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Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by gregkerzhner on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:24AM (#22968971)
I don't know much about espresso, but the pourover coffee I make at home is certainly much higher quality than a Keurig machine. The beans are the most important part - you should get them roasted within the last few weeks.

Even the fanciest pourover funnel costs only 50 dollars, but you can certainly get by with a cheap plastic one for a few bucks. If you want to go full hipster, you will also need a temperature controlled electric kettle, and a scale to exactly portion out your coffee.

Then of course there is the grinder. If you are patient enough to hand grind, you can get a Hario ceramic manual grinder for $50 that produces a high quality grind. Otherwise, a quality electric grinder will be more expensive.

All and all, a hipster pourover setup will cost you less than $500 if you go all in. I don't use a scale, a temperature control, or a fancy grinder - I just use a cheap grinder and eyeball my beans, while pouring boiled water over them, so my whole setup cost me about $50 dollars. That coffee still blows the pants off Keurig any day of the week, and I can compost my filters so I am not filling a hole in our planet with a tiny plastic cup every time I want a coffee.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by karatestomp on Friday April 24, 2020 @12:01PM (#22969473)
> The beans are the most important part - you should get them roasted within the last few weeks.

That's the key. When I buy mid-range beans (usually what I do—the good stuff's expensive) my pourovers are really just manual drip coffee. Fine, but just... coffee. When I use really good beans, though? It's a whole different drink. All kinds of nuance and delicate flavors.

The tiers I've found are basically: truly bad coffee; a very large range of coffees that pretty much all just taste like "alright coffee" and for me this goes as low as Kirkland-brand ground coffee and as high as... well, the "nicest" whole-bean coffee Costco sells, differentiated mostly by bitterness levels or burntness; and then the good stuff that doesn't even really belong in the same category of product as the rest, purchased in small quantities, very freshly roasted.

It could well be that Italy's espresso beans are much higher quality at the same price than those in the US. That's the case for some other things in other countries—rich ones, even, not just places with much lower GDP/capita (I still don't get why we can't seem to bake a good loaf of bread at a reasonable price, which also has the effect that our sandwiches tend to either suck or be really expensive—see also, cheese).

> and a scale to exactly portion out your coffee.

You're gonna want a scale if you do much cooking, anyway. Especially baking.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by omnimus on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:52PM (#22972220)
As european coffee fan Italys coffee is just overrated. The lowest quality, might be a bit better than elsewhere but best rosteries and cafes are generally in London, Berlin (number of great cafes and roasters there are of the charts) and scandinavia. But you will find really good cafes in any bigger city (including Italy). And even quality roasters are decentralized.

The problem is not so much roasting but getting the beans. Many roasters just wont get to the best stuff from Africa because of limited supply so it makes sense that richer countries snatch the material because they can charge more.

I can imagine US also can afford the best beans so i bet the high high quality is pretty top notch but ive never had US coffe in my life.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by gregkerzhner on Friday April 24, 2020 @04:06PM (#22972344)
I think both with coffee and beer there are two classes of establishment - the average city cafe or bar, and then the specialty "artisanal" establishment in big cities. My guess would be that the coffee at an average Italian town square bar is better than the same coffee at a coffee shop in Spain or France or the USA. However, it's not going to be anywhere on par with a specialty coffee shop in Manhattan that has searched the world and handpicked its bean flavor profiles to perfection.

It's the same thing with beer and Germany. The average beer in a random town brewery somewhere in Germany is tastier than a Budweiser, but as a beer lover, I would much rather end up at a beer bar with a 100 different beers on tap in a place like London or New York.

The interesting twist with Germany is that the same beer purity laws that originally allowed them to become a beer leader in the world are now holding them back in the craft beer revolution.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by notJim on Friday April 24, 2020 @05:38PM (#22973185)
From my experience, it's more about culture and expectations than anything. You'll occasionally get a shop that can stand above its city, but eventually it'll regress to the mean. Here in the PNW you can walk into any coffee shop and get a good coffee about 50–75% of the time. In NYC, I'd say it's more like 10%. I think it's because people in NYC don't value coffee very much, or care only superficially. On the flipside, even shitty bagels in NYC are better than most of what you can get here. I hated all the coffee I had in France, but it might be because they prefer a bitter cup to be drunk with sugar, rather than the black coffee we drink in the US.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by omnimus on Friday April 24, 2020 @05:13PM (#22972967)
Sad truth is that average Italian town square bar coffee will probably be the exact same global shit brand coffee as in German town square town. If they are different it has to do more with local traditions maybe more skill or higher quality machine.

But yeah that also means that there is someone obsesive in every bigger city trying to get the best stuff world has to offer.

In so many ways the tradition in italy holds it back in coffe world and holds Germany in beer world. But even the German/Czech beer purity laws are not the real problem its the tradition. It's hard to inovate when beer is super popular but everybody thinks beer equals lager. It's conservatism.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by karatestomp on Friday April 24, 2020 @05:07PM (#22972905)
> The interesting twist with Germany is that the same beer purity laws that originally allowed them to become a beer leader in the world are now holding them back in the craft beer revolution.

They can break those rules all they want and just not call what they're making "beer", right?

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by omnimus on Friday April 24, 2020 @05:30PM (#22973124)
Yes. And its not like "craft" beer is somehow harder to make than lagers. Largers are actually one of the most complicated to brew and smaller German breweries do make wonderfuly crazy craft beers.

Besides traditions the craft beer "revolution" is due to hops. US climate and innovation brought new hop varieties that are crutial. To make craft beer you pretty much have to import US hops.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by tigershark on Friday April 24, 2020 @06:03PM (#22973387)
Absolutely not. Source: I’m Italian, I live in London, been to Berlin a couple of times, in the best case you can get something drinkable but nothing comparable to a nice espresso in Italy. I was actually surprised to find a pretty nice illy coffe in Kobe train station, but then I also found a very good Naples pizza in that city.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by 2dvisio on Saturday April 25, 2020 @08:47AM (#22977692)
I relate to this 100%. Same background, lived in several places before ending up in London.

You can find good roasted coffee of many types in most of these places.

But if you need an espresso or any other Italian styled coffe. Nothing can beat Italy.

I admit one exception: Portugal. In a long trip to Lisbon I’ve done I had some of the best coffee there !

Edit: still using my 18yr old Bialetti for most of my coffee here and buying coffee when going back occasionally (ever brought back a trolley full of coffe through airport security checks?). Only reliable way so far to have decent coffee.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by omnimus on Saturday April 25, 2020 @05:59PM (#22981942)
It must be different expectations about what is a good coffee.

London is i think the original place from where high end coffe culture spread out to europe and where idea of small independent roasters came from.

I often buy coffee from London when i can get it. Square Mile, Has Bean, Union Coffee, Caravan coffee all mostly highest quality stuff.

Funnily enough i've lived in portugal for a while and coffee was so bad i had hard time finding good beans. Luckily some cafes were importing stuff but no roasters.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by omnimus on Saturday April 25, 2020 @06:05PM (#22981985)
Illy? Are you serious? Megabrand corporation that often uses mix of Arabica and Robusta not even full Arabica (meaning blend of cheapest cofee).

Look around a bit you can for sure find awesome cafes in London. If not there than probably nowhere. I posted few of my fav London roasteries to comment under this one.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by sevencolors on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:26PM (#22971955)
Last month I got a simple pour over setup that's not full-hipster. Coffee is 10x better than a Keurig or instant coffee. Both of which i have. Maybe it's partially being trapped in house but it's bordering on better than the coffee shops nearby.

Setup:

Hario v60 ~ $20

Pour Over Filter ~ $10

Grinder - $30 (already had)

Kitchen Scale - $10 (already had)

This guide is a good start: https://www.stumptowncoffee.com/brew-guides/v60

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by gregkerzhner on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:48PM (#22972178)
Nice, thats a good guide!

I dare say that if you are capable of following instructions, and have $15 to invest into a freshly roasted bag of beans from a coffee shop, then your coffee is exactly the same quality as to what you would get from a high end coffee shop. The only difference is that the coffee shop will charge you up to 5 dollars for a fancy pourover, while your 15 dollar bag of beans will last you several weeks.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by sevencolors on Monday April 27, 2020 @03:38PM (#22999165)
Oh yes! That is a great point, I've been buying from local roasters/shops and it definitely makes a difference
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by dep_b on Saturday April 25, 2020 @05:29AM (#22976871)
Having a water cooker that is accurate up to the degree is essential too. I'm experimenting with different temperatures and it's a huge difference. Some coffee is nicer at 91c, some of it is better at 93c.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by sevencolors on Monday April 27, 2020 @03:40PM (#22999191)
I've been eyeing a electric kettle. Currently just stove kettle and a thermometer get me 90% there :)
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by lisper on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:35AM (#22969105)
I ended up with both a Keurig and a Cuisinart DCC-450BK. The Cuisinart makes better coffee (despite its incredibly cheesy construction), but the Keurig is faster so I'll typically use one in the morning and the other in the afternoon. I've found I don't get a lot of value from high-end beans. My favorite coffee is Seattle's Best Post Alley Blend. But my coffee heart will always be in Italy. (Actually, Philz is pretty good too.)