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Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by josephjrobison on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @05:57PM (#21468505)
A very easy way to break this argument is to not look at huge known companies like eBay and Amazon, but brand new companies 1-2 years old that have grown almost entirely by online ads. Eventually word of mouth kicks in, but there are plenty of smart operators that built their entire brand and revenue off of ads.

Works best in online direct to consumer brands.

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by kposehn on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:05PM (#21468565)
Reliably someone comes along every few months to question digital ads. I always come back to analyses of incrementality as the real proof.

Take an audience of X people. Divide them in two. Show ads to your test group, don't show to control. Watch your business grow and gauge the lift between the two audiences.

The companies that know how to advertise at scale do this constantly and can gauge the real effect of their ad dollars. Facebook, Google and others make these tests possible in their platforms, while other software suites such as Impact Altitude and VisualIQ allow you to do this kind of analysis and testing as well.

In the end, most of it proves out to be incremental. There are notable exceptions of course, but when are there not?

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:33PM (#21468756)
> Show ads to your test group, don't show to control

Which is the wrong experiment to run. The old adage is that 50% of advertising works, you just don't know which part. You need an experiment to prove that ad spending scales with ROI, as ad agencies claim. That may well be completely false.

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by kposehn on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:56PM (#21469695)
That’s the thing - you run these test with individual campaigns in many channels. Digital gives you the ability to test this at scale as you grow your advertising, thus you can gauge with high confidence exactly what advertising is scaling with positive ROI.

Incrementality testing isn’t limited to your advertising as a whole - you can get down to very fine detail as long as your experiment is correctly designed and you wait for stat-sig results.

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by dredmorbius on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:56PM (#21469990)
The basic experiment can be varied to allow for that.

Specify a set of zones. Target different levels of advertising at these. Look at sales trends. Rinse, wash, repeat.

Note that major corporations often designate specific areas for product testing. The Chicago area, and Australia, see trial runs of McDonalds products and store concepts, as an example.

The fundamental concept of testing advertising effectiveness is not new. Here's an account from 1909 (from one of my faviourite sources on advertising and media, Hamilton Holt's Commercialism and Journalism):

https://archive.org/details/commercialismjou00holtuoft/page/...

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by Supermancho on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:58PM (#21469995)
> You need an experiment to prove that ad spending scales with ROI, as ad agencies claim

There is a limited audience that can be influenced. Just like house ads on a site (where you advertise to sell your own goods on your own site), there's only so much that is affected because you have finite traffic. There is a curve for every permutation of context (demographic, geographic, etc).

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by matheusmoreira on Thursday November 07, 2019 @04:08AM (#21471616)
> Take an audience of X people. Divide them in two. Show ads to your test group, don't show to control. Watch your business grow and gauge the lift between the two audiences.

So advertising industries use people as guinea pigs to study the "real effect of their ad dollars". No ethics committee, no informed consent, nothing.

Yet another reason to block all ads.

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by jefftk on Thursday November 07, 2019 @07:59AM (#21472761)
If you can ethically do something (show ads) or not do something (not show ads) it's equally ethical to run an experiment where you do the thing some of the time and measure the effect.

Internet companies run A/B tests all the time, and it's not controversial.

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by ryan93 on Thursday November 07, 2019 @07:49AM (#21472698)
Hyperbolic.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by MiroF on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:07PM (#21469751)
Isn't that literally the test described by FB economists in the article that showed that selection effect was 10x the impact of advertising?
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by switzer on Thursday November 07, 2019 @07:00AM (#21472383)
Agree. I have used the term "incrementality" to communicate the incremental benefit of a given ad compared to a control whereas the article uses "advertising effect". Measurement is also difficult because every ad platform grades their own homework (they each have analytics that attributes sales to their platforms liberally).

It is important for a brand to have their own attribution platform that measures incrementality as well as the relative contribution each ad exposure makes toward a given sale.

Both of these things are possible to measure. The problem is that the band of users that display positive ROI (when incrementality is measured) is so small that people don't believe the data.

Additionally, brand exposure is hard to measure and almost completely ignored in digital advertising. Over time I imagine that there will be more research in this area (beyond just measuring an in-view ad impression)

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by viraptor on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:25PM (#21468707)
How do you separate "people who haven't seen an ad" into a group in Google analytics? I don't believe "organic" source does that, because that means they weren't targeted by the ad in the first place, creating a bias.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by MichaelBurjack on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @07:07PM (#21469026)
Advertisers have many tools to measure "ghost ads" aka "people who haven't seen an ad but would otherwise have qualified for all your target criteria". See https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2620078 as an example.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by viraptor on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @07:14PM (#21469081)
That's of course possible to measure in theory. I meant it as a response to "Facebook, Google and others make these tests possible in their platforms" since I haven't seen it exposed as an explicit option on either.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by MichaelBurjack on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @07:19PM (#21469113)
Then you haven't been talking to the right ad sales teams. Google and Facebook have entire product options built around this specific concept. You can run a "ghost ads" test on Google for as little as $20k in ad spend; it's relatively accessible even for smaller players.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by jsonne on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:05PM (#21470294)
For Facebook, Reach ads have a brand lift objective that will estimate for you. If you spend large amounts they have a measurement team that will run the actual study for you. Source: I'm running one right now for a CPG brand.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by jefftk on Thursday November 07, 2019 @08:10AM (#21472819)
You can run this yourself without any help from them: show one group ads for your site, and show another group white rectangles. Compare performance.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by newtothebay on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:22PM (#21469524)
Facebook has this exactly this tool, aka Conversion / Brand Lift [1]. It's a real experimentation system, not a "simulated" one like Google's Ghost Ad.

[1] https://www.facebook.com/business/help/688346554927374

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by kposehn on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:47PM (#21469655)
Yep. Lift tests are solid gold. A lot of people pan FB ads but the reality is they can be very incremental.

The flip side is that not every campaign, targeting strategy or ad will be incremental. You have to test and retest your way to it. A blanket assumption won’t work.

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by kevinventullo on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:44PM (#21468855)
Off the top of my head, you could do geographic bucketing. Take say 100 cities, and only run ads in 50 of them.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by kposehn on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:49PM (#21469666)
Geo tests are useful for sure, but also require a lot of data to get statistically significant results. Any noise in your data (seasonality, PR, etc) has to be taken into account as well. They’re harder to execute in general but can work well.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by dredmorbius on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:58PM (#21469996)
The interest is more on markets than individuals, in general, so what you're measuring is market response given advertising exposure, or more critically, ROI given spend.

The fact that Web and AdTech allow the appearance of individual-level targeting does not necessarily make that a Good Thing.

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by jsonne on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:42PM (#21470208)
I'm running a campaign that spends about $10,000 a day for a brand on Facebook. In fact at that level they will run said brand lift study for you. So yes, despite this articles implication the data does exist and we do know the difference between advertising to an audience and not.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by mac01021 on Thursday November 07, 2019 @05:16AM (#21471928)
That's millions per year. What general class of industry are you in?
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by djhn on Thursday November 07, 2019 @09:05AM (#21473249)
The average "target" client on the lead list of your average big name advertising agency in a European country with a population of 50 million will have a yearly spend of 50-100 million across all channels, with 1-10 million going on agency fees excluding 3rd party costs. 10k per day on Facebook is a small consumer start-up levels of adspend.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by jsonne on Thursday November 07, 2019 @08:49AM (#21473111)
1. In the grand scheme of advertising it's actually still a fairly small budget. 2. For this advertiser they really only advertise q4 so it isn't quite that much. 3. It's a CPG in a grocery store is all I can really say.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by mobjack on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:59PM (#21468962)
Acquiring an audiences to divide into a split test is the hard part.

It is something that could work for retargeting existing users but doesn't work for acquiring new visitors.

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by MichaelBurjack on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @07:05PM (#21469007)
What makes you believe this to be true?

You define an audience. You split it. You test and measure the result.

What component of that strategy doesn't work for new visitors? Many eyeball vendors (Google, Facebook, heck traditional TV and other media!) are set up precisely to allow for such cases.

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by kposehn on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:52PM (#21469684)
Not quite.

One tool with FB lift tests is to make a lookalike audience. FB will then split that audience in two for you so you have a test and control group.

The original test required two ad accounts and keeping your overall advertising static (not changing anything) for the duration. Today it is much easier and has a lot more features.

Google does a search lift test with YouTube as well. You can run a large set of ads against an audience in YT and google will either suppress them for a subset. Then you can see your overall organic lift based on your video ads.

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by mobjack on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:13PM (#21470338)
FB can track ads using clicks and view through. With a control group, you can only use view through. I am just skeptical of how it is a fair test especially when FB has an interest to prove that ads work.

YouTube brand lift is an indirect measure that is hard to translate to actual sales to see if the ads were cost effective.

The math is fuzzy when measuring marketing ads and it is real hard to be truly scientific.

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by jefftk on Thursday November 07, 2019 @08:14AM (#21472843)
The proper test is to use viewthrough for both the experiment and control
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by dredmorbius on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:07PM (#21470044)
The concept, principles, and methods, are taught in the context of marketing and advertising academic programmes.

See, e.g., ADVT5440 and ADVT5501 at Webster University, for example:

This course emphasizes the importance of critical thinking in the planning and development of message strategy for advertising and other marketing communications tools. Class discussions explore the decision making process and development of criteria for evaluation of alternative message strategies.

http://www.webster.edu/catalog/current/graduate-catalog/cour...

Or in related textbooks, e.g.,

https://www.worldcat.org/title/marketing/oclc/61458339

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by nopriorarrests on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:07PM (#21468581)
This is a very interesting point, which in fact plays in defense of original article.

Bob Hoffmann, very influential figure in advertising (http://adcontrarian.blogspot.com/) likes to point out that there were not that many companies which built their strong brand with online advertising only.

OK, he is old and grumpy dude and he dislikes online ads, but this is a fair point. Once company becomes big enough, it strives to buy a Super Bowl ad spot. And we are well into 10 years of internet being mainstream media, but how many brands were built online only? Not that much, and I'm saying it as "online ads work", kind of guy.

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by Supermancho on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:02PM (#21470023)
I can name a handful that I've never seen an ad for on TV or in print (or maybe 3 or 4 years after using them). Twitter, DoorDash, Lyft...compared to SkipTheDishes in Canada, which has commercials on during SNL but maybe it's already hit peak internet marketing there, or maybe more appropriately GoDaddy which wasn't much until their Superbowl ad.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by hgskncrimcss on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:39PM (#21470428)
Google Twitter, DoorDash, and Lyft + billboard. Just one example, they all do plenty of non-online advertising.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by sfifs on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:38PM (#21468801)
Another thing marketers in US and to a certain extent Europe fail to see is how digital has evolved in Asia and think through what it means for their own work. The same marketing giants which spend 90% of the hundreds of millions of dollars per brand per year on TV in the US spend 90% in digital in China and are increasingly shifting in other Asia markets. This reflects shifting consumer time spent on vehicle.

Now big company marketers are used to thinking of US as a homogeneous market for efficiency reasons and so TV still works in US if your target audience claims a broad demographic. However, they're beginning to learn that you'll simply not reach enough consumers if your target demographic is say young adults in the West coast if you do a TV heavy plan. US in general lags China in media landscape shift but the media behavior of the more valuable demographics are actually much closer to China than averages tell you.

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:30PM (#21468735)
the article isnt making the point that there is no value in advertising, but that it's highly overstated. One really needs ads - the 're a very effective way to reach users. But after that initial push, does spending more really return more?
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by bigger_cheese on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:22PM (#21470116)
One thing I've always thought about ads is the subconscious impact that they have of building brand recognition and awareness. Especially for something which would typically be purchased infrequently or irregularly.

I might be at a grocery store and I need to purchase something like dishwashing liquid. If I'm staring at two brands on the shelf priced identically (or near enough) I'm more likely to purchase the brand I recognize over a brand I've never heard of. How do I recognize the brand - from advertising.

That is not something you can measure with tracking metrics embedded into a banner ad. I'm sure there must be studies on impact this has.

The other thing I suspect online advertising works very well for is service based businesses, the kinds of things you used to look up in a phonebook. The last time I needed to find a plumber I typed my suburb name + plumber into search engine I imagine a lot of people do similar.

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by mehh on Thursday November 07, 2019 @03:14AM (#21471397)
This is exactly why TV advertising is still important to those brands!
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by onion2k on Thursday November 07, 2019 @05:10AM (#21471901)
...there are plenty of smart operators that built their entire brand and revenue off of ads.

Can you name one?

I find it very hard to believe there are any companies that have scaled up only using online adverts. Why would the founders of a business do that when they can grow in their local market by talking to people as well as buying online ads for wider reach?

Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by josephjrobison on Tuesday November 19, 2019 @03:34PM (#21577963)
MVMT Watches, Boll & Branch, Casper, so many DTCs. Yes at some point word of mouth kicks in!
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by niknikson on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @11:27PM (#21521177)
Wayfair - you can listen to the NPR podcast "How I built this" where they talk about building their entire business around domain names and pay-per-click advertising (7 billion market cap).
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by jefftk on Thursday November 07, 2019 @08:16AM (#21472857)
Here's one I worked on when I was at CogoLabs: https://venturefizz.com/deals/autotegrity-acquired-adp
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by robryan on Thursday November 07, 2019 @09:07PM (#21479437)
This wouldn't be too uncommon in branded ecommerce. If you are selling well known brands it is going to be very hard to get decent organic search rankings for them in the short term.
Re:What do we really know about the effectiveness of digital... by H8crilA on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:06PM (#21468572)
Yeah the golden egg may be in long term influence of advertising, which is super hard to measure.