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Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by lisper on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:04AM (#22968715)
I can't speak to pizza, but I have an espresso story to tell.

One of my favorite things about going to Italy is the quality of the coffee. I really like extreme dark roast (your typical American diner coffee doesn't even count as coffee in my book). In Italy you can go into pretty much any coffee shop and come away with a top-quality espresso. (Don't even get me started on Starbucks.) It's a taste I inherited from my parents, who have European roots.

Now, my parents are seriously old-school. They still live in the house I grew up in, a house they bought new in 1975 and pretty much never updated. It still has the original flower-pattern wall paper. Walking into their house today feels like stepping into a time machine that transports you to an episode of the Brady Bunch. And in their kitchen is a 40-year-old Mr. Coffee which my father loves to futz with. On a good day he can coax it into producing an acceptable cup of joe, but that's about it. So for their 50th anniversary I decided I was going to buy them a proper espresso machine.

Now, I know next to nothing about espresso except that I love to drink it, so I started doing some homework and very soon got lost in a morass of coffee geekdom. The range of options available in the espresso machine market is truly mind-boggling, as are the prices. I didn't mind dropping some serious coin (this was their 50th anniversary after all) but I wanted to make sure I was actually getting something for my money. So I decided to do some experiments.

At the time I worked in a co-working office that had a high-end espresso machine (retail price $5000) and several Italians so I asked one of them to show me how to make a proper espresso. I wanted to use the espresso that came out of the office machine as a baseline and compare it to what I could make on a less expensive machine to see if the machine actually made a difference. "The first thing you have to do," he told me, "is to get the right beans. You have to go to this little specialty shop that's a half-hour drive away and get this particular brand of beans..." which, of course, cost $50 a pound or something absurd like that. But I love my parents, so I dutifully complied.

Proper beanage having been procured, we spent several hours brewing espresso with just about every possible variation on the theme you could imagine. Different grinds (we had a high-end burr grinder in the office too), different packings, different machine settings. Not once did we manage to produce a cup that any of us considered even remotely drinkable. It was all acidic and awful, probably because the machine had never been cleaned since it was installed god-only-knows how many years before.

I ended up getting them a Keurig. I got one for myself too. It makes a decent cup of coffee, but nothing compared to what you find in Italy. It is still a mystery to me how the Italians manage to produce such consistently good coffee, but only in Italy. When they come to the U.S. they seem to lose the touch. Maybe there's something in the water.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by gregkerzhner on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:24AM (#22968971)
I don't know much about espresso, but the pourover coffee I make at home is certainly much higher quality than a Keurig machine. The beans are the most important part - you should get them roasted within the last few weeks.

Even the fanciest pourover funnel costs only 50 dollars, but you can certainly get by with a cheap plastic one for a few bucks. If you want to go full hipster, you will also need a temperature controlled electric kettle, and a scale to exactly portion out your coffee.

Then of course there is the grinder. If you are patient enough to hand grind, you can get a Hario ceramic manual grinder for $50 that produces a high quality grind. Otherwise, a quality electric grinder will be more expensive.

All and all, a hipster pourover setup will cost you less than $500 if you go all in. I don't use a scale, a temperature control, or a fancy grinder - I just use a cheap grinder and eyeball my beans, while pouring boiled water over them, so my whole setup cost me about $50 dollars. That coffee still blows the pants off Keurig any day of the week, and I can compost my filters so I am not filling a hole in our planet with a tiny plastic cup every time I want a coffee.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by karatestomp on Friday April 24, 2020 @12:01PM (#22969473)
> The beans are the most important part - you should get them roasted within the last few weeks.

That's the key. When I buy mid-range beans (usually what I do—the good stuff's expensive) my pourovers are really just manual drip coffee. Fine, but just... coffee. When I use really good beans, though? It's a whole different drink. All kinds of nuance and delicate flavors.

The tiers I've found are basically: truly bad coffee; a very large range of coffees that pretty much all just taste like "alright coffee" and for me this goes as low as Kirkland-brand ground coffee and as high as... well, the "nicest" whole-bean coffee Costco sells, differentiated mostly by bitterness levels or burntness; and then the good stuff that doesn't even really belong in the same category of product as the rest, purchased in small quantities, very freshly roasted.

It could well be that Italy's espresso beans are much higher quality at the same price than those in the US. That's the case for some other things in other countries—rich ones, even, not just places with much lower GDP/capita (I still don't get why we can't seem to bake a good loaf of bread at a reasonable price, which also has the effect that our sandwiches tend to either suck or be really expensive—see also, cheese).

> and a scale to exactly portion out your coffee.

You're gonna want a scale if you do much cooking, anyway. Especially baking.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by omnimus on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:52PM (#22972220)
As european coffee fan Italys coffee is just overrated. The lowest quality, might be a bit better than elsewhere but best rosteries and cafes are generally in London, Berlin (number of great cafes and roasters there are of the charts) and scandinavia. But you will find really good cafes in any bigger city (including Italy). And even quality roasters are decentralized.

The problem is not so much roasting but getting the beans. Many roasters just wont get to the best stuff from Africa because of limited supply so it makes sense that richer countries snatch the material because they can charge more.

I can imagine US also can afford the best beans so i bet the high high quality is pretty top notch but ive never had US coffe in my life.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by gregkerzhner on Friday April 24, 2020 @04:06PM (#22972344)
I think both with coffee and beer there are two classes of establishment - the average city cafe or bar, and then the specialty "artisanal" establishment in big cities. My guess would be that the coffee at an average Italian town square bar is better than the same coffee at a coffee shop in Spain or France or the USA. However, it's not going to be anywhere on par with a specialty coffee shop in Manhattan that has searched the world and handpicked its bean flavor profiles to perfection.

It's the same thing with beer and Germany. The average beer in a random town brewery somewhere in Germany is tastier than a Budweiser, but as a beer lover, I would much rather end up at a beer bar with a 100 different beers on tap in a place like London or New York.

The interesting twist with Germany is that the same beer purity laws that originally allowed them to become a beer leader in the world are now holding them back in the craft beer revolution.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by notJim on Friday April 24, 2020 @05:38PM (#22973185)
From my experience, it's more about culture and expectations than anything. You'll occasionally get a shop that can stand above its city, but eventually it'll regress to the mean. Here in the PNW you can walk into any coffee shop and get a good coffee about 50–75% of the time. In NYC, I'd say it's more like 10%. I think it's because people in NYC don't value coffee very much, or care only superficially. On the flipside, even shitty bagels in NYC are better than most of what you can get here. I hated all the coffee I had in France, but it might be because they prefer a bitter cup to be drunk with sugar, rather than the black coffee we drink in the US.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by omnimus on Friday April 24, 2020 @05:13PM (#22972967)
Sad truth is that average Italian town square bar coffee will probably be the exact same global shit brand coffee as in German town square town. If they are different it has to do more with local traditions maybe more skill or higher quality machine.

But yeah that also means that there is someone obsesive in every bigger city trying to get the best stuff world has to offer.

In so many ways the tradition in italy holds it back in coffe world and holds Germany in beer world. But even the German/Czech beer purity laws are not the real problem its the tradition. It's hard to inovate when beer is super popular but everybody thinks beer equals lager. It's conservatism.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by karatestomp on Friday April 24, 2020 @05:07PM (#22972905)
> The interesting twist with Germany is that the same beer purity laws that originally allowed them to become a beer leader in the world are now holding them back in the craft beer revolution.

They can break those rules all they want and just not call what they're making "beer", right?

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by omnimus on Friday April 24, 2020 @05:30PM (#22973124)
Yes. And its not like "craft" beer is somehow harder to make than lagers. Largers are actually one of the most complicated to brew and smaller German breweries do make wonderfuly crazy craft beers.

Besides traditions the craft beer "revolution" is due to hops. US climate and innovation brought new hop varieties that are crutial. To make craft beer you pretty much have to import US hops.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by tigershark on Friday April 24, 2020 @06:03PM (#22973387)
Absolutely not. Source: I’m Italian, I live in London, been to Berlin a couple of times, in the best case you can get something drinkable but nothing comparable to a nice espresso in Italy. I was actually surprised to find a pretty nice illy coffe in Kobe train station, but then I also found a very good Naples pizza in that city.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by 2dvisio on Saturday April 25, 2020 @08:47AM (#22977692)
I relate to this 100%. Same background, lived in several places before ending up in London.

You can find good roasted coffee of many types in most of these places.

But if you need an espresso or any other Italian styled coffe. Nothing can beat Italy.

I admit one exception: Portugal. In a long trip to Lisbon I’ve done I had some of the best coffee there !

Edit: still using my 18yr old Bialetti for most of my coffee here and buying coffee when going back occasionally (ever brought back a trolley full of coffe through airport security checks?). Only reliable way so far to have decent coffee.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by omnimus on Saturday April 25, 2020 @05:59PM (#22981942)
It must be different expectations about what is a good coffee.

London is i think the original place from where high end coffe culture spread out to europe and where idea of small independent roasters came from.

I often buy coffee from London when i can get it. Square Mile, Has Bean, Union Coffee, Caravan coffee all mostly highest quality stuff.

Funnily enough i've lived in portugal for a while and coffee was so bad i had hard time finding good beans. Luckily some cafes were importing stuff but no roasters.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by omnimus on Saturday April 25, 2020 @06:05PM (#22981985)
Illy? Are you serious? Megabrand corporation that often uses mix of Arabica and Robusta not even full Arabica (meaning blend of cheapest cofee).

Look around a bit you can for sure find awesome cafes in London. If not there than probably nowhere. I posted few of my fav London roasteries to comment under this one.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by sevencolors on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:26PM (#22971955)
Last month I got a simple pour over setup that's not full-hipster. Coffee is 10x better than a Keurig or instant coffee. Both of which i have. Maybe it's partially being trapped in house but it's bordering on better than the coffee shops nearby.

Setup:

Hario v60 ~ $20

Pour Over Filter ~ $10

Grinder - $30 (already had)

Kitchen Scale - $10 (already had)

This guide is a good start: https://www.stumptowncoffee.com/brew-guides/v60

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by gregkerzhner on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:48PM (#22972178)
Nice, thats a good guide!

I dare say that if you are capable of following instructions, and have $15 to invest into a freshly roasted bag of beans from a coffee shop, then your coffee is exactly the same quality as to what you would get from a high end coffee shop. The only difference is that the coffee shop will charge you up to 5 dollars for a fancy pourover, while your 15 dollar bag of beans will last you several weeks.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by sevencolors on Monday April 27, 2020 @03:38PM (#22999165)
Oh yes! That is a great point, I've been buying from local roasters/shops and it definitely makes a difference
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by dep_b on Saturday April 25, 2020 @05:29AM (#22976871)
Having a water cooker that is accurate up to the degree is essential too. I'm experimenting with different temperatures and it's a huge difference. Some coffee is nicer at 91c, some of it is better at 93c.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by sevencolors on Monday April 27, 2020 @03:40PM (#22999191)
I've been eyeing a electric kettle. Currently just stove kettle and a thermometer get me 90% there :)
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by lisper on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:35AM (#22969105)
I ended up with both a Keurig and a Cuisinart DCC-450BK. The Cuisinart makes better coffee (despite its incredibly cheesy construction), but the Keurig is faster so I'll typically use one in the morning and the other in the afternoon. I've found I don't get a lot of value from high-end beans. My favorite coffee is Seattle's Best Post Alley Blend. But my coffee heart will always be in Italy. (Actually, Philz is pretty good too.)
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by castillar76 on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:35AM (#22969104)
If you're looking for something better for them/you (and ecologically better too--the Keurigs are pretty bad for that), try an Aeropress. It's absurdly inexpensive, but makes easily the best coffee I've had outside of crazy high-end shops, and it's really easy to use. It consistently gets high marks from coffee geeks.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by clairegraham on Friday April 24, 2020 @01:33PM (#22970766)
I have an Aeropress, Chemex, and a Hario V60 and I still prefer the Aeropress simply because it's so consistent (it is also the best one to travel with). When you get a great cup on the Chemex/V60, it's really nice, but I find it's harder to nail down a consistently great cup of coffee every single time on the others.

I think Aeropress easily rivals or beats a cup of coffee I've had a "great" coffee shops, if you use good beans. But even grocery store coffee is better in the Aeropress than a cheap auto-drip machine.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by castillar76 on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:49PM (#22972189)
Agreed: the consistency is really solid. I've never had a bad cup of coffee from my Aeropress, even when using cheap beans. I do still have a drip coffeemaker at home (weirdly, Oxo makes a terrific drip coffeemaker that's not expensive but really good), but that's mostly because I fix coffee for three-to-four people in the morning so a full carafe is a lot easier than a cup at a time. If I'm just making it for me, Aeropress all the way.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by albmoriconi on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:13AM (#22968827)
One thing I always found extremely funny is that, while Italy is known everywhere for its love of the espresso (don't get me started on the incredible amount of Italian and especially Neapolitan songs about coffee!), most of us actually do our coffe at home using a simple moka pot [1]. Our grandmothers mostly used the "napoletana" [2] instead, I don't particularly like it but to each their own.

It's such an ordinary, day to day gesture, making a moka when you have a little bit of free time, that I have yet to find an Italian "coffee geek".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moka_pot [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_flip_coffee_pot

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by kimi on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:50PM (#22972203)
One could also say that someone in Italy who considers any coffee worth drinking would be considered insane.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by CraneWorm on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:13AM (#22968837)
> It is still a mystery to me how the Italians manage to produce such consistently good coffee

I thought they use moka pots. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moka_pot

Easy to clean, easy to use, doesn't burn the coffee, like a percolator inevitably will.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by tomcooks on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:47AM (#22969276)
The reason why moka pot is so famous has also to do with massive post-war production. Alessi and Bialetti used to make moka pots with equipment originally used to produce mortar shells for WW2. The main difference between the Alessi and Bialetti coffee makers were that the latter used the traditional 8 sided shape which aided in screwing-unscrewing.

Renato Bialetti, which I was lucky enough to greet, got his ashes put in an oversized moka pot, which was blessed during his funeral[0]. He was known for driving some of his factory workers out for lunch on Fridays, on his expensive car.

[0] https://www.corriere.it/cronache/16_febbraio_16/funerali-bia...

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by CraneWorm on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:59AM (#22969445)
> got his ashes put in an oversized moka pot

basket or collecting chamber? I hope they didn't brew it afterwards...

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by diroussel on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:46AM (#22969247)
Yes, they do, except they call it a caffettiera. Every house in italy I've been to has one or more. This is in the north, the south might be different. But it's not the same as an espresso machine.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by dep_b on Saturday April 25, 2020 @05:34AM (#22976898)
Hmmm burns the coffee easily when used wrong. You need to be right there to control the temperature and cool it off immediately once the water runs out.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by kimi on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:51AM (#22969320)
Nespresso. That's what Italians drink at home today. Easy peasy, always good. Even my relatives in Naples drink it. :)
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by boris on Friday April 24, 2020 @12:05PM (#22969537)
Second that. As much as I want to believe a $10k La Marzocco is absolutely essential to good espresso, a $100 Nespresso machine and Kazaar roast is the best espresso I've ever had.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by ofrzeta on Friday April 24, 2020 @02:03PM (#22971152)
You don't need to spend 10k for good espresso. Get a used portafilter machine, a grinder and good beans. I used to drink Nespresso but gave up because of the huge amount of waste. Now I am happy with my Saeco Aroma (old model, bought for 150 euros). Actually I even went back to hand grinding with my Hario grinder some month ago. I'll take the time and also have some workout :)
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by kimi on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:45PM (#22972152)
Maybe not "the best" - but for 30 cents a pop, it's so easy, and it's always good. Of course what you drink at caffe Mexico in Naples is a different thing, maybe a different planet; on the other hand,there are whole countries and maybe whole continents where your trusty Nespresso will brew the best coffee.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by flyinglizard on Friday April 24, 2020 @01:40PM (#22970849)
You should try their Inspirazione Napoli roasts if you haven’t. Wonderful.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by boris on Saturday April 25, 2020 @02:07AM (#22976024)
Yes, just tried it the other day and it's great. Not a hint of acidity. Now need to decide which one I like best.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by lisper on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:53AM (#22969354)
Nooooooo!
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by kimi on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:46PM (#22972163)
You won't believe it. They even queue up at Esselunga to buy Starbucks pods for their Nespresso machine....
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by lisper on Friday April 24, 2020 @05:08PM (#22972918)
> Starbucks pods

NOOOOO!!!

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by atombender on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:56PM (#22972257)
It's odd that you went from one end of the spectrum (trying to refine your technique and failing) to the complete opposite (a Keurig). Surely there's a middle ground.

For example, the Rancilio Silvia [1] is known to be one of the best and most tweakable/hackable home machines for manually brewed espresso. It can make great Italian espresso out of the box, but there's also a healthy community around it that hacks the internals to brew at better temperatures and so on. It's also very affordable.

Personally, I have a Jura Ena, because I like just pressing one button to get my coffee, and it's fantastic.

[1] https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/rancilio-silvia-espresso-m...

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by 01100011 on Friday April 24, 2020 @04:17PM (#22972456)
I used to have a Gaggia Classic with an updated steam wand that did pretty well. I think it ranks well against the Racillio and is cheaper. It's basically the cheapest decent machine you can buy, AFAIK. People also hack it, with PID controller mods and such.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by w3ll_w3ll_w3ll on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:16AM (#22968865)
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by joefourier on Friday April 24, 2020 @01:56PM (#22971058)
Your story is very upsetting for people who enjoy espresso. Your issue was almost certainly with your espresso machine, which likely had severe issues with maintenance.

I grew up with a generic espresso machine (pre-Nespresso, so one where you had to grind and compact the beans yourself) and I could make a decent cup from the age of 14. This was with North-American water and beans of average price and quality.

And now you have a plethora of capsule-based espresso machines with identical convenience to a Keurig, from Nespresso to Caffitaly.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by wastedhours on Friday April 24, 2020 @12:20PM (#22969746)
You often get really acidic brews from speciality roasted beans because they err on the side of not pushing through the second crack and serve earlier in the roasted life before some of the gas has escaped. Were the beans really black and oily or have a more browny tinge?
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by lisper on Friday April 24, 2020 @12:40PM (#22970034)
This was many years ago so my memory of such details is quite fuzzy, but to the best of my recollection they were not oily. I remember being a little surprised by that.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by theelous3 on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:46AM (#22969244)
I found the coffee in italy unremarkable compared to any other decent cafe in any of dozen random european countries.

There are three cafes local to me that are better than pretty much anything you'd get in italy.

Italian espresso is just... extremely plain. Decent, but boring.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by kelw22 on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:21PM (#22975274)
“ It was all acidic and awful, probably because the machine had never been cleaned since it was installed god-only-knows how many years before.”

This. This was your problem. I have a $2k Rocket Milano (not the fanciest, but not bad), and I clean it thoroughly every couple weeks. It makes a world of difference each time I do, and the first pulls after putting in the effort are wonderful.

Of course, I also spent nearly a year before I found decent beans near me.

Cheers and good luck!

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by toohotatopic on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:37AM (#22969138)
Those Italians in your coworker space, were they baristas or office workers? I would expect that Italians in Italy also cannot produce perfect espresso unless they made it their profession.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by pengaru on Friday April 24, 2020 @01:50PM (#22970965)
You don't understand Italian culture.

I grew up in an Italian household with both parents Italian immigrants and have a large extended Italian family.

It would have been an embarrassment to be unable to make a quality espresso.

I never drank any coffee/espresso beverages growing up and it was seen as a rejection of my family's culture, yet despite not consuming it I still was taught how to make espresso and would do it regularly for my parents.

Cuisine is a big part of Italian culture. We didn't go to restaurants because they made food better than we did at home because they were professionals, we'd go to give my mother a break and every time it was like the restaurant was on trial with my mother pointing out every damn thing that was done worse than had she made it.

Edit:

Just wanted to add that having been raised in that environment where authentic home-cooked delicious food was made every day, I can't go to Italian restaurants anymore, not in the US. It's completely ruined it. There were no professional cooks or barristas under that roof, just OG Italians.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by dariosalvi78 on Saturday April 25, 2020 @03:10PM (#22980503)
In Naples, where I am from, if you work in a bar you're not allowed to touch the espresso machine unless you have worked there for at least 1 year. Maybe, only then, you could start asking questions about how to use it. So, I agree, you don't learn how to use those things unless you have worked with them.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by lisper on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:45AM (#22969227)
They were all software engineers.