News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by jshevek on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:03PM (#21974502)
"...Prof. Young-Wook Lee (Yonsei Univ., Seoul), who led the project said, "Quoting Carl Sagan, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but I am not sure we have such extraordinary evidence for dark energy. Our result illustrates that dark energy from SN cosmology, which led to the 2011 Nobel Prize in Physics, might be an artifact of a fragile and false assumption.""

Is he implying that other cosmologists have proceeded as if dark energy is well evidenced?

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by K0SM0S on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:36PM (#21975823)
The question is moot: it's precisely because we have evidence of things not currently explained (observation does not fit theory) that we must postulate that our theory is wrong, or that there is more to discover, or both.

"Dark energy" is a conventional term to describe some energy of unknown source that has the effect of accelerating space expansion with time. We call "dark energy" the thing that explains this observation, whatever that thing might be (we just assume it's some form of energy since it produces motion, acceleration, in a way seemingly opposed to, and stronger than gravity, but for all we knew it could be fluffy creatures from the 7th dimension, "energy" is just an educated guess).

If you remove the observational discrepancy, then you remove the need for "dark energy" to exist in the first place.

The article precisely suggests that:

- there was no such observational discrepancy, rather errors in calculations following observation

- reality is thus shown to conform to our current equations; it's our interpretation of the pretty pictures we took that was wrong all along; this is now corrected.

If true, it's the end of dark energy as a cause because the consequence is gone.

At no point (before or after it's proven or disproven) does "dark energy" imply a postulate on "what it actually is" — and chances are, when we explain previously unknown phenomena, the finders come up with a new theory and ad hoc terminology. Rarely the word sticks when it's just too good an intuition — e.g. the "atom".

Note that "dark matter" is exactly the same, it's a conventional term to denote some matter-like unknown object that has the effect of giving galaxies their characteristic shapes and interactions forming much larger patterns (structure about as big to individual galaxies as galaxies are to individual stars).

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by AnimalMuppet on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:13PM (#21974595)
It is my impression that dark energy is generally accepted in cosmology. Whether that counts as "proceeding as if dark energy is well evidenced" is perhaps a different question. If everyone believes it's there, but nobody knows what it is, well... there was still something that convinced them that it was there. That something should be evidence. Is it enough to count as "well evidenced"? Perhaps not, especially if this new study is correct that one piece of the evidence does not actually support dark energy.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by ncmncm on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:05PM (#21975603)
I don't know of any other evidence for dark energy, other than that mathematical physicists think the equations would be prettier with some, although they sort of wish there was more. It is quite embarrassing that the value was so close to zero without being zero, so that might be one embarrassment less.

We already knew there was likely to be something fishy about the most distant supernovas, because we have two divergent values for the Hubble constant, one of them based on these same supernovas.

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by ailideex on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @02:23AM (#21977790)
> I don't know of any other evidence for dark energy, other than that mathematical physicists think the equations would be prettier with some, although they sort of wish there was more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy#Evidence_of_existe...

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by AnimalMuppet on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:15PM (#21975691)
Hmm. Is this new result in the right direction to solve the Hubble Constant problem?
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by ncmncm on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:21PM (#21975737)
Haha, it would be fun if we now have three Hubble constants.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by trhway on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @02:30AM (#21977833)
my personal favorite value for the Hubble constant is the "c" divided by the age of Universe, it results in 70.8 km/s/Mpc, right in the middle of the other 2 established Hubble constant's values, a very nice coincidence that the objects at the Universe age distance are running away exactly with "c".
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @07:19PM (#21986827)
A coincidence? I think it might be an identity.

But that would mean that disputes about the value of the Hubble Constant are also disputes about the age of the universe, and vice versa.

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by ncmncm on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @04:56PM (#21996221)
Right, and that has been revised a few times recently.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by mindcrime on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:32PM (#21975797)
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by StanislavPetrov on Monday January 06, 2020 @09:50PM (#21976315)
>If everyone believes it's there, but nobody knows what it is, well... there was still something that convinced them that it was there.

The article stipulates what convinced these people that it was there, namely that they rested their conclusions on an assumption that turned out to be wrong.

This result is based on the assumption that the corrected luminosity of SN Ia through the empirical standardization would not evolve with redshift.

Which is another good reason not to make conclusive judgements based on unproven assumptions (not that everyone that "dark energy" must exist, but many did, and some people still cling to it even if the face of this study). It is also a good example of why one should never give credence to a theory or a supposition based on how many other people give it credence - stick to what you can prove.

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by dfischer on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:40PM (#21974840)
As a frequent listener of cosmologists I'd say they regularly frame answers as dark energy were true.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by awb on Monday January 06, 2020 @07:42PM (#21975388)
> Is he implying that other cosmologists have proceeded as if dark energy is well evidenced?

I thought dark matter and dark energy are simply placeholders for a discrepancy we see between our models of the universe and our observations. No?

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by MiroF on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:39PM (#21975835)
No - this article aside, most of the evidence suggests that this is matter that is actually there, not just an error term that we have added to our models.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by njarboe on Monday January 06, 2020 @09:24PM (#21976152)
This article is about dark energy, not dark matter. IANAC, but I think the evidence for the existence of dark matter is stronger than dark energy.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by MiroF on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @12:36AM (#21977229)
Yes, but the comment I'm replying to mentions dark matter.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by unlinked_dll on Monday January 06, 2020 @07:54PM (#21975515)
it's my understanding that dark matter is another word for the indirect observation of matter that we can't otherwise detect, through gravity. I don't know if calling it a placeholder is the proper parlance.

Dark energy is something predicted by general relativity and iirc it's what is behind the expansion of space (and acceleration of expansion).

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by pdonis on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:00PM (#21975567)
> Dark energy is something predicted by general relativity

Not really. GR can accommodate it just fine, but GR did not predict it. In fact, Einstein, who originally introduced the cosmological constant (which was the term then for what we now call "dark energy") in order to allow a static solution to his equation, thereby missed the chance to predict that the universe was expanding, a decade before Hubble's observations showed that it was. Once it became clear that expanding models matched the data, and did not (then) require a cosmological constant to do so, Einstein dropped it, calling it "the biggest blunder of my life". Only in the 1990s, when evidence for accelerating expansion became available, was the cosmological constant (now called "dark energy") put back into the equations so they would match the data.

> it's what is behind the expansion of space (and acceleration of expansion)

The expansion itself, no. The acceleration, yes.

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by galangalalgol on Monday January 06, 2020 @10:22PM (#21976504)
How much would the fate of the universe page on Wikipedia change with linear expansion? Do we have a bit longer before the stretch?
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by pdonis on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @01:08AM (#21977386)
I'm not sure what you mean by "linear expansion". If you mean that the rate of change of the scale factor with respect to time never changes at all, that is not possible except in the edge case of a universe containing zero matter or energy and zero cosmological constant. (This edge case is often called the Milne universe.) Which is obviously not the universe we live in.

If you just mean "no dark energy", i.e., the model that most cosmologists used before the 1990s when accelerating expansion was discovered, it wouldn't change the universe's long term fate very much. It would still expand forever and become more and more diluted; the expansion would just slow down forever instead of accelerating forever. There would be some differences as far as our observable universe--we would not eventually become isolated from all other galaxies and unable to see them--but that's about all.

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by carbocation on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:17PM (#21974635)
This doesn't really address your point, but the 2011 physics Nobel [1] said that "What is known is that dark energy constitutes about three quarters of the Universe."

Not saying the Nobel write-ups constitute evidence, but dark energy has certainly been popular, at least.

1 = https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/2011/press-release...

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by doodliego on Monday January 06, 2020 @09:21PM (#21976134)
The Luminiferous Aether was popular too.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by phkahler on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:30PM (#21974755)
>> Is he implying that other cosmologists have proceeded as if dark energy is well evidenced?

As a non-cosmologist just reading HN I would say yes. Not quite as extensively as Dark matter though. I personally think that's a mistake too based on my limited research on the topic. If these are both overturned it will be a huge blow to "scientists" credibility in the eyes of the public. That's how invested they are.

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by coliveira on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:39PM (#21974822)
> If these are both overturned it will be a huge blow to "scientists" credibility

This is nonsense. Scientists have been wrong in several occasions, it is just part of the profession. For example, in the years leading to the discovery of relativity, many physicists believed there was something called "ether" that worked to fix the speed of light that they had evidence to be the same in all directions.

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by chrisco255 on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:08PM (#21975628)
Yeah but that was in an age before clickbait and "In this house, we believe science is real" yard signs.

People are too bought into science as a source for truth instead of being a messy, difficult method of discovery.

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by ncmncm on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:18PM (#21975713)
When chemists were asked, at the end of the 19th century, whether the the atoms in their molecular diagrams were real, they always said, "No, that's just a model we use." It wasn't until Brownian motion needed actual atoms that they began to say atoms had objective reality.

Cosmologists could learn a lot from 19th-century chemists.

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by mannykannot on Monday January 06, 2020 @10:09PM (#21976435)
I think there were a lot of chemists at that time who were confident that atoms are real, but an influential group of philosophically-minded physicists (Mach, for one) objected to the claim on the basis that the evidence was circumstantial. They gave Boltzmann a good deal of unnecessary grief over the matter (no pun intended).
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by ncmncm on Monday January 06, 2020 @10:26PM (#21976531)
Yes, all chemists suspected atoms were real, but they were mostly careful not to claim to have evidence for it that they did not, in fact, have -- yet! Nobody but nobody was surprised when we turned out to really have atoms. It was all a relief, but it didn't change much about how chemistry was conducted. It made catalysis easier to understand, and ultimately DNA as a physical basis for life that made biologists generally very uneasy. Many had thought of themselves as studying something divine, and had to get used to being chemists.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by mr_mitm on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @04:05AM (#21978270)
You know what they say. Or at least what Lev Landau supposedly said: "Cosmologists are often in error, but never in doubt."
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by wallace_f on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:36PM (#21975826)
It might be cultural. I think it is. Being unsure or humble is not valued as much as it should be.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by ncmncm on Monday January 06, 2020 @09:45PM (#21976291)
It is valued more in more consequential fields. What cosmologists believe never has any legitimate effect on public policy, except to the degree that they command budgets for telescopes, accelerators, and detector arrays.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by ShorsHammer on Monday January 06, 2020 @07:46PM (#21975426)
Generally called aether, believe that ether is a misspelling which has lingered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by ncmncm on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:57PM (#21975954)
If you care what sort of ether you're on about, you say "luminiferous ether".
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by mishac on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:47PM (#21975893)
I believe it's just a regional spelling issue (like paediatriction/pediatriction or encylopaedia/encyclopedia)
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by empath75 on Monday January 06, 2020 @07:12PM (#21975150)
Scientist have no idea what dark matter or dark energy is so it’s not like our world would be overturned. If it turns out to be wrong assumptions, that’s fine. Although it would be embarrassing.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by SubiculumCode on Monday January 06, 2020 @11:41PM (#21976910)
It would only be embarrassing if science wasn't so damn hard.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by phkahler on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:19PM (#21975719)
The problem is that these topics get enough press that the general public has heard of them. It's nice that there are no obvious consequences if dark matter or dark energy turn out to be fiction. But the public will hear that "scientists" were wrong about these things they've been talking about for 50 years. Then the public will get another report on a topic like climate change which is also proven by "scientists" albeit different ones. That's an area where the truth of if has real consequences. What are people supposed to think then?
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by beowulfey on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @07:57AM (#21979474)
The answer is to properly educate the public on how science works. Science is a series of hypotheses, tested extensively and built upon given the evidence.

It is the fault of our education system and pop culture that people are so terrified of scientists being wrong. People should be thrilled when scientists are shown to be wrong, as it means they are one step closer to understanding what is right.

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by ncmncm on Monday January 06, 2020 @09:10PM (#21976056)
Our only recourse will be, "Well, you know, cosmologists. They don't behave like real scientists." That will sound suspiciously like "no true Scotsman", but there really is a difference between science with and without consequences.

People were forced to take particle physics seriously, and cosmology slipped in on its coattails.

Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by empath75 on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @10:43AM (#21980991)
Cosmologists are behaving like real scientists. There is a gap in our knowledge of physics which appears to be dark matter and dark energy. That's something that needs to be resolved, one way or the other. Currently they are expending a lot of effort looking for dark matter and energy. If it ends up being wasted effort, that would be embarrassing, but it wouldn't have been wrong to look.
Re:Evidence that the key assumption made in discovery of dar... by ncmncm on Wednesday January 08, 2020 @02:21PM (#21994774)
Announcing far and wide that the Universe is certainly 96 percent invisible stuff that has never been identified in any way is not what a real scientist would do, if it mattered in any way.

All we really know is that the equations we have don't match the universe we see. Dark-this and dark-that are no better than guesses that seem to bring things back in line with our favored theories, until some actual mechanism is identified.