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Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by wlesieutre on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @11:57AM (#23988181)
Will they? In some jurisdictions they are required by law to grant refunds. In others, they still have very little incentive to control refund fraud, what with the fact that they're still making money rather than losing it.

It would be one thing if they said "We're keeping the credit card processing fees so that we don't lose money," but to keep the whole 30% cut is just petty.

Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by R0b0t1 on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @12:02PM (#23988274)
Are they obligated to do business with you? Typically the answer is no, but some countries (like Germany) stores can't ban people if they're the only store in a town. I'm not sure if this would work for Apple, but it might if you already own an iDevice.
Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by wlesieutre on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @12:09PM (#23988349)
I couldn't say. But here's the bit of their terms of service (for USA) that mentions refunds:

> All Transactions are final. Content prices may change at any time. If technical problems prevent or unreasonably delay delivery of Content, your exclusive and sole remedy is either replacement of the Content or refund of the price paid, as determined by Apple. From time to time, Apple may refuse a refund request if we find evidence of fraud, refund abuse, or other manipulative behavior that entitles Apple to a corresponding counterclaim.

Which makes it sound like they aren't granting refunds at all for anything except failure to deliver the product.

And yet when I look at their actual refund request form it has options for "I did not mean to buy this, child bought without permission, I did not mean to subscribe, I did not mean to renew subscription, my purchase did not work as expected, in-app not received." So clearly not all purchases are final.

I don't think it's a good look for Apple to be issuing refunds at their sole discretion and then turning around and making someone else pay for it. You're just supposed to trust them that the magic fraud prevention box is doing its best?

Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by zmk_ on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @12:44PM (#23988775)
As far as I know, in EU, you have a right to return anything that you bought online, no questions asked.
Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by avianlyric on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @12:57PM (#23988943)
> In some jurisdictions they are required by law to grant refunds.

I think the jurisdiction you’re talking about is the EU, and it’s not quite that clear cut.

As a general rule online merchants do need to provide refunds, unless it’s a digital good, and they provided an explicit warning during the checkout flow that the sale isn’t refundable.

If you ask for refunds from Apple for apps they’ll introduce that warning into the checkout flow for future app purchases, which will disappear again after enough purchases.

So Apple do have some basic, compliant, controls that means you can’t just keep buying apps and getting refunds.

Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by asdfaoeu on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @12:23PM (#23988523)
I've never heard of any jurisdiction where unconditional refunds are required. A lot do require refunds if the product is faulty but that's different.
Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by wlesieutre on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @12:39PM (#23988714)
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua...

> In the EU you have the right to return purchases made online or through other types of distance selling, such as by phone, mail order or from a door-to-door salesperson, within 14 days for a full refund. You can do so for any reason – even if you simply changed your mind.

There is a potential exemption for digital content "if you have already started downloading or streaming it and you agreed that you would lose your right of withdrawal by starting the performance," but Apple does not appear to have its customers agree to that.

Specifically called out in their UK conditions:

> Right of cancellation: If you choose to cancel your order, you may do so within 14 days of when you received your receipt, without giving any reason.

https://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/itunes/uk/term...

Presumably in other European terms as well, I checked the UK because it's in English.

Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by p49k on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @12:55PM (#23988913)
> Apple does not appear to have its customers agree to that

Actually, with an EU iTunes account, you have an additional popup dialog you have to agree to with every in-app purchase where you have to agree that it does not qualify for the exemption.

Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by nyuszika7h on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:28AM (#23997299)
That popup will only appear if your account has already been flagged by Apple for refund abuse. It certainly does not appear every time.

They have an "I would like to cancel this purchase" option in the EU for a reason, which gives you an unconditional refund within 14 days as long as you didn't get that popup when purchasing.

Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by stordoff on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @03:09PM (#23990468)
FWIW, I don't recall ever seeing this in the UK - I've just tried an in-app purchase, and it just gives the "Double-Click to Pay" FaceID screen (which lists description, account, and price, but no information about refunds/exemptions).
Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by nyuszika7h on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:29AM (#23997305)
The popup will appear after approving the Face ID prompt IIRC, as an additional confirmation before finalizing the transaction, but as I said it only starts appearing if Apple detects refund abuse and flags your account.
Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by fnord123 on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @12:37PM (#23988671)
The jurisdiction that will come to most minds is the EU, but it has exemptions for digitally downloaded content and unsealed software.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua...

Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by wlesieutre on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @12:42PM (#23988751)
Apple explicitly does not claim that exemption, the 14 day no-questions-asked refund period is called out in their terms and conditions.

> Right of cancellation: If you choose to cancel your order, you may do so within 14 days of when you received your receipt, without giving any reason

Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by avianlyric on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @12:59PM (#23988967)
Apple will start applying that exemption if you abuse their refund process. One or two refunds in a short period is usually enough to trigger it, and it disappears again after some “good behaviour”.
Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by nyuszika7h on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:31AM (#23997327)
I don't know why you're being downvoted, you're completely right. If your account is flagged, they will show an additional popup like this: https://9to5mac.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2015/01/b7lgr...

It seems pretty random when it's applied though. Some got it after just one refund, meanwhile I've had multiple refunds, and I got that popup once for a $1 purchase but then never again and I was able to request a refund again.

Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by dgellow on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @12:38PM (#23988688)
Europe does have 14 days refund for online orders, without conditions.

https://ecommercenews.eu/online-returns-in-europe/

Re:When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its ... by jahaja on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @12:37PM (#23988677)
In Sweden you have to explicitly waive your right to a refund. Otherwise you can do it for 14 days.