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Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by tvanantwerp on Thursday March 19, 2020 @11:37AM (#22628449)
I feel like the problem is less that supply chains are globalized, and more that they aren't redundant. By that I mean, there's too much reliance on China as the primary producer/exporter for countless industries and products. Having just one nation account for such a large share of manufacturing introduces single points of failure. It would be wise to have multiple sources for any given good, especially if it's essential.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by alexose on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:02PM (#22628727)
In my experience, it's not that companies are choosing any one strategy over another. It's more that companies have no idea what their supply chain actually looks like. Only that the widgets show up at their loading dock every week, and that the shipments have always been reliable in the past, so that there's no reason to look any further.

There are often strong disincentives, as well. Nike, for example, got themselves into trouble when parts of their supply chain became public. Many more companies regard their unique supply chain as a competitive advantage. So, even if you should take up the time, effort, and expense to research your own supply chain, there's a high likelihood that your upstream vendors will have no interest in sharing their suppliers with you.

There are exceptions to this. Reportedly Apple has excellent supply chain visibility, but they've achieved it at great effort.

(I'm by no means an expert, but I used to work for sourcemap.com, an MIT startup based around the idea of understanding supply chains end-to-end.)

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by jcims on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:24PM (#22628985)
This is it 100%. I work at a major financial institution and we invest ridiculous amounts of money, effort and, frankly, delay, in understanding our supply chain, its security posture and risk management model. It's a unbelievably gargantuan effort and if it weren't for the scary shit that we find all the time one could easily argue it's a waste.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by transpute on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:03PM (#22629380)
> It's a unbelievably gargantuan effort

Also applies to software supply chains:

https://www.platformsecuritysummit.com/2019/speaker/sherman/

> Today’s software is largely assembled rather than written, and most of the assembly comes from open source components. The creation of components and their inclusion into applications creates a “supply chain” just like in conventional manufacturing. While physical supply chains have well established chains-of-custody to establish properties like refrigeration maintenance, authenticity or spoilage avoidance, the software supply chain is very much a wild, wild west, filled with vulnerabilities that can be (and are) inadvertently inserted into applications. As supply chain risk and mitigations are being explored by government and academia, a larger attack surface is being uncovered that needs to be addressed.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by jcims on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:28PM (#22629641)
We do that too. :)
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by hinkley on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:00PM (#22630509)
I mean, imagine you have a 3 year contract with a supplier, and when you go to renew they get cagey and seem to be giving you the runaround. Later you find out that it's because they already signed a contract with one of your competitors that begins the day after your old contract expires.

We laugh about golf and Vegas visits, but it's really hard to stab someone in the back when you're used to looking them in the eye. If they're just some suit you meet once every three years? Fuck 'em.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by victor9000 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:47PM (#22629239)
What problems have you encountered that others should avoid?
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by Spooky23 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:15PM (#22629535)
Over the years, I have run into:

- Counterfeit components, like memory out of spec that creates scaled failures.

- Fake products from the channel.

- Fundamental mistruths with regard to how services are delivered.

- Poor operational practices for maintaining SLA, especially for off-shored services. Those ops folks will move mountains to meet the minimum standard of "up", but will allow problems to fester.

- Fraud. Fake on-site employees sending work back to a boiler room with people actually doing the work.

- Fraud. Named users actually being fake people sharing a credential. In one case, a colleague in a manufacturing case discovered this when he accidentally received a link to an open video stream of a MFA token.

- Fraud. Stuffing fake or inferior products into orders. Example: Order new laptops, find a bunch of refurbs in the pallets.

Basically, people suck and if you primarily make purchasing decisions based on price, and you care about what you are buying, you need to treat the counter-party as a potentially hostile actor and assume that you are going to be ripped off.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by 6510 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @04:28PM (#22631368)
I read when having bicycle frames made in Taiwan you get the best price/quality ratio if you have a permanent onsite observer in the factory. That guy doesn't really do anything but they wont cut corners if he is around.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by notyourday on Thursday March 19, 2020 @06:25PM (#22632401)
You get what you pay for. If you aren't paying for the guy to be the observer there's no one to observe.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by dredmorbius on Thursday March 19, 2020 @09:26PM (#22633637)
You don't get what you pay for.

But generally value derives from multiple independent credible verifiable audit mechanisms.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by notyourday on Friday March 20, 2020 @08:13AM (#22636904)
> You don't get what you pay for.

Yes you do. You get exactly what you pay for. If you pay for a dozen of German inspectors who think Chinese factory produces junk that is outside the spec, a dozen of German inspectors with that attitude are going to do inspections. If you do no want to pay those German inspectors, you are not going to get those inspections.

In most of the cases companies do not want to pay for it. Apple manufactures amazing iPhones in China. Apple iPhones easily last 5-6 years. Blu manufactures crappy Android phones. They barely last a year. Apple's iphones cost more to manufacture than Blu phones sell for.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by Spooky23 on Friday March 20, 2020 @10:07AM (#22637596)
You don’t if you just throw money at it.

But when you build ongoing relationships, you get benefits from not pushing for the bottom dollar at all costs.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by eru on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:26AM (#22634876)
Or from reputation.

A company with a reputation for quality can charge more, because you don't need observers and can just rely on them. And they want to deliver on the reputation, so that they can keep milking it.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by dredmorbius on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:32AM (#22634909)
The value of trust.

JS Mill has some interesting observations going back a ways.

Auditing is still recommended.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by eru on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:51AM (#22635014)
Definitely, auditing is one way to speed up the process.

Ignoring auditing for a moment:

The trustworthy reputation is quicker to build, if the quality of the product is easy to ascertain quickly.

But if you are a company in a sector where that's not possible, the reputation for quality becomes even more valuable.

And you can potentially ride it out for a long time in an exit scam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit_scam

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by maerF0x0 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @04:39PM (#22631491)
> Fraud. Named users actually being fake people sharing a credential. In one case, a colleague in a manufacturing case discovered this when he accidentally received a link to an open video stream of a MFA token.

This is a classic bait and switch in many online work platforms. The person who interviews for your open contract/role is not the person who does the work.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by jcims on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:04PM (#22629395)
They run the gamut. Lack of a viable risk management program, lack of resiliency planning and testing, poor operational and change management controls, poor visibility and response planning for security events, poor SDLC security, etc. etc. The requirements vary based on our exposure.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by robk on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:10PM (#22629471)
What have you found? (Omitting any details that would be confidential of course)
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by malandrew on Thursday March 19, 2020 @08:31PM (#22633299)
> the scary shit that we find all the time

Curious to hear examples if you can share.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by charwalker on Thursday March 19, 2020 @07:23PM (#22632856)
My dad used to work for a big tech OEM and retired a few years back. He had years of supply chain flows, contacts, locations, and more for his old company in notes, his head, and Visio and was hired through layoffs for that knowledge. I think in like 2006 he was picked up by a manager who had heard him speak up in a meeting years before to explain a step in a chain and knew he knew what the company was able to do.

He could jump into the flow of parts and information for a specific printer model from 10 years ago. He knew the reasons for each steps like import tax avoidance, cost/benefit analysis of using one vendor/shipper/etc, or even that they used to have a specific engineer at that one factory who was amazing at QA and tolerance checking or something like that. When teams were behind due to supply chain issues, he would jump in to analyze their process. Sometimes that meant combining it with ongoing flows like "This factory here makes a part like that for product X, I'll get you a sample so you can adapt it into your product to rework."

He had immense company value and history committed to memory that he tried to pass before leaving as teams moved to India or China. But I doubt anyone at a decision making level was aware.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by eru on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:28AM (#22634886)
Thanks for the write-up!

> He knew the reasons for each steps like import tax avoidance, cost/benefit analysis of using one vendor/shipper/etc, or even that they used to have a specific engineer at that one factory who was amazing at QA and tolerance checking or something like that.

Excellent example. Some of those you wouldn't be allowed to document in writing, even if you wanted to.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by dv_dt on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:33PM (#22629093)
They have a complete idea, its just that the globalized option is cheaper, even fractions of pennies cheaper, and is directly measured in the profit margin, while the risk, if it shows up at all, is buried in the footnote of a 10-Q or annual report.

Ideas like regionalization and flexible manufacturing are great ideas, in most cases, the capital machinery of factories are relatively easy to replicate and setup (harder than software, but much easier now than any time in the past). However, the economic and accounting system needs to balance out the global employee wage differentials for it to gain any traction.

Tariffs have been hated on economically, in part because the analysis values the generic profit creation over the risk; but it seems like one way to balance wage differentials to encourage de-risking our supply chain. I'm sure there are other maybe better methods?

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by epicureanideal on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:48PM (#22629833)
They could introduce some new GAAP rules like...

Add 10% of the value of all inventory sourced outside North America as a "risk liability". Same for 10% of yearly labor that's outsourced.

Basically find ways to make short term thinking visible in their financial reports, since that's what's measured and rewarded.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by Havoc on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:31PM (#22630783)
Not really an accounting issue & messing with those numbers to highlight a risk is just asking for trouble.

Companies are required to disclose significant risks, but the quality of that disclosure...varies.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by epicureanideal on Thursday March 19, 2020 @07:54PM (#22633047)
I suppose this is a useful way to use tariffs. Make production abroad slightly more expensive, or significantly more expensive for vital goods.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by dredmorbius on Thursday March 19, 2020 @09:28PM (#22633649)
Base those premiums on verified actuarially based underwriting risk and you might be on to something.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by eru on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:38AM (#22634934)
Companies are free to add them to their accounting already.

Mostly these kinds of risk factors are mentioned verbally in their reports at the moment.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by dredmorbius on Friday March 20, 2020 @02:56AM (#22635580)
Entities tend strongly to externalise risks unless compelled to do otherwise.

Insurance obligations -- auto, health, life, C&L, bonding, mortgage and title -- are generally required by or offered via third. parties. Sometimes governments, but often creditors, counterparties, employers, or other entities.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by eru on Sunday March 22, 2020 @05:09AM (#22653691)
There are true externalities in a car accident.

If you have to shut down your business, that's mostly impacting your business in a very direct way.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by eru on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:34AM (#22634920)
> Tariffs have been hated on economically, in part because the analysis values the generic profit creation over the risk; but it seems like one way to balance wage differentials to encourage de-risking our supply chain. I'm sure there are other maybe better methods?

What do you mean by 'balancing wage differentials'?

Global trade is on of the best ways to balance wage differentials. That's how China had crazy catch-up growth in the last few decades.

(Another great way to help poor people get more productive and thus richer is open borders.)

If downstream customers want to de-risk, they should pay for it. Either by setting up their supply chains differently, or by outright purchasing insurance, etc.

If they choose not to engage in this expense, perhaps they are right, and just bearing the risk is overall a better trade-off? Who are we to tell other people what level of risk aversion they should have?

Of course, once the calamity hits everyone wishes they would have bought prepared or bought insurance. But that doesn't mean we should all go out and make our roofs asteroid impact proof, or never ever go out because we might break a leg.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by clairity on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:07PM (#22630569)
that's also where i've landed on the tariffs issue. theoretically a bad idea, but has practical uses beyond purely economic considerations.

good tariff policy is hard to achieve in divisive political environments however. for instance, in many cases, you'd want them to go away dynamically as conditions improve, but lawmakers hate giving away their levers of power.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by Retric on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:15PM (#22630648)
I am convinced a low tariff of ~3% on all goods and services to every country is a good idea. But that’s never what happens, you get a huge mix of zero to insanity based on which industries have political power. As such a blanket ban on tariffs became a rallying cry.

Food is often used as the counter example, but IMO domestic production is less valuable than a multi year stockpile.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by sigstoat on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:40PM (#22630860)
> domestic production is less valuable than a multi year stockpile

nobody is going to stockpile food or consumer goods when you're demonized for charging more for them when the demand goes up. there's no way to do anything but lose money on it.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by celticninja on Friday March 20, 2020 @11:02AM (#22638057)
that's why stockpiles should be kept by government. they don't need to make money on it. should be easy enough, have 6 months worth in a warehouse, ship the oldest out the front of the warehouse to the supply chain while topping up with new product at the back. rotating it like this acts like a buffer,rather than something that is only accessed in dire emergencies and would be out of date or less effective due to age. the relatively small costs of a warehouse would be negligible
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by Retric on Thursday March 19, 2020 @04:14PM (#22631204)
Governments used to maintain grain stockpiles in case of famine. A modern equivalent could be run for vastly less than current farm subsidies. Especially if stocks where rotated and mostly refilled in years of massive surplus.

PS: At the extreme end Honey can be stored for thousands of years at room temperature.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by dv_dt on Thursday March 19, 2020 @05:22PM (#22631888)
Such a tariff could be made more economically neutral if the tariff proceeds were distributed to citizens as a dividend too.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by eru on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:37AM (#22634932)
You'd still get deadweight losses.

Easier to image with a 1,000,000% tariff: nobody would actually pay the tariff, so there's no dividend to distribute. Yet, you get an economic impact.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by dv_dt on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @05:34PM (#22688729)
no one is suggesting that tariff level though so it's a pretty much unrealistic value to work throuh.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by eru on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @08:31AM (#22736848)
Well, that's the tariff level that corresponds to a ban on imports, basically.

You still get deadweight losses from lower tariff levels.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by clairity on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:34PM (#22630812)
why 3%? to overcome inflation? and why on everything instead of grossly disadvantaged industries? i haven't spent much time thinking about such details, so curious about the rationale.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by Retric on Thursday March 19, 2020 @04:05PM (#22631116)
It’s extremely expensive to grow bananas’s in Canada, so the correct response is to import them not add a huge subsidy. The point is to encourage domestic production, but not to the point of stupidity.

Further, unlike a direct subsidy it’s adding tax revenue.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by breischl on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:56PM (#22631007)
Not the person you're asking, but I could see doing it to "internalize" the risk of rare events like what we're seeing right now. Basically it applies an incentive towards regionalization over globalization, that can make the system more resilient to distant events.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by whatshisface on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:47PM (#22630922)
grossly disadvantaged industries = industries labeled as grossly disadvantaged = industries that managed to talk politicians in to giving them a huge advantage
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by Nasrudith on Friday March 20, 2020 @01:18PM (#22639358)
Really the risk sounds more like a job for insurance and warranties tied to product specs than tarrifs.

I don't see a connection between tarrifs and risk in a supply chain. Infamously US autos which refused to adopt Tailorism or other cousin methodologies for reliability wound up being expensive crap compared to Japanese car makers. It is a peripheral variable at best or an irrelevant one at worst.

Tarriffs as a solutio resemble opportunistic timing to not let a crisis go to waste rather than addressing a root cause.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by moufestaphio on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:22PM (#22628965)
My current position is involved in Supply Chain, and this hits the nail on the head. There are so many different departments with fragmented knowledge of the supply chain that isn't shared or sometimes even documented. One of the senior people trying to fix this specifically mentioned Walmart as an example of having their supply chain being a competitive advantage because they focused on it so much. I think Apple was also one of the ones we discussed.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by jcims on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:26PM (#22629014)
WalMart turned their supply chain into a competitive advantage 30-40 years ago. I saw it as an employee first, their inventory control in the store was ridiculous back in the 80's. Then I saw it again working with an EDI shop (Sterling Commerce) in the 90's. Everything was electronic. We'd get these little mom and pop shops calling in trying to get their bisync modems working so they could upload their ANSI X12 810's.

The only reason there's any question who's the richest person in the world is that Sam Walton is dead.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by implements on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:02PM (#22630528)
Sterling Commerce - that’s a name I haven’t heard in a •long• time. Do you by any chance remember a company called “EDES” (Electronic Data Exchange Service)?
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by jcims on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:54PM (#22630992)
There's a tickle in a neuron but it could be self-induced. What was the relationship?
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by implements on Friday March 20, 2020 @06:32AM (#22636481)
They bought EDES in 1998 - it was a company I’d done a bit of contract work for.

(Trivia) EDES was one of the few users of RPL (RapidGen Programming Language) - Decision Table based, and running on PDP11s and later MicroVaxs.

https://www.cbronline.com/news/sterling_commerce_buys_into_u...

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by jcims on Friday March 20, 2020 @09:03PM (#22643339)
Hmmm I was there in 98, probably just a hole in my memory.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by hinkley on Thursday March 19, 2020 @02:44PM (#22630375)
Before he was CEO, Tim Cook was handling logistics for Apple, wasn't he?

I haven't been at many companies where a customer paid us money specifically to build up capacity for them first. Most of the time I've had to ramp up, we had to pay for it out of investment dollars or scraped out of contracts specifically for deliverables. Even when we special-built a feature for a customer, we still had to find a way to generalize it for others to turn a profit on it, and that was out of pocket.

Apple has apparently paid a number of manufactures to get good at something in exchange for a short lockup period and a permanent discount on orders. Which I think is why when Intel tried to make their first direct Macbook competitor, it turned out their margins were razor thin compared to Apple's.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by bilbo0s on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:26PM (#22629015)
>but they've achieved it at great effort.

And enormous expense. You shouldn't have to have Apple money to establish visibility into, and security of, your supply chain. I mean, do you really want to be down in the weeds trying to make sure the coltan isn't essentially coming from Rwandan warlords? Apple can afford that, most people can't.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by eru on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:44AM (#22634970)
Just adopt the opposite point of view:

You could, by default, have lots of visibility in your supply chain. Or you could get a substantial discount in return for giving up on that visibility.

You are arguing that the discount should be smaller?

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by spiderjerusalem on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:50PM (#22629851)
> based around the idea of understanding supply chains end-to-end

if you know more companies / projects in this area, I would love to know. It's of course wiser and easier to do b2b in this space, but there's also the dual problem from the consumer side of getting to know the supply chain.

It would be so great to have a portal where I can scan a barcode and get to know the whole chain of production.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by r00fus on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:44PM (#22629199)
Is it possible some legislation requiring resilience and local-sourcing could be possible in this climate? - esp. given the political antipathy to China these days.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by mistermann on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:15PM (#22629528)
I sure get the feel that it would be, but I hope we get moving on that ASAP before this is over, because I suspect minds have only been temporarily opened on this matter. Before too long I suspect our old heuristics will reassert their dominance over logic on topics that are in any way associated with the identity of the person.

I am going to bookmark this thread in anticipation of this phenomenon.

"Nobody could have foreseen what would happen when the world’s second-largest economy went offline and completely shut down external logistics connections."

Exactly what they said about the housing bubble. Honestly, how many people on HN and elsewhere couldn't anticipate this? I think the main thing that has caught everyone by surprise is just how comically unprepared we are for this. And the overwhelming sentiment I've been getting from the memeplex is that this situation is entirely the fault of Trump, when he fired Obama's pandemic team. Not only is this not actually technically true, the idea or insinuation (dog-whistling) that the extension of that team would have mitigated this whole thing seems to be quite unlikely, to put it mildly. Oh yes, of course having this team in place would have improved things - but by how much, and under what counter-factual scenarios?

These are the discussions we need to have, but I don't think Western culture as it is is capable of having them. We need to wake up and realize the human ego is the root of all of these problems.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by lifeisstillgood on Thursday March 19, 2020 @07:11PM (#22632753)
This is arguing over whether the iceberg sank the Titanic or the decision to remove bulkheads to make room for the grand ballroom.

It is of course both. Global supply chains and JIT delivery have made us more fragile. But China reacted well - locked down a region of 60 M people - then sent in the resources we of 1.5 BN to stop the spread to the rest of the country. Now they are basically hanging on till a vacccine.

USA pandemic teams probably had similar plans - shutdown California for example - in other words steering away from the worst of the icebergs.

Is China's strategy "best"? Hard call to make - especially now. But it beats many many alternatives.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by mistermann on Thursday March 19, 2020 @09:02PM (#22633500)
There is a much larger more fundamental problem I'm referring to. It's right in front of us, and yet invisible, for lack of a better term. Kind of like this virus ironically.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by FooHentai on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:43AM (#22634962)
>the overwhelming sentiment I've been getting from the memeplex is that this situation is entirely the fault of Trump, when he fired Obama's pandemic team.

Also Trump 'dependence on China is a huge problem'.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by mistermann on Friday March 20, 2020 @11:42AM (#22638470)
Of course, but if we're seeking the truth, Donald Trump isn't a good place to start.

Dependence on <x> (where <x> could be China or many other things) has been an obvious risk across numerous dimensions for a very long time now. Many of these ideas have been discussed here, although not in a manner befitting for the gravity of the matter.

That even on HN we are often unable to engage in unbiased, purely rational discussion has been another big systemic risk that I have been banging the drum about for months. It makes a person start to wonder: what will it take for people to wake up? Maybe it isn't even possible?

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by eru on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:43AM (#22634959)
What would that legislation accomplish?

Companies already bear the costs and benefits of their resilience. So it's already internalised.

You could, however, pass a law that specifically allowed people to charge whatever prices they can get a customer to agree to pay; and ban all laws outlawing such pricing.

That way you would give companies an incentive to be especially resilient in the face of disruptions.

Right now, you are mostly not allowed to sell hand sanitiser for thousand dollars a bottle. So the incentives to become so resilient that you are still producing when everyone else has shut down and you can charge these kinds of prices, is kind of dulled.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by j-c-hewitt on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:09PM (#22629466)
There are regulatory and IP issues to consider as well. Redundancy is not necessarily as straightforward as it seems.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by FooHentai on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:41AM (#22634954)
>Only that the widgets show up at their loading dock every week, and that the shipments have always been reliable in the past, so that there's no reason to look any further.

Just want to add that this same story is playing out at the individual level right now, as well. Milk comes from supermarket shelves, not cows.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by downerending on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:06PM (#22630566)
Arguably a benefit of substantial tariffs is that it gets that message through (i.e., your supply chain may not be nearly as reliable as you think).
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by droopyEyelids on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:57PM (#22629322)
My family is in manufacturing and everyone is acutely aware of their supply chain, and there are whole departments in the companies dedicated to sourcing and testing it all.

Supply chain management is like 50%+ of all manufacturing industry. I think you must be responding to the idea of like a hospital not knowing where their masks come from- and I don't think thats the focus of the article.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by PeterisP on Thursday March 19, 2020 @04:54PM (#22631628)
If your supplier's supplier would change their supplier of something, is that something your company would know, or are they at liberty to source their materials and parts wherever and however they want and not tell anyone?

Carefully sourcing parts is one thing, tracking the whole supply chain of where your suppliers get their materials is another.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by gowld on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:30PM (#22629673)
Does your company monitor its entire supply chain, or its supply links?
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by guerrilla on Thursday March 19, 2020 @10:39PM (#22634067)
> more that companies have no idea what their supply chain actually looks like.

Except Walmart

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by gowld on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:29PM (#22629653)
It's called the invisible hand the free market for good reason.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by wongarsu on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:08PM (#22628804)
We had the same problem back in 2011 when floods in Thailand wiped out almost all of the world's hard drive manufacturing capacity across all manufacturers. It took almost two years for prices per GB to fall back to pre-flood levels.

Relying on only one country seemed as foolish then as it seems now, but we haven't learned the lesson yet.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by stormdennis on Thursday March 19, 2020 @02:35PM (#22630280)
Plus all these once a century storm and flood events seen to be happening more regularly in recent years.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by generatorguy on Thursday March 19, 2020 @04:05PM (#22631113)
i work on hydro electric power stations and often see drawings showing the 50, 100, 500, 1000 year flood water levels at some structure such as the powerhouse or intake. The civil engineers design the plant to withstand the 500 year flood. I've personally seen the 100 year flood level occur at about 7 different projects, and I only work on site at 1 project per year generally.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by asdfman123 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:40PM (#22629768)
How do you build in redundancy, though? If China makes widgets for $0.13 a unit and the US makes widgets for $0.15 a unit, how do you incentivize people to buy some of them from China, and some of them from the US? It seems like the logic of free trade and specialization dictates it's mostly all-or-nothing.

That's a genuine question, by the way. I'm curious.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by RandallBrown on Thursday March 19, 2020 @02:21PM (#22630152)
Maybe tariffs?

I'm not sure if this is practical to actually implement, but if you increase tariffs based on how many of each item you're shipping, it would eventually be cheaper to manufacture some of them in the United States.

Example, first million widgets have no tariff. Next 500,000 are $0.02 per widget. Next 500,000 are $0.03 per widget and now it's cheaper to make those last 500,000 in the US.

And for companies with smaller runs, like 50,000 widgets, the volume savings might not make up the extra cost of dealing with Chinese manufacturing (shipping, time zones, language barriers, etc.)

The biggest trouble would be setting those values at reasonable levels based on different industries. Not sure if you could actually do that in a way that scaled to EVERYTHING manufactured in China.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by seph-reed on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @03:49PM (#22678253)
This is really clever! It's like increasing taxes as a company gets bigger, or making people pay exponentially more for the second/third bottle of hand sanitizer.

Reminds me of the concept of "protecting players from themselves" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L8vAGGitr8)

Good idea.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by shas3 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:52PM (#22629871)
The incentive has already been created by Covid-19 exposing the vulnerabilities and need for decentralization. Diversification will emerge such that the next time there is a shock companies that diversified will survive, while others fail. Some industries will not learn because they will be bailed out, others like consumer electronics have probably already learned their lessons.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by quanticle on Thursday March 19, 2020 @02:02PM (#22629975)
The incentive has already been created by Covid-19 exposing the vulnerabilities and need for decentralization. Diversification will emerge such that the next time there is a shock companies that diversified will survive, while others fail.

There is an incentive for now. When the current supply shock goes away, the old market pressures will reassert themselves, and those companies whose supply chains are narrowly focused on the lowest-cost/highest-quality producers at the expense of diversification will outcompete those whose supply chains are diversified.

The parent questioner is asking, in essence, how can we turn this incentive from a one-time shock into a continued incentive to maintain diversification? As it currently stands shocks are far too unpredictable and episodic to serve as a market incentive. In practice, people don't diversify unless there's a constant and ongoing pressure for them to do so. It's much easier and cheaper to find a good supplier and rely on them as much as possible.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by enitihas on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:58PM (#22629926)
How will diversified companies survive till before the shock, given consumer preference for lower prices.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by notyourday on Thursday March 19, 2020 @06:31PM (#22632446)
Less competition. Twenty years even if a company manufactured something in China the sales channel for a product was dependent on the company giving the company ability to control/level the price.

Today the supplier can not only sell to the company but to the consumers directly significantly cutting company's ability to level the price so the company is forced to drop the more expensive suppliers

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by asdfman123 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @04:21PM (#22631296)
What I mean by incentive is the concrete, day-to-day purchasing decision incentives. I know why it might be a good idea, I just don't know how people could accomplish it.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by eru on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:49AM (#22634994)
Perhaps it is _not_ a good idea?

We don't generally make our roofs asteroid impact proof, either.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by Nasrudith on Friday March 20, 2020 @02:15PM (#22639909)
What is needed is for there to be multiple competitive and diverse fungible product sources to get redundancy. It is sort of an extension of a competitive market. Production insufficient for complete demand to be supplies by one softens the blow as it becomes half needed capacity. So if say China produces half of our screws then cut off results in a shortfall by half instead of a complete cut off.

The thing is that these dependencies are a feature and not a bug on several levels, both in terms of trade promoting peace and the efficency involved. Put the should we philosophical questions aside and there are a few precedents to look at and hypothetical solutions.

One way is through subsidies for deliberate overproduction are the way done for food - but that is also a market where the fungibility and nutrition encourages varierty to some degree. Again it is inefficiency by definition - generally done for things where it is believed/claimed to be better to have the waste than running out.

Another is in "national security" pork where it is often more an accident of the pretext than neccessity. Needing American screws for DoD gear.

Some sort of international robustness treaty/trade deal could be devised per sector that say any country may subsidize or tarriff industries up to say N% of their basic demand but once it gets beyond that they need to stop or start tapering off, perhaps with varied threshholds. That would no doubt be a bed of weeds as everyone tries to privledge their own interests and plays games with classifications.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by abathur on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:30PM (#22630769)
Like Chaos Monkey, but with import/export bans and/or tariffs?
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by chillacy on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:59PM (#22631057)
Yea I was thinking that there is some sort of parallel to datacenters, where it's lowest latency to route everyone to their closest DC but in practice people usually route a certain percentage of traffic to standby datacenters which are farther away to make sure they're still working.

You lose some efficiency but gain in resilience. Nowadays big internet companies have all sorts of Disaster Recovery plans.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by DEADBEEFC0FFEE on Thursday March 19, 2020 @04:48PM (#22631572)
BCP is the way, this is all risk management. Get financial lenders to insist on insurance, the insurance companies will figure out how to measure supply chain risk.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by notyourday on Thursday March 19, 2020 @06:33PM (#22632463)
> where it's lowest latency to route everyone to their closest DC but in practice people usually route a certain percentage of traffic to standby datacenters which are farther away to make sure they're still working.

Are you keeping your own data center in addition to the AWS/GCP/Azure? Because that's the exact same premise.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by eeZah7Ux on Thursday March 19, 2020 @08:10PM (#22633159)
Are you hinting at some politician?
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by abathur on Friday March 20, 2020 @04:01PM (#22641059)
No--just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_engineering#Chaos_Monkey

But I can see how you came to that reading, and it did give me a chuckle.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by BaronSamedi on Thursday March 19, 2020 @10:48PM (#22634130)
I'm sure people have many good ideas. Two things that come to mind are: extend the Berry Amendment to the entire US Federal Government and designate certain products such as medicine as critical and require that they be manufactured in the US in order to be sold here.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by cgearhart on Thursday March 19, 2020 @02:42PM (#22630361)
Tariffs, subsidies, legal mandates, direct government spending (the US military frets about the industrial base and does a lot of this). Take your pick. Plenty of other solutions as well. They all have different costs and benefits, but it’s at least possible theoretically.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by wangii on Thursday March 19, 2020 @09:00PM (#22633485)
Help the poor. Really. When each penny counts, the incentive can only go that far. It's not exactly what capitalism good at.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by toss1 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @11:46AM (#22628552)
Exactly! I have always thought it was insane from a national security perspective to allow functionally all of key manufacturing capabilities (e.g., microprocessors) to go offshore. Nevermind the risks of inserted backdoors, etc, just the external sources of failure rapidly become too great.

Yes, this would require subsidies & regulations, and be on a quarter-to-quarter and in most fiscal years "inefficient" use of capital, open to accusations of "waste", "boondoggle", "featherbedding", etc.. Yet, we're happy to pay firemen to polish their trucks while they wait for a fire to happen, or soldiers to 'squander' ammunition shooting at paper targets when there is no war.

Somebody needs to be thinking and acting on more than just shareholder value for the current quarter if we are to remain a nation.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by nxc18 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:01PM (#22628717)
Its pretty clear at this point that the shareholder value revolution has been a disaster for many people and the planet.

Today, a few generations of people are unfamiliar with the idea that a corporation could act in ways that are consistent with the good of the community, or optimize for long-term growth, value & sustainability.

https://review.chicagobooth.edu/economics/2017/article/it-s-...

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by rileymat2 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @11:54AM (#22628632)
> I have always thought it was insane from a national security perspective to allow functionally all of key manufacturing capabilities (e.g., microprocessors) to go offshore.

I am not sure, a completely dependent world may make us safer as wars will very hard to execute.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by wtdo on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:05PM (#22628765)
That's true so long as everyone is dependent on each other. If, everyone is dependent on one country, that doesn't hold

China has a near monopoly on a lot of production. Countries that depend on them certainly won't go to war with them, but that doesn't hinder China from starting a war with those countries, and even gives them an advantage. And it doesn't stop dependent countries from warring with each other and that could even be beneficial to China.

N.B. I use China as an example only. Replace China with any country that might have a near monopoly on production of some kind. The point I'm trying to make isn't "ahhh China scary", it's that interconnectedness may only prevent war if it's actually interconnected, and not a monopoly.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by stickfigure on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:49PM (#22629249)
Trade goes both ways. The seller of goods is just as dependent on the exchange as the buyer. Nobody stays in business going to war with their customers. And there are truly very few products that cannot be sourced from alternates given a little time and money.

I think the "global interdependence reduces war" hypothesis is pretty strong.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by tomp on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:31PM (#22629682)
Money is fake in a way that physical products aren't. So the parties have very unequal bargaining positions, the one with the "real" stuff (products) can walk away much more easily than the one with the "fake" stuff (money).
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by SAI_Peregrinus on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:28PM (#22629646)
Oracle certainly seems to disagree here.

And if the seller is a monopoly on a critical good while the buyer is a tiny fraction of their business, the relationship is asymmetrical and the seller won't suffer nearly as much from a war.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by _jal on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:12PM (#22628863)
You might be right over the long term, we don't know yet. Related observations have been made - people used to talk about how countries with MacDonald's franchises never went to war.

But it does open up avenues for conflict less intense than invasion. The term 'weaponized interdependence' has recently been coined for this. An exploration:

http://henryfarrell.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Weapon...

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by bronipstid on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:06PM (#22629428)
Interesting. The McDonald's thing is sort of like saying that no two Soviet Socialist Republics have ever gone to war. It just means they aren't really sovereign independent countries acting on their own behalf.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by stormdennis on Thursday March 19, 2020 @02:30PM (#22630242)
Armenia and Azerbaijan had a war. Probably since the end of the USSR though.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by bronipstid on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:35PM (#22630817)
Exactly. Once the occupying force was removed from those countries the underlying ethnic conflict resumed openly. Similar things will happen elsewhere as US military power wanes.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by _jal on Thursday March 19, 2020 @02:41PM (#22630351)
The saying was at least trying to claim something different. The claim was, more or less, that democracy/capitalism (people making this claim didn't distinguish them, mostly) brings peace through freedom and prosperity.

It was more a claim about Western European countries, which, propaganda aside, were not puppet-states of the US.

Cold-war era US puppet-states were different, and at the time mostly didn't tend to have Macdonald's, at least outside of a capitol. We were busy subverting their democracies, and civil unrest doesn't go well with Big Macs.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by bronipstid on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:33PM (#22630801)
Yes, and that claim is wrong. Germany has had 50,000 US troops stationed in it for 75 years and the most rebellious thing they've done is politely ask for their gold back (US said no). No need to subvert a country you already have firm control over.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by throwaway2048 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:01PM (#22628712)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Illusion

Interdependence, even to the point that war is utterly ruinous with no upside, is no guarantee war wont happen, don't make the mistake most people in Europe did before WWI

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by bronipstid on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:12PM (#22629494)
Wow, published in 1909. Amazing how old (and wrong) this "economic mutually assured destruction" argument is.

I think it's popular today as a distraction from the fact that the American Empire is really held together by military occupations in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, Latin America etc. and not economic ties. Obviously "we just want to make you rich" is much nicer sounding than "we will bomb you if you resist US hegemony".

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by throwaway2048 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @02:00PM (#22629951)
There are a lot of unsettling parallels between the era before WW I and today:

A major rising power that feels it is being denied its "rightful place" in the world order by the existing power brokers (Germany vs the UK/ China vs the USA) lead by a hardline leader that isn't interested in compromise (Kaiser Wilhelm II/Xi Jinping)

A series of interlocking mutual defensive pacts that will automatically draw nations into war (The alliance of the UK, France and Russia vs Germany and the Austria-Hungary Empire/NATO vs China and Russia)

Regional fighting that is close to leading to direct confrontation between said power blocks (The Balkans/Turkey and Syria)

Rising Globalism and trade interdependance, along with rising nationalistic rhetoric and jingoism, and intense competition for influence in 3rd party states (The scramble for africa/Africa and south east asia and former CIS states).

The major powers slept walked into a horrible war because the rising tensions made it inevitable, and nobody took heroic steps to stop it, sadly it looks like it might be happening again.

Nobody wanted a ruinous war, and most people thought that there was no way a war could really occur or at the very least be sustained due to the need for trade. (Germany at the start of WWI was critically short on stuff like gasoline, fertilizer and the raw materials for gunpowder)

It Happened anyways.

Don't think for a second it can't happen again.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by PeterisP on Thursday March 19, 2020 @05:20PM (#22631855)
Many interesting points, but the "mutual defensive pacts that will automatically draw nations into war" part seems to not apply today.

For NATO, the key part is Article 5 that specifies "armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all", and is intentionally drafted so as to not apply to "Cold war turning hot" in Asia (e.g. the Korean war or Vietnam war or Afghanistan or Iraq) and to any "non-core territories" e.g. French or British overseas territories or pacific islands like Guam. Heck, a literal repeat of Pearl Harbor and invasion of Hawaii would not trigger Article 5 (though NATO could and would likely take action despite not being required to do so) - the NATO treaty is explicitly designed to not draw nations automatically into war unless USSR or someone else starts WW3 in Europe or attacks mainland USA. It's hard to imagine any Chinese actions regarding their ambitions (e.g. South China Sea, Taiwan, Hong Kong) that could trigger the NATO Article 5 which would automatically draw nations into war, anything in Asia would give each nation a choice whether to get involved and if so, how much.

I'm not informed about the Russia-China treaties much, but IMHO they also don't have any strong mutual defence pacts, they have some limited military cooperation and sharing but that's it; they had a mutual defence pact in 1950s but that's long gone now. For example, there's the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Sino-Russian_Treaty_of_Fr... where the strongest relevant obligation in Article 9 would require each party, if it's attacked, to.... immediately contact the other and consult about the situation; it does not include any agreement or obligation to actually do anything about it.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by ardy42 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:19PM (#22628931)
> I am not sure, a completely dependent world may make us safer as wars will very hard to execute.

But "safer" doesn't necessarily mean "no wars." It's rare, but sometimes wars are just (e.g. ones against those who commit crimes against humanity). A world so economically interdependent that war is truly unthinkable is one where even peaceful coercion like sanctions are too costly to pursue. I don't want economics to enslave morality.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by fnord123 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:03PM (#22628731)
It is insane to think that every country must have their fully end to end supply chains. Italy doesn't need to manufacture microprocessors despite the backdoors that Intel tries to introduce.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by jaywalk on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:15PM (#22628893)
No, Italy doesn't need to manufacture microprocessors. But Italy should be able to source microprocessors from more than one country.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by fnord123 on Friday March 20, 2020 @04:06AM (#22635894)
Absolutely. But toss1 was saying something else. Likely from an Imperial US perspective.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by toss1 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:42PM (#22629179)
I didn't say fully end-to-end supply chains, and certainly not for every country, but major powers should at least maintain sources for critical components/elements within their own borders or those of close longstanding allies.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by unethical_ban on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:00PM (#22629360)
I said this last night to a friend: The United States (and all nations really) need to look at supply chains the way we look at AWS regions. You don't build anything in just one region when it's in production - you always have redundancy, in this case, geographical and political redundancy if possible.

We have strategic reserves of petroleum, foodstocks, and other necessities. It is time to think about the same with medicines, medical supplies, and common household goods.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by TeMPOraL on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:04PM (#22629398)
It's not stupidity that caused supply chain fragility. People involved understand the benefits of redundancy. It's the market that doesn't. It's fundamentally unable to protect itself against black swan events, because they're (by definition) outside of its optimization horizon. Redundancies and buffers that could protect us from once-in-couple-decades events are considered as "fat", and are cut off by competitive pressure.

The conclusion from this is that, unless there is regulation directly addressing this, nothing will change, because the market forces are what they are.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by at-fates-hands on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:37PM (#22629736)
>> Redundancies and buffers that could protect us from once-in-couple-decades events are considered as "fat", and are cut off by competitive pressure.

THIS.

My brother-in-law owns a company and they put in place a ton of redundancies after the 08' crash. They're in a specialized manufacturing. After 6-7 years of stability and some of their markets recovering and stabilizing, he started getting pressure from his two partners to cut the safety nets and re-invest it in supply chain improvements. He was against it saying the same thing, "This isn't a five or six year plan, it's a permanent plan to protect the company." In short, he was outvoted. The redundancies were removed and the money was re-invested in other areas. .

The last week basically saw their entire supply chain shut down, almost all of their customers shut down and yesterday they had to send everybody home and shut down themselves for the time being.

My brother in law texted me saying, "This is the worst fucking "I told you so" in my life, I'm not sure we can survive this." He's meeting with his partners this week to assess the damage and how long they can survive before they'll need an influx of capital to keep the lights on.

Had they kept all of their money tied up in their emergency plan, they would've been able to pivot to other suppliers and continue to serve their clients. Right now? They put all their eggs into one basket and it could very well kill the company.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by stormdennis on Thursday March 19, 2020 @02:28PM (#22630211)
This is good then. The company with the cheaper but vulnerable supply chain suffers and the companies who paid a premium for robustness in their chain benefit. That's how capitalism is supposed to work I think.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by robocat on Thursday March 19, 2020 @04:43PM (#22631528)
I suspect robustness simply doesn’t work over periods of greater than a few years of competition by a vulnerable supplier.

A few examples:

1. the US has built up it’s oil producing capability. If the Saudi’s keep prices low, then everything will be mothballed. So the ecosystem of businesses and skilled staff supporting the US oil industry will massively degrade quite quickly. It can’t be ramped up quickly later.

2. Huawei. Massive shock of US sanctions. Can only be saved by amazing levels of support by Chinese govt.

3. Rare earth production. China took over the market, then shut down all exports. What producers were left and why did they still exist?

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by invalidOrTaken on Thursday March 19, 2020 @08:26PM (#22633274)
I think it can work, just not by crowd-sourced, incentive-based decision-making. Steve Jobs can do what Apple shareholders cannot, etc.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by quanticle on Friday March 20, 2020 @06:09AM (#22636390)
The problem is that if Steve Jobs fails to demonstrate returns commensurate with his peers, Apple shareholders can and will oust him and replace him with another CEO who will "cut the fat" in order to boost Apple's profitability.

It's easy to look at Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos and think that a sufficiently charismatic CEO can use his or her "reality distortion field" to hypnotize investors, but it doesn't work like that over the long run. The reason investors had such patience with Jobs and Bezos is because they were demonstrably increasing their companies' market share and profitability, respectively. Under Bezos, Amazon went from a niche seller of books to the largest e-commerce site and one of the largest retailers, online or off. Under Jobs, Apple went from a has-been computer company kept alive as a prop for Microsoft to wave at the DoJ to a leader in personal computing, consumer electronics and the most profitable corporation in history.

Do you think that shareholders would have kept Bezos and Jobs around if their strategies had not been delivering the tangible results, quarter after quarter, year after year? I think not. For proof, we can only look to Yahoo, which spent an enormous amount of time and money wooing Marissa Meyer from Google, only to ignominiously fire her 5 years later after she was unable to arrest Yahoo's declining profitability and relevance.

A CEO of a publicly traded corporation, especially a publicly traded corporation that is financial trouble, only has so long to demonstrate success, where "so long" is measured in months or, at most years, not decades. If the CEO cannot demonstrate tangible results within that time frame, he or she will be fired, no matter how powerful their "reality distortion field". CEOs cannot transcend the crowd-sourced incentive-based decision making of the market over the long term. What the can do is spin a good story that persuades the shareholders to leave them alone for a brief period of time as they attempt to make the necessary changes in order to improve or restore profitability. If they are unable to do so, they are summarily dismissed, and replaced with someone else who can tell a better story about how they're going to improve the profitability and efficiency of the firm.

No amount of Jeff Bezos or Steve Jobs charisma is going to be sufficient to persuade shareholders to accept a 10% penalty year after year in order to safeguard a little known, little understood part of the supply chain against an event that may or may not happen decades from now.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by invalidOrTaken on Sunday March 22, 2020 @02:47AM (#22653222)
Good thoughts, well-articulated.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by lutorm on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:16PM (#22630660)
Except those companies have already folded because they couldn't compete during "normal" times.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by TeMPOraL on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:13PM (#22630635)
Except the market has very short memory. In the next couple of years, the more robust companies that survive this pandemic will get outcompeted by less robust companies, or forced to become less robust themselves.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by quanticle on Thursday March 19, 2020 @02:17PM (#22630112)
It's fundamentally unable to protect itself against black swan events, because they're (by definition) outside of its optimization horizon.

I agree with your conclusion, but I want to push back on the assertion that COVID19 was a "black swan". Pandemics (especially pandemics such as this one) are not black swans. Numerous experts saw predicted them. There were examples of similar events in the recent past (for example, SARS, MERS, H5N1 influenza, etc).

The reason markets are bad at dealing with pandemic preparation is the same reason that markets are bad at dealing with pollution. It's a collective action problem. The benefit of pandemic preparation is spread across society in a diffuse manner, whereas the costs are borne by the individual manufacturers and distributors who take on the increased transaction costs of dealing with three or four suppliers, when their competitors get away with only having one or two.

It's analogous to dumping untreated sewage in a river. Even if the executives at a want to install scrubbers, as long as it has a competitor who can manufacture goods or provide services more cheaply by dumping untreated sewage, the company cannot do so, because the costs incurred will put it at a competitive disadvantage, and it will lose business to its competitor. In the same way, even if executives understand that having a supply chain dependent on a few key suppliers is a potential liability, they can't diversify as long as those suppliers are the lowest cost option, and moving away would result in them providing the same goods and services at a higher cost than their competition.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by danans on Thursday March 19, 2020 @10:02PM (#22633836)
> Pandemics (especially pandemics such as this one) are not black swans. Numerous experts saw predicted them.

Black swans aren't necessarily unpredicted. In fact they are usually predicted by a few people, but the predictions run so counter to the interests of established set of systems and models, that they are ignored.

In the book, Taleb actually spins a story about an individual who spends his entire life predicting and preparing for an invasion by barbarians, but is ignored, and upon his deathbed, the invasion happens.

People are constantly making predictions, many of which are very implausible, but it's never clear when one of those will turn into a black swan.

The pandemics you listed were different from this one in that they were not nearly as transmissible, even though some were deadlier on an individual level. A lot of people got used to thinking: "that kind of stuff only happens in those kind of countries, not here".

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by quanticle on Friday March 20, 2020 @05:49AM (#22636313)
I guess we have different standards as to what counts as a "black swan". To me, a black swan is an event that is genuinely unpredictable, and which has catastrophic consequences. A large earthquake in California, for example, is not a black swan. Even though we may not know exactly when the earthquake will hit, we know that one is coming eventually, and therefore reasonable preparations should be taken in order to mitigate the damage.

An earthquake in Kansas, on the other hand, would be a black swan. Kansas is not in what we currently understand to be a seismically active region, and thus I don't think it's reasonable to expect Kansas to have the same level of earthquake preparation as California (and vice versa for tornadoes).

In this instance, I think the pandemic was a reasonable thing to anticipate (even if no one could have predicted the actual timing or cause). There were airborne viruses which had made the jump to humans from a wild reservoir in the past. While previous examples were more deadly and less transmissible, the current outbreak was not, as I understand it, far outside the confidence intervals that epidemiologists predicted.

An example of a black swan in this instance would have been an organism that was as contagious as SARS-NCOV-2, but as deadly as Ebola. That would have broken many of our models (which hold that transmissibility is inversely correlated with deadliness). It would have caused us to significantly reconsider our models of viral evolution and disease mechanisms. In contrast, the current outbreak hasn't really caused anyone to reconsider their models of epidemiology. It's played out largely as many epidemiologists warned.

For that reason, I don't think the current outbreak is a black swan, and I think that many of the people calling it a black swan are doing so as an excuse to dodge responsibility for failing to prepare. It's as if I failed to secure my shelves in California, and then when an earthquake hit, and all my crockery spilled to the floor, I claimed that it was a "black swan", because no one could have predicted the specific timing of this earthquake.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by danans on Friday March 20, 2020 @09:52PM (#22643563)
It's a fuzzy line as to what is predicted or not.

One of most catastrophic earthquakes in recorded American history took place in 1811 in a place called New Madrid, Missouri, not far from Kansas. I'd predict that it's going to happen there again.

If it does, I'd still call it a black swan, since the systemic incentives to not prepare for such an earthquake in that area are probably optimized for the short-term.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by vibrolax on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:33PM (#22629696)
The value of robust and redundant supply chains only becomes manifest when serious disruption actually occurs.

In vast swaths of both the consumer and industrial economy, the supply chain bean counters have tolerated no argument for choosing anyone besides the low cost supplier.

Cost optimizations were the only rewarded metrics.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by wolco on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:35PM (#22630828)
Sure they can. If every 10/20 years we have an event like this source prices could be 5% higher.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by TeMPOraL on Friday March 20, 2020 @04:22AM (#22635956)
Except they won't, because 10-20 years is way beyond the horizon for most companies and most investors.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by belorn on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:35PM (#22629710)
From what I have heard and seen, the reason is that there isn't any other place where labour is that cheap. In combination with very cheap transport costs (which may be quite subsidized in order to encourage trade), what you get is a single location where almost all production occur.

A extreme example I have heard of (could of course be false) is that some fish from the north parts of Norway get sent to be processed and packaged in china in order to be imported back at the same place where it was once fished.

If we want more redundancy by encouraging more spread out production there would need to be something to balance the desire to just move production where labour is cheapest.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by quanticle on Thursday March 19, 2020 @02:09PM (#22630038)
The cheap labor argument is one that was valid in the '90s and 2000s, but hasn't been valid for quite some time. At this point, especially with regards to electronics, it's just not possible to assemble some goods outside of China. The supply chain expertise is there. The skilled workers are there. All the tacit knowledge about the issues one encounters with mass production is there. To bring all that knowledge back would take decades, and is beyond the ability of any single firm acting alone.

It's a classic collective action problem. Diversification offers a diffuse benefit to everyone, but the costs are borne by the individual firms that put in the effort to train workers, document tacit knowledge, refactor supply chains, etc. As a result, without a central coordinating authority, firms will not diversify, because to do so would be to move away from the Nash equilibrium that incentivizes them to use the cheapest/fastest/most specialized supplier at the cost of diversification.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by polskibus on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:41PM (#22629166)
Small buffers, as little "waste" as possible - dark side of driving costs as low as possible when having reserves is not mandated by law (like in banking).Just In Time production system, Lean etc have all this minimization built in and elevated to a core values. Time to embrace some kinds of process "waste"?
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by kls on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:06PM (#22629423)
I tend to see it in the same light. I think just in time and inventory not sitting on shelves has a lot to do with it. There is no buffer to soften the shock anymore. Things are made, and shipped as the demand is happening or as close to that point as possible. This happens all the way down the chain. Critical goods should have a mandatory back-supply.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by twblalock on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:13PM (#22629506)
Spreading supply chains across multiple countries to achieve redundancy and avoid single points of failure would make them more global, not less.

I agree it's a good idea but we should be clear that we are talking about making things more global and more interdependent.

We should also avoid the impression that everyone depends entirely on China -- a lot of big companies already have global supply chains with some redundancy.

In any case, global supply chains can't withstand a global pandemic that is causing business to slow down in every major country in the world.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by mc32 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:06PM (#22629429)
Tim Cook is was hailed as a supply chain guru. But even he likely didn’t weigh pandemics high up on the concern list enough to have supply chain redundancy. For what appears to be a 1/100 year event I’m not sure it would make sense for most companies anyway.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by jameslevy on Thursday March 19, 2020 @04:18PM (#22631259)
It may be best to no longer think about pandemics as a 1/100 year event.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by perl4ever on Thursday March 19, 2020 @07:02PM (#22632697)
Well, that's the sort of mindset people had after 9/11 or the financial crisis. Pretty much a decade (at least) of anticipating the next similar thing to happen. Did you think after Chelyabinsk that we should concentrate everything on meteor prevention? What about the rise of white supremacy in the US after the 2016 election? Hindsight tends to be myopic, kind of the opposite of 20/20. But then again, it is 2020, isn't it?
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by cryptonector on Thursday March 19, 2020 @06:17PM (#22632339)
Redundancy requires spare capacity. Economic efficiency requires running at close to full capacity.

What we're seeing is conflicting priorities.

After things normalize, we'll probably go back to just-in-time, full capacity production.

But there is a real and separate issue to debate w.r.t. globalization, and it has to do with international politics, and how safe it is to put one's well-being in the hands of a rival. Redundancy and efficiency have nothing to do with this argument.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by rmrfstar on Friday March 20, 2020 @11:31AM (#22638366)
Professor Shih has been sounding the alarm for at least a decade [1],[2].

His has not been a popular narrative among the Cambridge intelligentsia, who skew pro-corporate and anti-producer.

[1] (2010) "Innovation Killers: How Financial Tools Destroy Your Capacity to do New Things"

[2] (2012) "Producing Prosperity: Why America Needs a Manufacturing Renaissance"

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by DEADBEEFC0FFEE on Thursday March 19, 2020 @04:42PM (#22631503)
Surely the problem is that there are always going to be companies willing to accept the risk of disruption. Those that can't accept that risk will have to pay more to mitigate and there costs will be higher. So it's a race to the bottom.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by vicpara on Thursday March 19, 2020 @05:07PM (#22631755)
Your supplier's supplier is most of the time confidential information and part of your secret sauce. When one manages to take an omniscient seat, it's easy to see the flaws in the system. In practice this rarely is true.

Unless you have vast amount of clients and money there are almost no incentives for you to build from ground up your own supply chain. Mid size businesses, when very successful, manage to break away from a 3rd party factory and build their own. That's a massive win. Most of the raw materials will come from downstream providers and the task to get either redundancy or break away from them is going to cost you a lot of money and business margins.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by FooHentai on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:39AM (#22634941)
>It would be wise to have multiple sources for any given good, especially if it's essential.

Redundancy is in direct opposition to efficiency. You're always going to move faster and do it cheaper building a singleton, in the non-digital world where there are real costs to duplication.

In driving towards efficiency, redundancy presents no immediate benefit, introduces measurable costs, and so is actively selected against at every stage.

I'm not saying this should be the case. The drawbacks on long time scales are... well, exactly what we're seeing right now. But it does explain the current situation.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by eru on Friday March 20, 2020 @12:47AM (#22634989)
Minor disruptions are common, and so are minor redundancies to deal with them.

It's not a binary 'either redundancy or efficiency'.

Also, brands with a reputation for reliability can and do charge more.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by kepano on Thursday March 19, 2020 @12:14PM (#22628877)
It depends on the type of product you're sourcing. I run Lumi.com which offers high redundancy to our customers, but we are a marketplace for packaging/collateral which are highly commoditized products. For manufacturing techniques that are more specialized doing this at scale can be much more challenging, because vetting, implementing training, QC, etc, has a high upfront cost.

https://www.lumi.com/features/source

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by celticninja on Friday March 20, 2020 @10:37AM (#22637830)
I think this will be a driver to reduce this sort of dependence on one country. Given that SARS, H1N1 and Covid19 have all originated in this one geographic area iexpect a lot of supply chains will be changing, especially those related to medicine and healthcare. it doesn't mean abandon China, bit it means you probably only want 1/3 of your stock from one country.
Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by Spooky23 on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:27PM (#22630745)
The problem is that we think of the internet as the visionary stuff that was in Wired magazine in the 90s... "long tail".

The reality is that you have wave after wave of consolidation. Often the savings if any are nebulous. Most of the issues with manufacturing in western countries and the US in particular are accounting and tax based.

Re:Is It Time to Rethink Globalized Supply Chains? by robofanatic on Thursday March 19, 2020 @01:06PM (#22629430)
what about demand side of things?