rate, specialization only works if the problems stay relatively stable, or temporary. If we aren't stopped/don't stop ourselves we will keep inventing new insults every ten years and nothing can adapt to anywhere near that rate of change.

You're also forgetting the Carboniferous period. It took 50 million years for anything to puzzle out how to benefit from surplus lignin. In 50 million years are we going to be around? In 50 million years is anyone going to remember that Alpha Centauri is a system humans used to live in (before we used it up)?

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by golergka on Thursday August 06, 2020 @01:33PM (#24073295)
Could they also experience population oscillations, like locusts or other similar species?
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by ryaan_anthony on Thursday August 06, 2020 @04:39PM (#24075227)
Just wait til you get lantern flies, they're no where near as cool.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by sethammons on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:21AM (#24071719)
Fireflies get killed by insecticides used for mosquitoes
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by SuoDuanDao on Friday August 07, 2020 @10:59AM (#24082560)
I'm probably a bit North of you (Southern Canada) and this is the first year I've seen lots of fireflies at night. So there's a good chance it's more a case of migratory patterns changing than a mass die-off. Don't mean to make light of the matter, but it might not be as grim as it appears right now either.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by gre on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:48AM (#24072030)
For me it's red wasps. Growing up in Texas there used to be so many, you could see them flying low searching for spiders in the grass. Last Sunday, in the heart of summer, I couldn't find a single red wasp where there used to be hundreds.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by hinkley on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:33PM (#24074000)
I have a fallow field, and in perhaps two hours of dedicated observation I've got about 10 species of insect I need to identify, and for a couple of them I'm not even sure what kind of bug they are (I'm probably going to have to scan a field guide).

The lot is between the river and our local garden district. I suspect I'm part of a migration route between them (I figured I was too far from the river for dragonflies, but I see at least 2 a day) It's changing my plans for the space a bit.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by reportingsjr on Thursday August 06, 2020 @07:50PM (#24076611)
Would highly suggest checking out the iNaturalist app. It doesn't always nail down insects/plants/etc, but a lot of the times it gives you a good guess and other, more experienced people will come along and give a better id.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by pak9rabid on Thursday August 06, 2020 @04:25PM (#24075079)
There certainly hasn't been a shortage of yellow jackets for me here though (Texas).
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by gcheong on Thursday August 06, 2020 @08:09PM (#24076706)
I used to work summers out of college in an AK cannery. Some years there were barely any fish and the season would be closed early. Other years there was so much fish the cannery could barely keep up. Unless you're monitoring things regularly its hard to say whether there is an actual decline or not.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by epanchin on Thursday August 06, 2020 @01:05PM (#24072956)
Driving through Europe one finds the front of the car covered in squashed insects. Drive through the UK and there are none. Depressing.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by hinkley on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:34PM (#24074019)
I didn't take the insect apocalypse seriously until I realized how much less time I'm spending washing bugs off my car. It was sort of my Silent Spring moment.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by fiblye on Thursday August 06, 2020 @09:28PM (#24077112)
Yeah, I remember my parents needing to clean their windshield every time we went on the highway. It'd get absolutely caked in yellow and brown spatters after merely an hour or two.

As for me, I've never cleaned my windshield in my life. The rain washes off the little bits of dust. There's nothing else to clean.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by autisticcurio on Friday August 07, 2020 @02:57AM (#24079113)
It depends where in the UK you are driving, I have to wash the car after every major journey > 1hr long because its covered in dead insects and the red, I guess blood, staining the paint. I would say there has been more sightings of wildlife and more insects this year because of lockdown, more hedgehogs seen walking on the roads, more deer, rabbits and plenty of insects especially at night at the moment. So I normally walk my dog with a headtorch at night as its cooler for him to run around off the lead but the insects getting attracted to my headtorch this year is a stupid amount to the point I've stopped taking him out at night. Germany may be onto something by reducing the light sources. Where I live we do have LED street lamps which cast a very definite circle of light on the road, but there is no "side leakage" of light so its darker walking between street lamps. You also dont get any orange glow into your house or bedroom window like the old style street lamps used to do which can keep you awake especially when stressed. The number of small birds nesting in the area has also gone up over the last two years but its nice watching them feeding on insects crawling up and down plants like rose bushes, or hanging onto the side of brick houses getting the odd bug.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by mattoxic on Thursday August 06, 2020 @06:39PM (#24076175)
It hit me a couple of years back, a night time drive through the Australian countryside and your car would be plastered with insects - not anymore. And fireflies, I haven't seen one in years,
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by TheSmiddy on Thursday August 06, 2020 @07:16PM (#24076430)
Yes 10 or 15 years ago driving from Adelaide to Melbourne would require a halfway pit stop to manually clean the windscreen because the wipers weren't able to cope with all the bug guts. Last year i did it and didn't need to even use the wipers once.

Our insect loss is much more likely due to climate change than light pollution though due to our sparse population between the cities.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by distances on Friday August 07, 2020 @05:13AM (#24079946)
Is there agriculture in those areas? I've been assuming it's mostly insecticides, as my home country hasn't warmed up that much yet.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by Polylactic_acid on Thursday August 06, 2020 @07:30PM (#24076503)
21 years old and I have never seen a firefly. Figured they were an American thing. Did Australia have them?
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by echelon on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:45AM (#24071988)
It's also past peak firefly season, which is mid May to early June in North America.

Georgia has lots of them. Or at least we did last year. I haven't gotten out much in the COVID-19 world.

A year without fireflies.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by nemo44x on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:56PM (#24078062)
Unless there is actual data it’s probably best to not trust your memory. Every time you remember something the reality of it changes. Memory is lossy. Bias and selection are favored over improvement or precision of recall. Every recollection is inferior to the previous one.

I have a few memories of extensive fire fly experiences back in the day. But when I really think about it, I don’t remember all the days and years without a dramatic memory. And the ones I have may be distorted.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by zaarn on Friday August 07, 2020 @12:53AM (#24078472)
Over the last 27 years, Insect biomass has dropped by more than 75% in protected areas in Germany. I don't think this is a memory issue.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by nemo44x on Friday August 07, 2020 @07:38AM (#24080798)
No doubt. I was just pointing to a single instance and not saying they don’t remember well or that there isn’t data regarding insects in general.

I had a similar thought a few years back and researched it only to find that the fire fly population where I lived hadn’t really changed. I just happened to be keying on a memory that had a large amount of them and not taking into consideration that wasn’t the standard case. That their yearly population is dependent on certain weather conditions during specific months. And that some years they have a bumper crop and others not so much, but on average look about the same. That doesn’t mean it’s the same story where they live of course.

Probably worded it poorly though.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by Erlich_Bachman on Monday August 10, 2020 @05:22AM (#24107190)
So you provided actual data. That is good. That was exactly what they were asking - to use real data and not anecdotes from memory.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by zaarn on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:19AM (#24107991)
I didn't provide any anecdotes but I would point out that even if evidence is just an anecdote, it doesn't mean it's wrong.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by looping__lui on Friday August 07, 2020 @03:16AM (#24079209)
My grand-father lived through WW2. I’d say he was able to give a recollection of memories and experiences that are not found in any books and even though I agree that “good sources for truth” may vary for the use-case, we shouldn’t bee (pun intended) too insecure about believing some of our “past-memory-gut-feel”/“anecdotes”. There is ample evidence about research being “sponsored by the right people showing the right results” or media outlets shaping certain opinions. And even though it may be true that the HN reader has a diverse set of sources to form an opinion - this isn’t necessarily right for “average people”. E.g., the effect and the implications of inflation. For decades I have been hearing that “there is no inflation on Europe, the currency is stable”; yet, recalling “what money could buy back then” stories - I probably get a different vibe. History often repeats itself and “true objective data” may either be spotty and distorted; I have probably grown old and cynic enough to say things like “maybe it’s a good idea to look into the past and remember real good what people said or saw...”

Driving on a highway for 10h without any bugs on it - common sight in Europe nowadays. 10years ago, I would need to handwash it after 3h on the highway. Anecdotes can be a very powerful tool for critical thinking.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by nemo44x on Friday August 07, 2020 @08:03AM (#24080972)
I agree to an extent on most you’ve written but I do think we need to be careful too. A general insect decline (objective data points to this) seems to exist. But a single persons observation that they remember more fire flies than today doesn’t necessarily hold water. I replied to another response that I had a similar thought only to eventually realize I was biasing a small number of events from the past that were probably a standard deviation or more in the “lots of Fire flies” direction. I wasn’t considering all the times there weren’t.

Our brains do this. We key on certain experiences and memory favors the extreme. Over time our memory does distort. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. But that we should be careful with anecdotal memories to make generalized pr specific statements about today’s reality.

As for “history repeating itself” - does it? Or do historians who write history repeat themselves? Historians write about long sequences of events that seem inevitable and if only such and such action were taken then a disaster or triumph would have been avoided or accomplished. But the recording of select historical events is more a persons narrative - a story - rather than the actual past.

What are the motivations of the historian writing about the past? What have they negated? What have they chosen to focus on? What of their memories or the subjects they used to inform their history? Which people do you choose to understand what they “said or saw”?

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by ndespres on Friday August 07, 2020 @12:16AM (#24078218)
What? He says he remembers fields full of fireflies. Why imply that it's memory distortion? I'm surrounded by fields and in the high point or July there are breathtaking displays of fireflies at night, and it's not my imagination. Why tell someone that they misremembered that?
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by nemo44x on Friday August 07, 2020 @07:31AM (#24080752)
I’m not saying that. Just asking if they remember an instance of it and comparing to a non-instance today.

I think I worded it poorly.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by darkstar_16 on Friday August 07, 2020 @06:48AM (#24080485)
So true. We used to have fireflies everywhere when we were growing up. My daughter hasn't seen a single one in her 9 years in this beautiful world.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by jungletime on Friday August 07, 2020 @12:15AM (#24078213)
Lots of fireflies in my backyard every night, probably because it is partially flooded due to the record high water levels in the Great lakes. Have been trying to film them. But subpar results so far. I have a vintage 70-200 lens adopted to m4/3. It says macro on the lens, but I can't focus on anything close at all.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by rangibaby on Friday August 07, 2020 @08:33AM (#24081148)
I have a similar lens that says macro but only focuses a tiny bit closer at the wide end. If you don’t want to buy a real macro lens try an 85-135mm prime with an extension ring.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by User23 on Friday August 07, 2020 @12:21AM (#24078245)
No shortage of lightning bugs here either. The only thing killing them is the spiders.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by jungletime on Friday August 07, 2020 @12:40AM (#24078388)
You should definitely film that. I bet there are thousands of people that would watch a "firefly vs spider" death match on youtube.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by User23 on Friday August 07, 2020 @10:24PM (#24088436)
So far I've only discovered the aftermath, drained husks hanging in a web. If I can catch a spider in the act though that would be great and I'd definitely film it.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by jriot on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:14AM (#24071646)
My backyard in Louisiana has quite a few of them at night. I see probably 20 - 50 a night back there.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by sonar_un on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:31AM (#24071816)
My backyard in Louisiana has zero, zilch, nada. However; when I lived in NYC, I would see them all of the time on riverside.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by Androider on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:46AM (#24071990)
Lots of fireflies in Central Park as well.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by jriot on Friday August 07, 2020 @09:34AM (#24081607)
Where in Louisiana?
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by burke on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:41AM (#24071937)
Same in Ottawa, Ontario—only a few times a year, but when they're out, there are loads of them.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by thatguy0900 on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:36AM (#24071882)
Lucky. I'm tempted to drive out to rural Ohio with my nephew to try to find some.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by iofiiiiiiiii on Friday August 07, 2020 @06:15AM (#24080329)
I have had similar realization with regard to simply mosquitoes. We used to have to put bug-nets on doors and windows to stop bugs flying in during the summer. Now, not needed anymore - at most we get one bug flying in per week.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by toss1 on Thursday August 06, 2020 @08:38PM (#24076854)
Yup, North of Boston here, fairly woodsy area, too many years seeing too few firefiles, although this summer there were a few more than past years - I hope it's a growth trend!
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by linuxftw on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:19AM (#24071695)
Used to be 100's or 1000's of them during the peak in summer where I lived. Now it's a handful. This is out in a rural area, so urban lighting doesn't explain the decline.

If I had to wager money, I'd say it was a blight introduced by another insect. Around the same year I saw an invasion of Asian lady bugs, the firefly memories stop. There were literally millions and millions of those Asian lady bugs released or hatched one year.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by hn_check on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:23AM (#24071745)
Plenty of fireflies in my yard. As prevalent as ever [1]. This is just an anecdote, but I give that anecdote as another person who lives in a somewhat rural location.

Speaking of the lady bug explosion, this year they are incredibly rare [2]. Not sure why, but they went from being a massive nuisance to being a very rare sight (of any variety).

Humans are absolutely having a calamitous effect on insect life in a variety of dimensions, however on the flip side it does seem like insect populations massively fluctuate for entirely natural reasons. A bit of an early summer, or more rain in April, etc, and one insect type explodes and another wanes.

1 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24071745

2 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24071745

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by glennpratt on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:31AM (#24071821)
I've listened to this conversation several times without looking it up, so:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefly#Conservation

"Firefly populations are declining worldwide, for a variety of reasons.[25] Fireflies, like many other organisms, are directly affected by land-use change (e.g. loss of habitat area and connectivity), which is identified as the main driver of biodiversity changes in terrestrial ecosystems.[26] Pesticides and weed-killers have also been indicated as a likely cause of firefly decline.[27]"

"Finally, since fireflies depend on their own light to reproduce [28] they are also very sensitive to environmental levels of light and consequently to light pollution.[28][29] Multiple recent studies investigate deeply the effects of artificial night lighting on fireflies.[30][31]"

[25]: https://www.firefly.org/

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by FrojoS on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:10PM (#24072296)
Thank you. This should be the top comment.

If there is any increase due to the lock down, my speculation would be, that it is related to less cars on the streets.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by hn_check on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:13PM (#24072333)
Fireflies certainly are in decline in urban areas, and from that in a holistic population sense. The amount of natural areas continues to decline worldwide leading to reduced habitat for a lot of insects and animals.

However I was replying to someone who stated that they live in a rural area so lighting isn't the cause. I also live in a rural area, albeit on the edge of a very large city (e.g. there is the large light bubble on the horizon, actually from several large cities in each direction), and fireflies are absolutely rampant, and have been for years. My comments makes zero claims about the worldwide population of fireflies, or about how many fireflies there are in your or anyone else's backyard. In mine there are loads.

However it is a reality that localized ebbs and flows happen. Nature is prone to waxing and waning. The reproductive potential of many insects is so enormous that one year can be a dearth and the next overwhelming. Small seasonal weather variations, of the completely ordinary and natural kind, can dramatically impact the mix.

To go back to the ladybugs, specifically the Asian ladybugs, last year they were everywhere. Every corner would have a bunch of them. They'd get in the house and then smash into the ceiling near every pot light leaving discolorations (blood or something). This year I've seen barely a dozen or so all season. It's just a complete 180.

Aside - I swear I am not intending to be combative, but the citations make me recall a prior comment-

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23899565

The Wikipedia page you link cites the second link you gave as its source to demonstrate the worldwide decline in fireflies. That citation cites nothing as its source but fond recollections of youth.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by linuxftw on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:15PM (#24073820)
> To go back to the ladybugs, specifically the Asian ladybugs, last year they were everywhere. Every corner would have a bunch of them. They'd get in the house and then smash into the ceiling near every pot light leaving discolorations (blood or something). This year I've seen barely a dozen or so all season. It's just a complete 180.

To me, it sounds like your area experienced an intentional release of the Asian Lady bug last year. TBD if they kill off all your fireflies, obviously that's pure speculation on my part.

As far as firefly decline, I don't live on the edge of a city or town. I'm actually quite rural. There are two places I've seen the decline. My home and my family's cabin 2 states away, both very rural. There has been no significant habitat change in either area, both having forest and established farms, very little development over my lifetime.

This is not an effect I noticed gradually or recently. It was about 15+ years ago now. Fireflies basically just disappeared, all at once. The colors of the remaining fireflies in both locations are also different. They were previously a yellow-green glow, and have been replaced by a more white-bluish glow.

Anyway, I don't know what caused their decline, but it's very apparent, and light pollution has nothing to do with it in my area.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by reportingsjr on Thursday August 06, 2020 @08:07PM (#24076691)
If your cabins are near farms it is very possible the firefly decline you possibly noticed was caused by the introduction of neonics in the 90s. They are incredibly destructive and are part of the reason for the european honeybee issues that have gotten so much press here in the US.

They are widely believed to be a major factor in the current decline of insects.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by stinos on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:02PM (#24072210)
it does seem like insect populations massively fluctuate for entirely natural reasons

Spot on, this is usually the real explanation for the typical 'I saw none'/'oh but I saw a bunch'/'I saw more than ever' rethoric applied to one single year or even multiple years of observations. Thinking of it, goes for basically all slowish trends related to nature. Unless you're approaching it scientifically, i.e. actual systematic counting which is hard btw, it's oh so easy to be fooled. That being said, see other post: yes fireflies are in decline (just like many other insects unfortunately) and light pollution is a factor.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by hn_check on Thursday August 06, 2020 @01:11PM (#24073015)
I assume fireflies are declining from the loss of habitat, along with so many other insect species. The speculation about light being a cause seems logical, but is unproven. Indeed, even the population variations of fireflies is unproven -- the wiki citation in the other link uses as its authority a cite that merely notes that they recall more when they were kids. It is an extremely poor quality citation (but it will play well on HN).

"Doom!" is a very seductive narrative that we fall to regarding virtually every change in our environment. Sometimes reasonably, as with AGW, but other times just taking natural variations and screaming end times...then just going quiet when they recover again as we move to the next cause.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by stinos on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:14PM (#24073814)
Habitat loss is a key factor, probably the key factor, but the reasearch around artifical night light and fireflies/glowworms goes way beyond 'recall more than they were kids' - not sure why you'd pick that as main argument from a Wikipedia page. See e.g. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339213788_A_Global_... page 4 and beyond which reads

  Observational and experimental studies provide evidence hat ALAN adversely affects firefly populations. Several studies have shown negative correlations between high levels of ALAN and firefly abundance.
and mentions several studies regarding the subject (though also warns it's hard to pinpoint the main cause amongst the variety of other negative factors).
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by hn_check on Thursday August 06, 2020 @02:23PM (#24073888)
I was specifically responding to the Wikipedia extract.

The citation for the statement "Firefly populations are declining worldwide, for a variety of reasons" is a link to firefly.org. That is a small, Texas group that appreciates Fireflies, which is nice. But it is home to no studies, no research, no analysis. Nor does it (that group, or the wiki page that was cited to apparently refute my personal anecdote...) cite the publication you mention. So I'm not really sure what we're discussing here.

I'm not disagreeing that there is a decline for a multitude of reasons, or that light is probably bad, but if someone says "my yard has no fireflies the apocalypse is upon us" it probably isn't credible.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by reportingsjr on Thursday August 06, 2020 @08:02PM (#24076666)
> Humans are absolutely having a calamitous effect on insect life in a variety of dimensions

This is incredibly obvious to be in my neighborhood. My landlord (very regretfully) has a company spray insecticide in our yard. There are no bugs, not a single bug sound.

The area I live in has many nature conscious people so about 1/10th of the yards are gardens, wildflowers, etc rather than grass. Just walking by them you hear a tremendous symphony of bugs! Then it almost entirely goes away in the next yard that is just grass.

In a local park there is about 1/4 acre that is only mown every couple of years as a "pollinator friendly" prairie-ish area, and the number of fireflies in just that section is astonishing. There are just hundreds and hundreds, it's beautiful.

Thinking about the increasing suburbanization of the US makes me sad. We subsidize this lifestyle so heavily here that it doesn't make sense to live anywhere else, but the land use is just awful.

It's not even wildlife and plants. I'm in southwest Ohio and the closest reasonably dark sky spot is almost 2 hours away. My S/O and I have been to some dark sky viewings hosted by a local observatory about 45 minutes away. I have really good night vision and can just barely see the milky way. My S/O /thought/ she could see it, but only realized the magnitude when we went to this national forest 2 hours away. It made me sad that she hadn't been able to see some of the wildness of our world.

I truly hope the "suburban dream" that has been pushed for so many decades starts dying off, so at least some of the wild areas in the US remain intact. There's already so little in the midwest.

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by mensetmanusman on Thursday August 06, 2020 @09:11PM (#24077021)
We moved into a home last year with a ‘nice’ boomer lawn maintained with all the chemicals (there were almost 10 types of insect killer sprays in the basement, each for a different genus).

When digging for some conduit, my toddlers kept wanting to find worms in the dirt and waited in excitement as I dug about a yard of dirt.

No bugs, no worms.

whoa!

Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by natmaka on Thursday August 06, 2020 @09:53PM (#24077245)
... and all those wonderful chemicals were rinsed up into groundwater, or a river...
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by stephenhuey on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:36AM (#24071876)
Where are you, that I might voyage to your mystical land and once again gaze upon the gentle twinkle of firefly lights?
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by cm2012 on Friday August 07, 2020 @01:50AM (#24078789)
My neighborhood in Queens NYC has hundreds every night
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by wincy on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:46AM (#24071996)
I saw a bunch last month here in Kansas City. I might get a lot more because I have a walking trail behind me, so there's no lights in my back yard.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by fasteddie31003 on Thursday August 06, 2020 @01:50PM (#24073517)
I was driving though Nebraska a few months ago and there were so many fireflies it looked like a scene out of Avatar.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by DSingularity on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:53AM (#24072100)
Yeah I feel the same. I recently felt pretty astonished after seeing them again once I went out in the woods.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by abstractbarista on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:47AM (#24072004)
I saw more than I've seen in many years the other night. Seems to just depend on the area.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by formerly_proven on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:21PM (#24072415)
Last time I've seen a firefly must have been at least ten years ago.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by novaleaf on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:16PM (#24072369)
and to your children, it will be the way nature always was.
Re:Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects by disambiguation on Thursday August 06, 2020 @12:40PM (#24072641)
i live in brooklyn, the nearby parks have plenty of fireflies around dusk