likewise collecting damages, etc
I think it would depend on the local jurisdiction's definition of the tort. A purchase/refund scheme would not induce Apple or the vendor to breach their app store contract, but it would deprive the vendor of its expected economic benefit.
edit: so who is in trouble here? The person calling for people to do it with their twitter following or the twitter followers? I'm not saying that buying the app and returning it is not fraud if you entered into the transaction in bad faith and with intent to cause damage to the dev, I'm saying calling people to do that is not fraud.
I think the form is definitely fraud but I wouldn't be surprised if Visa went after you for something as well, they need to actually process all those charges and charge backs and it does cost them some amount of money to do so.
In the past 2 weeks you've said quite a lot of mean things to people on HN. Please stop doing that.
It would be one thing if they said "We're keeping the credit card processing fees so that we don't lose money," but to keep the whole 30% cut is just petty.
> All Transactions are final. Content prices may change at any time. If technical problems prevent or unreasonably delay delivery of Content, your exclusive and sole remedy is either replacement of the Content or refund of the price paid, as determined by Apple. From time to time, Apple may refuse a refund request if we find evidence of fraud, refund abuse, or other manipulative behavior that entitles Apple to a corresponding counterclaim.
Which makes it sound like they aren't granting refunds at all for anything except failure to deliver the product.
And yet when I look at their actual refund request form it has options for "I did not mean to buy this, child bought without permission, I did not mean to subscribe, I did not mean to renew subscription, my purchase did not work as expected, in-app not received." So clearly not all purchases are final.
I don't think it's a good look for Apple to be issuing refunds at their sole discretion and then turning around and making someone else pay for it. You're just supposed to trust them that the magic fraud prevention box is doing its best?
I think the jurisdiction you’re talking about is the EU, and it’s not quite that clear cut.
As a general rule online merchants do need to provide refunds, unless it’s a digital good, and they provided an explicit warning during the checkout flow that the sale isn’t refundable.
If you ask for refunds from Apple for apps they’ll introduce that warning into the checkout flow for future app purchases, which will disappear again after enough purchases.
So Apple do have some basic, compliant, controls that means you can’t just keep buying apps and getting refunds.
> In the EU you have the right to return purchases made online or through other types of distance selling, such as by phone, mail order or from a door-to-door salesperson, within 14 days for a full refund. You can do so for any reason – even if you simply changed your mind.
There is a potential exemption for digital content "if you have already started downloading or streaming it and you agreed that you would lose your right of withdrawal by starting the performance," but Apple does not appear to have its customers agree to that.
Specifically called out in their UK conditions:
> Right of cancellation: If you choose to cancel your order, you may do so within 14 days of when you received your receipt, without giving any reason.
https://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/itunes/uk/term...
Presumably in other European terms as well, I checked the UK because it's in English.
Actually, with an EU iTunes account, you have an additional popup dialog you have to agree to with every in-app purchase where you have to agree that it does not qualify for the exemption.
They have an "I would like to cancel this purchase" option in the EU for a reason, which gives you an unconditional refund within 14 days as long as you didn't get that popup when purchasing.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua...
> Right of cancellation: If you choose to cancel your order, you may do so within 14 days of when you received your receipt, without giving any reason
It seems pretty random when it's applied though. Some got it after just one refund, meanwhile I've had multiple refunds, and I got that popup once for a $1 purchase but then never again and I was able to request a refund again.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208856 -a problem with the payment method
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250384392 -credit card fraud
I asked for you to cite sources on Apple banning people for repeatedly claiming a refund. Not for using a stolen credit or gift card.
Cite me that it's not fraud if that's not good enough for you, I'm not really interested in proving fraud is not just allowed to run rampant in a payment system in the very thread about how doing this exact thing would be abusive and need to be stopped somehow.
In the EU i have a right to a refund, there is no part of that right that forbids me from repeating that purchase. Since we have established that Apple don't suffer financially from obeying these rules to the letter, i see no incentive for them to treat this kind of thing like fraud.
They might, but you have not established this, and i don't think its a fair assumption to make.