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Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by sampo on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:06AM (#23702209)
68% of conservative voters, 71% of labour voters, and 77% of libdem voters support this.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/0...

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by OJFord on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:06PM (#23703034)
> The continued relevance of these questions meant that thirty years later, in June 2020, YouGov were able to asked respondents the same questions, allowing us to discover how public opinion has changed in the intervening period. > Interestingly, the results reveal a fall in public awareness on the issue. In 2020, about half the population (51%) reported having heard about the proposals – though this figure seems likely to rise with the PM’s recent announcement. Back in 1990, the figure was a much higher 78%.

It goes on to list the coronavirus and Tiananmen as possible reasons; isn't the most obvious contributory factor that a lot of voters have been born since then, and it hasn't been on the national curriculum or often reported on?

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by nly on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:15AM (#23702326)
Surprising isn't it, given how much of a driving force EU immigration was in the Brexit debate.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by dragonwriter on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @01:42PM (#23704239)
Hong Kong is a part of the Empire that was severed recently, and not because the people there actively sought that outcome. I suspect that for some of the people concerned about immigration, that makes Hong Kongers more British-separated-by-ill-conceived-policy than foreigners.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by ksec on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:23AM (#23702454)
It kind of depends, immigration wasn't a big part of it from talking with many business partners. Many just dont like the idea rules are being made in Brussels.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by arethuza on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:33AM (#23702583)
The claim that Turkey was soon going to join the EU (which isn't going to happen) and flood the country with Turkish immigrants was a major component of vote leave messaging: "Turkey/NHS/£350 million".

Edit: FYI Dominic Cummings actually blogged about the important of Turkey to their success:

https://dominiccummings.com/2017/01/09/on-the-referendum-21-...

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by baybal2 on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @01:43PM (#23704256)
Turkey has actually turned in a net labour importer not so long ago, and it has a robust industrial sector.

Rural Turkey has unemployment issue, but that's a separate matter to Turkish migrants to EU.

Turkish migration to EU is much more white collar, and urban.

P.S. The most hilarious rightist conspiracy theory I've heard of was that of Boris Johnson being a Turkish spy

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by nailer on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:57PM (#23703708)
To be fair Angela Merkel flooded Germany with millions of immigrants from the middle East.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by nailer on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @03:10PM (#23705228)
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by mytailorisrich on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:15PM (#23703137)
Immigration was a big part of it.

Although unemployment was officially low, many in low end jobs felt that the huge influx of Eastern Europeans pushed wages down.

There is also the societal aspect of it because of the demographic change caused by a large influx of immigrants into an area.

Then, the prospect of Turkey joining the EU was raised, which would mean free movement for Turkish nationals and that scared people as well.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by grey-area on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:33AM (#23702585)
They may be disappointed when they discover the rules aren't made in Brussels because the UK joined the EU, but because it's the UK's largest trading partner and the largest trade bloc in the world.

Brexit will simply make their position worse.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by dragonwriter on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @02:15PM (#23704638)
> but because it's the UK's largest trading partner and the largest trade bloc in the world.

The North American trade bloc (NAFTA/USMCA) is actually slightly bigger by both GDP and population, though the EU is, yes, the UK’s biggest trade partner.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by grey-area on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @03:00PM (#23705115)
OK second largest. It makes them a formidable interlocutor in negotiations, and the power imbalance means things will inevitably be decided in Berlin which impact the UK on regulations, trade, tariffs and FOM. The UK has little leverage and power in this relationship.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by nailer on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:58PM (#23703716)
No. As anyone with an interest in politics in the UK will tell you, free movement literally ended yesterday.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by grey-area on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @04:00PM (#23705839)
The problem with trying to threaten the EU with a no deal exit is it's like a bank robber threatening to blow his own head off - messy, undesirable, but ultimately not very persuasive.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by nailer on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @06:14PM (#23707419)
It's mutually assured destruction. The EU doesn't want to lose billions of dollars in trade either.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by grey-area on Thursday July 02, 2020 @12:58AM (#23710138)
I don't think the EU will be moved by this. They can easily wait till the UK exits without a deal then be in an even stronger negotiating position.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by nailer on Thursday July 02, 2020 @04:48AM (#23711251)
You understand the concept of 'mutual', right?
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by grey-area on Thursday July 02, 2020 @08:26AM (#23712373)
Like the bank robber, you seem to mistake a threat of self-harm by the UK for an existential threat to the EU. No deal is not mutually assured destruction, it's certain destruction for the UK and some damage to the EU.

That's not a very convincing lever in a negotiation. The final relationship will benefit the EU far more than the UK, simply because of the balance of power, regardless of delusions to the contrary and empty bombast from Johnson.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by nailer on Thursday July 02, 2020 @08:35AM (#23712448)
OK, you think the EU wants to deliberately damage itself, like your bank robber analogy. You're welcome to your opinion.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by DanBC on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @01:21PM (#23704008)
They'd be wrong.

A bill passed its 3rd reading in house of commons. It needs to get through the House of Lords. It still has some way before becoming law.

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/passage-bill/common...

And when the UK crashes out of EU with no deal we'll inevitably re-allow free movement of EU workers because we have no bargaining power.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by nailer on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @03:08PM (#23705213)
You're right. It needs to go through Lords. It will.

Regarding your last sentence: leaving no-deal off the table, and this being unable to walk away, would have meant we have no bargaining power.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by philwelch on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @01:57PM (#23704417)
> And when the UK crashes out of EU with no deal

It’s incredible how many times people have cried wolf about this.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by DanBC on Friday July 03, 2020 @09:14PM (#23729161)
If we have a deal that's going to include freedom of movement; if we don't have a deal we're going to be forced to include freedom of movement to get trading.

There's no version of the UK in 2022 that doesn't have freedom of movement for EU citizens.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by cm2187 on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @01:56PM (#23704399)
Or repay the italian debt.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by Veen on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:44AM (#23702734)
It wasn’t so much the fact of immigration, but the lack of control over immigration.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by mhh__ on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @01:30PM (#23704100)
perceived lack of control.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by philwelch on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @01:56PM (#23704403)
There’s nothing “perceived” about it—the UK was forced to admit any “EU citizen” who wanted to come and immediately grant them permanent residency, which already represents a fundamental loss of control.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by foldr on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @02:02PM (#23704481)
Why are you putting "EU citizen" in scare quotes? It's a perfectly well-defined concept.

The UK was certainly not obliged to immediately grant them permanent residency. See e.g. here https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-ri...

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by Veen on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @02:18PM (#23704668)
While there was no obligation to grant permanent residency, the criteria that would allow removal before the five years (or two years in some cases) are narrow. If someone had a job and in some cases when they didn’t, it was impossible to remove them unless they posed a serious threat. That is, in fact, a significant limitation on the control the UK could exert over immigration from the EU.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by foldr on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @02:19PM (#23704678)
Well, yes, there was freedom of movement. I'm not sure why being unable to remove someone who has a job is so terrible. We could have chosen to put a cap on migration from relatively poor EU countries, but we chose not to.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by cm2187 on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @01:55PM (#23704379)
How could the UK control it?
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by foldr on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @02:04PM (#23704493)
We could have opted in to stricter controls on migration from Eastern Europe, but no-one wanted to at the time, as there would have been no benefit to doing so.

https://theconversation.com/the-huge-political-cost-of-blair...

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by koheripbal on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:39PM (#23703444)
No - because these are RICH Asian migrants, not POOR North African and Syrian migrants.

It's a combination of differential racism and elitism.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by tomp on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:57PM (#23703705)
> "differential racism"

So basically the existing word "racism" didn't fit (because racist Brits would hate Asian HKers just as much as brown Syrians and black Africans) so you invented a new completely concept but conveniently attached the word "racism" to it for maximal emotional impact?

Despicable.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by dragonwriter on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @01:51PM (#23704332)
Racism works fine for what is described, there is nothing about racism which requires it to be “my race good, all other races equally bad”. “Differential racism” is a perfectly good way of distinguishing a multitiered racial heirarchy from a binary one.

Though I think nationalism may be at least as much of a factor as race-based differentiation. (That is, that nationalism in the context of colonial history is why HKers are treated more favorably by opinion than other non-white, or even white, immigrants.)

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by philwelch on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @02:00PM (#23704456)
“Racism” is not a very good term for privileging non-white immigrants from former colonies over white European immigrants.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by dragonwriter on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @02:07PM (#23704541)
Racism is a perfectly fine term for weighting East Asian race less negatively than other non-white races in a function with multiple other factors besides race, resulting in certain East Asian immigrants being favored over white European immigrants.

Though, as explained already in GP, I think nationalism is the more relevant factor here, whether or not racism (binary or differential) is also involved (which at some level it obviously is.)

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by Veen on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @02:24PM (#23704728)
The UK is not weighting Asians higher than other non-white races. It’s favouring people from the Commonwealth and others to whom we have historical commitments above countries where no such ties exist.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by dragonwriter on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @02:30PM (#23704785)
> The UK is not weighting Asians higher than other non-white races.

I didn't say it was. I said that the upthread commenter’s use of “differential racism” to describe their explanation in which Britain was doing that was, contrary to the claim that it was redefining “racism”, a perfectly valid use of the term “racism”.

I've also said in every post in which I've argued that point that I think that what is actually happening involves nationalism in light of the HKs colonial history, not, or at least more decisively than, racism, differential or otherwise.

There two different issues here, one about whether a hypothetical scenario is within the usual definition of “racism” and one about whether than hypothetical is the best explanation of what is factually occurring.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by Veen on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @02:44PM (#23704953)
The explanation is the obvious one. The UK has a treaty with China intended to prevent what is happening from happening. China is in breach of the treaty and, in light of that, the UK is acting to protect people to whom it believes it has an obligation. It has nothing to do with either racism or nationalism.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by koheripbal on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @04:11PM (#23705959)
No one is arguing that point. What is being debated is why very conservative racists in the UK culture are overwhelmingly supportive of Asians over Syrians and North Africans. ...and differential racism is my belief as to why.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by Veen on Thursday July 02, 2020 @03:14AM (#23710747)
You are using “very conservative racists” and “differential racism” to explain something which is better explained by historical relationships and obligations. No such relationships or obligations exist with Syria or most of North Africa.

No country can invite everyone to immigrate. They have to be selective, and that doesn’t make them racist. No one has the right to immigrate to another country: it’s a privilege granted by the government and people of that country who make decisions about who to accept according to their own interests and perceived obligations - again, not racism.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by philwelch on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @06:23PM (#23707500)
So you’re starting from the presupposition that British conservatives are racist and then trying to explain away evidence contrary to that presupposition.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by FabHK on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @01:09PM (#23703859)
Eh? Racism judges people by their race, and judges different races differently. The word fits just fine. Adding "differential" was unnecessary, but maybe added to highlight the uneven extent of the negative judgement.

Having said that, the GP does not provide any evidence that racism was the motivating factor here.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by koheripbal on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @04:28PM (#23706182)
> but maybe added to highlight the uneven extent of the negative judgement.

That was exactly the point.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by notahacker on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @01:08PM (#23703855)
> because racist Brits would hate Asian HKers just as much as brown Syrians and black Africans

Even a racist as extreme and obsessed with whiteness specifically as Hitler deemed some nonwhite races worthy of respect, even as he plotted others' extermination. Clearly it is absurd to define 'racist' so narrowly that even the actual Nazis don't qualify

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by mellosouls on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:42PM (#23703480)
It's a combination of differential racism and elitism.

Is it possibly more representative of your own prejudices that you see only negative motivation here?

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by koheripbal on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @04:13PM (#23705994)
This is the "he who smelt it, dealt it" form of logical argument.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by mellosouls on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @05:24PM (#23706894)
Considering you are ascribing the worst possible motives to millions of people in a gross generalisation - it's a fair question to ask.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by notahacker on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:48PM (#23703571)
I think most people accurately assume that not many Hong Kong citizens will come, and none of the focus of recent anti-immigrant sentiment has been on ethnic Chinese people.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by barneygale on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:21AM (#23702429)
Hong Kong was a British colony until 1997.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by arethuza on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:24AM (#23702465)
About a quarter of the world has been a British colony at some point!
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by csomar on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:40AM (#23702675)
Hong Kong is very British, though. Most of the other colonized parts are not (Exceptions maybe Canada, NZ and Australia). But traveling from Hong Kong to Shenzhen, you can feel that there is a significant culture gap.

Also Hong Kong appears to have lots of British banking connections like HSBC and Standard Chartered.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by mytailorisrich on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:18PM (#23703180)
Hongkong looks somewhat British in some aspects but not many. I think the main culture gap is that HK has kept a traditional Chinese culture that was swept away on the mainland.

> like HSBC

The name which means the Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Company. A bank founded in China (Hongkong) by the British.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by refurb on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:39PM (#23703442)
I think Hong Kong looks very British! At least in comparison to the other Asian nations that don't have a British Colonial history.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by csomar on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:47PM (#23703556)
Sure it was founded in HongKong but at that time it's purpose was to facilitate trade and banking between the UK and mainland China. My point is that they still have lots of these relations up to this day.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by nsl73 on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:30AM (#23702554)
Their two systems one county deal with China is being taken away, which effects not only Hong Kong people, but British honor.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by FabHK on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @01:11PM (#23703892)
In particular, it contravenes the treaty (the Sino-British Joint Declaration).
[dead]
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by Veen on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:46AM (#23702754)
Certain religions would be a more accurate way to put it than certain races.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by Lio on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:01PM (#23702963)
Does the UK? Or do some subsection of the UK population?

I know I don't have a problem with Syrian refugees and I would imagine that just one person out 60 something million would be enough to refute your statement.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by akie on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:23AM (#23702447)
They have a problem with Europeans coming over as well.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by runawaybottle on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:34AM (#23702596)
That’s not what rallied Brexit. The right riled up people with “scary” immigration, the same way “scary” Mexican immigration was used by Trump.

But hey, Hong Kongers are “better” immigrants. We can all see through this I hope.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by AuryGlenz on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @02:47PM (#23704977)
I don’t think it’s wrong to prefer to have educated immigrants over non-educated. One creates wealth and resources and the other drains it. One is more likely to be law abiding and the other less likely. If Wakanda existed I doubt there would be much opposition to letting their citizens immigrate.
[dead]
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by arethuza on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:26AM (#23702492)
I suspect that description applies to a lot of migrants to the UK from the EU - certainly most of the people I know who migrated here from Germany, Greece, Spain, Italy....
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by ginko on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:30AM (#23702555)
That fits Polish immigrants to the UK to a t.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by soapdog on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:48AM (#23702774)
It fits every single immigrant I met here, including myself.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by rat9988 on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @11:34AM (#23702590)
You mean rich migrants I guess.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by harikb on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:02PM (#23702977)
Whether UK citizens approve this or not, logistical challenge of making this happen is immense. I think UK politicians know this is just a threat.

Moving people & jobs physically to UK, when people have physical investment in a house, school, bank accounts, investments is not easy. I can see people moving if CCP is literally killing non-protesting citizens like holocaust. On top of it, what is to prevent CCP from blocking people from leaving?

People will take a lot before they physically leave the country. And CCP knows that very well.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by Mediterraneo10 on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @01:37PM (#23704181)
One of the major phenomena of Hong Kong in the 1980s and early 1990s was families getting out if they could afford it, because everyone was nervous about the Chinese handover. This wave of emigration even plays a role in contemporary Hong Kong film of the era like Chungking Express. And even before the fears of the handover, many educated HKers were emigrating to the US for the sake of higher wages.

Yes, HKers have ties to HK that are a hassle to break, but plenty of people have broken them and up and left.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by magicsmoke on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @02:53PM (#23705050)
Most HKers are descended from mainland Chinese that crossed the border after WW2 in the 50s and 60s. Just mirroring their ancestor's footsteps.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by hungryhobo on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:36PM (#23703395)
The sentiment in the mainland is more or less get out and leave the us the land
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by mytailorisrich on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @12:28PM (#23703300)
To be honest I think that the Chinese government would not care or actually be quite OK with it.

Indeed, who would leave HK? Arguably the anti-CCP, the "troublemakers". So that'd mean less 'trouble' in HK and there is a large supply of mainlanders happy to move to HK.

Obviously the Chinese government will officially be outraged but privately they may think good riddance.

Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by nangz on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @03:01PM (#23705133)
Talking to a Chinese friend who is quite pro-CCP, they are pissed that UK is offering this and say that mass emigration of HKers would be a major loss of face for the CCP.
Re:Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents by mytailorisrich on Thursday July 02, 2020 @04:36AM (#23711181)
Yes, but that does not mean there would not be a silver lining.

This offer of residency is political and possibly symbolically negative for China, but in practical terms it does not hurt China at all.