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Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by opportune on Friday June 26, 2020 @01:45AM (#23649064)
I have been playing dwarf fortress for about 7-8 years. If anybody has any questions feel free to ask me.

I think the difficulty of learning the game is overstated: if you follow a tutorial, use a graphics pack, and use dwarf therapist (dwarf therapist is a must, most experienced players also use this because it's just a better UI) I think you can get the hang of the game in a few hours of play time. Probably the biggest barrier to learning the game is the UX but if you're a programmer that will be much easier to learn. I recommend https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Quickstart_gu... and https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Dwarf_fortres... as guides, and I recommend downloading the "Lazy Newb Pack" version compatible with your operating system, as it makes switching graphics and managing utilities/settings very easy.

Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by shultays on Friday June 26, 2020 @05:33AM (#23650228)
Learning the gameplay is reading a related wikipage, which is acceptable. The hard/annoying part is learning UX. It really shouldn't be that complicated. Talking to people in adventure mode, managing jobs (as you said, dwarf therapist is practically a must since the base interface is just horrible), managing armies, hospitals... everything is a chore and you need a tutorial for everything. And every UX in game is different.

To dig for example. You have to create a designation for it. But how do you know that unless you watched a video/read a tutorial? On top of that if something is wrong, the game gives you very little clue. Do you have a dwarf with digging task? Is he available? Does he have pick? Can he pathfind? The game gives you no answer other than not initiating the digging (edit actually my bad, i think it gives you some logs for some cases.). Stuff like that is a hard barrier for most players and they won't be able to continue unless they are really committed.

Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by rashkov on Friday June 26, 2020 @08:32AM (#23651233)
There’s a nice example of someone coming up with a good UX for this game, in the form of an iOS app that lets you play against a remote instance of DF called DF Remote (http://mifki.com/df/). I learned about it here on HN and I’ve found it to be a really impressive example of what the UX could be like. It’s not a 100% complete UI — but what’s there is pretty consistent and intuitive.
Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by astrobe_ on Friday June 26, 2020 @08:05AM (#23651038)
> Stuff like that is a hard barrier for most players and they won't be able to continue unless they are really committed.

Free software has a price too, in terms of efforts the user has to spend on dealing with issues and shortcomings.

Pay. Or do not pay. But there is no bargain.

Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by tetris11 on Friday June 26, 2020 @03:51AM (#23649722)
I found that you get used to the ascii after a while. Now I dont even see the code, just blonde, brunette, redhead, quantum stockpile...
Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by opportune on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:22AM (#23649870)
Yeah, once you get accustomed to the tilesets for a bit it becomes trivial to switch to ascii. But I think it's nice to learn using the tileset because it's usually pretty clear what something is.
Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by csunbird on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:25AM (#23649878)
I think the joke went flying over your head.

Edit: It is a Matrix reference, where Neo asks Tank if he can understand what is going on by just looking at the green characters whizzing in the screen. He answers "You get used to it after a while. ... For example, I see blondes, brunettes, redheads ... "

Edit 2: I guess I remembered it wrong, it was Cypher!

Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by opportune on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:29AM (#23649898)
I figured it was a half-joke half-serious comment so I responded to the serious part
Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by Moru on Friday June 26, 2020 @02:20PM (#23655195)
Except for anyone playing Hack or Dwarf Fortress or any other ascii based game it's not a joke, it's reality.
Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by Alekhine on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:36AM (#23649934)
Small nitpick, it was Cipher, not Tank.
Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by cyberfart on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:26AM (#23653056)
Smaller nitpick, it was Cypher.
Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by numlock86 on Friday June 26, 2020 @06:22AM (#23650441)
Weirdly enough, they make that same joke in the video within the first few minutes.
Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by cletus on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:49AM (#23650004)
A few years ago i tried to get into this. Like I really tried. I too installed and used Dwarf Therapist.

here's where I struggled: I still wouldn't have the hang of managing the dwarves I had and then a new crop would come along. Even with all these tools it quickly descended into me not having any idea who was doing what or why. Or why they weren't doing the things I was asking them to do.

A lot of the things seemed way too roundabout to me too. Like I'd have chickens (or were they ducks? I forget) and I was attempting to breed them. But the whole process of making egg-laying boxes or nests or whatever was tedious and then you had to lock the door to stop the dwarves coming in and taking the eggs.

Likewise, i found the process of feeding the dwarves hard to manage largely because I couldn't easily figure out if there was any food, whether that was because no one was making any or that it was simply all getting eaten. Was it an issue of not having room to stockpile food? Or was the dwarf who could make food doing something else (possibly because he was the only person who could do that or he just happened to be the one who'd picked up the pick for some reason)?

So I never got to that point where I felt like I had a good grasp of my colony as a coherent unit and could then engage in flights of fancy.

I think the last time I tried I then got a monster invading and I hadn't figured out military yet. That was a whole new system to learn and I just lacked the motivation so stopped and never went back.

Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by intended on Friday June 26, 2020 @08:06AM (#23651047)
There’s a very deep lesson in Dwarf Forts motto of loosing is fun.

I’ve struggled to embrace it because my habit is defensive safe playing. In other words “succeeding”- beating your enemies without suffering a loss or misfortune and never having to deal with jank.

My second fort blew up to a yellow “i” which I had no clue was a fire imp (2d DF era volcano embark.)

But I got lucky and found the ascii explosion of ascii booze barrels fascinating.

Embracing that pain makes all the stories of DF interesting. This does include just letting things blow up because you didn’t get the interface and just enjoying the situation you are in.

To a large extent, the new tutorials and helpful community have eroded that ideal, the long learning curve have you a crucial part of the DF experience - loosing is fun.

I have never been able to fully capture the point or explain how fundamental it is to appreciating the game and how it changes your enjoyment of things.

Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by htns on Friday June 26, 2020 @07:29AM (#23650804)
Tools like Dwarf Therapist might give the impression that labor assignments actually matter a lot in the game, but really workers are really productive and a full-grown fortress of 200 dwarves can be easily run by under 10 workers. You could assign all your labors in the embarking screen, assign the first few arrivals as farmers and miners, and all the rest can be left to idle, or drafted into the military, or made scholars or priests or entertainers.

The likely reason for there not being food is underproduction. Causes of that could be not having enabled planting for every season, planting textile crops or crops that need to be processed before they are edible (if the textile crop fields are too large it might be fine on embark when you have only 5 seeds, but end up using up all planting time once the seed count is high), lacking seeds, perhaps from cooking the plants directly (cooking does not give back seeds), or being bottlenecked on field size or planter count. Food will rot if not in a food stockpile, but the rate is pretty slow and easy to outproduce, also if underground the rot will produce miasma making it easy to notice. The next likely reason is that a single dwarf might have become unable to path to food. In such a case the dwarf is likely walled off from the fortress in either the caverns or the surface, because anywhere else there wouldn't be water and they would die of dehydration first. Disabling web gathering at game start helps prevent dwarves being stranded in the caverns. It's also possible all food was forbidden or there was an active civilian alert.

It's a bit complex in that there are many ways to fail, but again the winning formula is simple. For me the learning curve was first giving up because I didn't even know what I was looking at or that z-levels existed, and then a year or two later watching a video tutorial that quickly laid down all the basics, and finding the game relaxing to play after that. Unfortunately I don't remember what the tutorial was and some tutorials out there are pretty mediocre, e.g. anything that recommends making a refuse stockpile outside is not adequately conveying that sealing off your fortress from the outside world is key, and IMO building an indoors well should be mentioned as something you need to do even if the process's not covered.

Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by opportune on Friday June 26, 2020 @05:27AM (#23650193)
You can cap the migrant waves by setting a max dwarf limit in the LNP configurations. The first two migrant waves are (or were) hard-coded so if you set the limit very low you would potentially go over it. But if you set the limit to like 60, you wouldn't get repeated huge wages.

To make sure they're doing what you want them to do, have them "specialize" into professions. Leave a large bulk of low-skill labor for hauling, and try to keep the number of idle dwarves low (it shows up in the corner and you can inspect with 'u' from the main menu).

Yeah, the initial set up process for industries like eggs take a bit of getting used to. I actually usually have my craftsdwarf start building nest boxes as soon as I've mined out enough stone. You can also selectively 'forbid' individual clutches of eggs rather than locking the door by selecting them with q and going to the nestbox (or t, I forget) and hitting f after scrolling down to the eggs.

For food, it sounds like your issue was not knowing the UI. If you have a bookeeper (set with 'n'->bookeeper, change granularity with 's') with an office they will automatically keep track of your food, which you can check with z->kitchen or z->stocks. You should use a stockpile for food because it prevents food from rotting and keeps it in convenient locations. You can make one with p->f although when just starting a fortress you might instead want to create a general stockpile with p->t(select most things except refuse and stone)->c. Regarding the food production, it's good to limit dwarves in essential industries/positions to have all labors except their particular specialty disabled, including all hauling, and then manage tasks so that those dwarves are not left idle.

Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by yvdriess on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:10AM (#23649805)
I was surprised how fast the (frequently inconsistent) keyboard commands just get into your fingers, where you don't think about it anymore.

Similarly for the graphics, and that applies to games in general. You really stop noticing the graphics around ~30mins into a session, because you're running this asynchronous simulation in your head that only needs minimal information to update. That might be a reason why we remember games we played a long time ago being a lot prettier or detailed.

Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by intended on Friday June 26, 2020 @07:58AM (#23650998)
Dwarf fortress are an example I used to bring up in some discussions on UI UX.

You are just far more productive with a keyboard, especially once the commands are in muscle memory.

Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by ruste on Friday June 26, 2020 @09:46AM (#23651910)
I think it's a really important consideration of design that gets forgotten about in the name of "useability" and "discoverability". With a little practice a consistent keyboard interface is very fast. _Nobody_ is fast with a mouse.
Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by kagbor on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:06AM (#23649791)
So I have to install 2 third-party tools and follow 2+ third-party tutorials/guides for a few hours before I can potentially start enjoying the game.

Doesn't sound overstated at all...

Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by yvdriess on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:12AM (#23649815)
You can just play the base game as is. The Lazy Newb Pack is simply a launcher where you can checkbox the third party graphics and tool options.
Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by distances on Friday June 26, 2020 @05:12AM (#23650110)
There are lots of games with some learning curve. When starting with Crusader Kings II, I spent more time reading the game wiki than actually playing the game.
Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by bregma on Friday June 26, 2020 @07:30AM (#23650808)
Not to mention doing a detailed study of the geography and history of medieval feudal Europe, including just what the heck agnatic-cognatic gavelkind succession is and that the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, Roman, nor an empire.

Some days I prefer a sickly in-bred imbecile devil-worshipping king, and some days I just want to deal with short sturdy creatures fond of drink and industry.

Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by blaser-waffle on Friday June 26, 2020 @09:25AM (#23651673)
Amen. It's deep, and the UI is complex.

And then there is the regular updates/DLC thing, which often adds whole new, poorly explained features.

Still a lot of fun though. Breath Status: Held for CKIII

Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by slothtrop on Friday June 26, 2020 @09:37AM (#23651791)
I still don't understand CKII. Believe I had tried noob island last, it seemed comprised of waiting for things then being uncertain whether I'm skipping time too much or too little. I must have invaded a vassal as per tutorial 2-3 times and failing.
Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by keeganpoppen on Friday June 26, 2020 @01:33PM (#23654587)
hell, reading the wiki is half the fun!
Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by opportune on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:21AM (#23649864)
It's only a few hours. That's how long it takes to learn many games.
Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by Supermancho on Friday June 26, 2020 @01:20PM (#23654440)
I appreciate his effort (having played for decades), but that aside...the difficulty is knowing what's wrong and why something is happening.

The horrid military UI is inherent to the game. Bugs that are left for months (if not years) like the inability for seiges to enter your site (hiding just offscreen, slowly killing your CPU) or the current persistent bad memories, often makes aspects of the game unplayable WITHOUT the complexity and issues with mods that are necessary. Yes you can play the game in ASCII or with chopsticks or blindfolded with someone barking at what you need to do, but complexity and difficulty is not commensurate with fun or depth. DF is not the only game to fall into this trap.

DF has depth outside of the UI/setup/bugs, but onboarding is what Tarn is addressing (partly) in the Steam release. Good.

I think the difficulty of learning the game is on point.

Re:Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origin... by throwaway4666 on Friday June 26, 2020 @08:41AM (#23651315)
DF is much more forgiving and easier than it used to be. Follow the wiki, setup DFHack for a lot of bugfixes and UI improvements and you're pretty much set. You don't even need Therapist anymore when you have the in-game labor manager. Yeah there's a bit of fiddling involved but I can't possibly believe this can be a problem for Hacker News readers.