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Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by tyingq on Monday October 21, 2019 @01:30PM (#21314901)
"The charges don’t appear to be a case of cloud providers gouging their customers"

I disagree on this one. The margins on egress are, well...egregious.

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by partiallypro on Monday October 21, 2019 @02:54PM (#21315874)
If I'm not mistaken AWS has the highest egress rates of the major cloud providers.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by tyingq on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:28PM (#21316220)
All of them (AWS, GCP, Azure) are priced outrageously compared to high quality, well peered, bandwidth.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by q3k on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:39PM (#21316363)
GCP is pretty good though. Cold-potato, very fat backbone, and very good presence at a ton of PoPs. When using GCP you basically have the same global, high-bandwidth direct connectivity presence that Google uses for its products, and that is very difficult to match by traditional T1 ISPs.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by heleninboodler on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:56PM (#21316556)
Ok, help me out: "cold-potato"? :D
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by lokar on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:02PM (#21316620)
Vs "hot potato"

Hold onto the packet for as long as you can vs hand it off to your peer as quickly as possible.

Most networks do "hot", Google does "cold" since their network is almost always better than that of the peer.

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by Jarwain on Tuesday October 22, 2019 @03:24AM (#21321093)
The origin of which, for those who aren't familiar, is a game called "hot potato" where you try to pass a ball around as quickly as possible as if it was a hot potato
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by Havoc on Monday October 21, 2019 @05:29PM (#21317626)
Weird terminology. Thanks for explaining though
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by techsupporter on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:01PM (#21316610)
It is the inverse of “hot potato” routing where the network tries to get rid of a packet as soon as possible (that is, drop a hot potato). Cold potato means the network keeps the packet on-network as long as it can.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by codexon on Monday October 21, 2019 @05:45PM (#21317805)
Cold potato is not necessarily better, actually its often times worse than hot potato and usually used to lower costs so you don't have to pay other people for transit.

For example, a cold potato network may have a link from Dallas to Chicago to New York, while a hot potato network could have a direct link from Dallas to New York.

Cogent uses cold potato and is frequently worse than other transit providers.

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by gcommer on Monday October 21, 2019 @06:02PM (#21317958)
Google's cold potato is very good though.

(Also, they offer the option to use hot potato and pay them less: https://cloud.google.com/network-tiers/docs/overview )

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by achiang on Monday October 21, 2019 @11:09PM (#21320039)
Thanks, you made my day.

I'm a Google network SRE, but perhaps I'll get new business cards saying "cold potato engineer".

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by Dylan16807 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:29AM (#21331379)
So it's hard to value the premium for google cold potato specifically, if it outclasses everything else.

But their hot potato still costs $65+ per TB at medium volumes and $45+ per TB at high volumes. That is still extremely high compared to normal peering costs.

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by tyingq on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:59PM (#21317284)
It does have advantages, but it's not always worth the difference of "several cents per GB" versus "fractions of a cent per GB".
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by ikiris on Monday October 21, 2019 @05:06PM (#21317361)
Walmart is generally cheaper than a steak restaurant. YMMV, and they both have their uses. Its worth going to both.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by tyingq on Monday October 21, 2019 @07:06PM (#21318562)
That's a very odd analogy, and overstating the difference.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by griffinkelly on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:43PM (#21317109)
My company was getting massive bills on AWS S3 egress. It was one of the reasons we moved to Wasabi for bucket storage; we then had to deal with a huge one time hit for egress, but in the long run the short term cost was worth it.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by zmmmmm on Monday October 21, 2019 @05:18PM (#21317498)
Do you think Wasabi is sustainable? I looked at them but find it hard to believe they can sustain free unlimited egress forever.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by DenseComet on Monday October 21, 2019 @05:43PM (#21317784)
I like the Cloudflare/Backblaze duo. Presumably data stays on Cloudflare's network for as long as possible and goes to Backblaze via direct links, so Backblaze can provide free egress to Cloudflare customers (and customers of other serivces like Packet, etc.), while charging others.

This seems more sustainable than Wasabi's model, but there's no way of knowing for sure.

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by mitchs on Tuesday October 22, 2019 @04:16AM (#21321323)
I just put 1 TB in AWS/Azure/GCP's cost calculators.

AWS (US East 1, no free tier) - $92.07

Azure (East US) - $88.65

GCP (Americals) - $122.88

I'm quite surprised by GCP being the highest cost here, and by such a wide margin.

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by partiallypro on Friday October 25, 2019 @11:06PM (#21361444)
Backblaze has good rates, but it's only really good for storage...which is their main use. I am also surprised GCS (GCP?) is so high. Last a checked AWS was the highest, maybe they cut their rates. I am a pretty happy Azure customer. My only complaint really are their service plans being subpar, but now I've switched over to their IaaS model and it's much better.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by api on Monday October 21, 2019 @01:44PM (#21315058)
The point is to make it easy to move data in and hard to move it out.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by GhettoMaestro on Monday October 21, 2019 @02:46PM (#21315790)
Yup. It is like a gravity well. Escape velocity is your egress data charges ;)
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by vitro on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:11PM (#21316052)
Doctor Who: World Enough and Time
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by PopeDotNinja on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:11PM (#21316048)
Someone should set up a big fat pipe right outside of Amazon data centers with free unlimited transfers, get data on behalf of customers copied to hard drives from AWS, and then attach those hard drives to the Uber pipe. I bet that service could work for a short & glorious moment in time.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by tyho on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:24PM (#21316181)
Amazon beat you to it: https://aws.amazon.com/snowball/
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by tyingq on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:30PM (#21316248)
Snowball still charges ~3 cents/GB to get it out of S3 and into Snowball.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by tyho on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:47PM (#21316447)
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by bobbonew on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:11PM (#21316735)
Keeping track of all the different offerings AWS has is a full time job.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by NikolaeVarius on Monday October 21, 2019 @09:45PM (#21319592)
Someone does it for you https://www.lastweekinaws.com/

I am completely unaffiliated with this site, I just enjoy it

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by mey on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:27PM (#21316918)
Cloud architect is a title as a result.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by cptaj on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:24PM (#21316890)
It literally is.

I've been a developer for 10 years and AWS seems to me like its intentionally designed to be as messy as possible.

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by croh on Tuesday October 22, 2019 @03:07AM (#21321031)
Totally agree. AWS should learn something from DO, instead of racking up services. Inconsistent UI completely sucks. It makes very difficult to track resources and billing. Resources from different regions need to be managed separately. Billing is too much complicated. I always feel AWS is hype. Very few applications need scaling like Netflix. But as it is now industry standard, people are adopting it blindly without considering usecases.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by rbdeveloper on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:01AM (#21335304)
Fun fact is, that Netflix only hosts their website on AWS, the video stream is delivered from their very own CDN which is completely self-engineered by them and multiple magnitudes cheaper than AWS: https://openconnect.netflix.com/
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by NotSammyHagar on Monday October 21, 2019 @05:11PM (#21317424)
no prices. don't underestimate the bandwidth of a fully loaded tractor trailer, 21st century style
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by ceejayoz on Monday October 21, 2019 @05:00PM (#21317304)
I'm disappointed that one doesn't appear to be available via API.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by bdcravens on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:13PM (#21316072)
That would still require egress.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by PopeDotNinja on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:30PM (#21316238)
How about just sending Freedom Of Information Act request to the NSA asking them for a copy of your data. I think this is a joke...
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by otterley on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:37PM (#21317025)
Government agencies can (and often do) charge FOIA processing fees. Not that this has anything to do with cloud egress charges though.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by aidos on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:19PM (#21316124)
I was going to say it’d be an improvement but I can’t actually make sense of the AWS Snowball proving

https://aws.amazon.com/snowball/pricing/

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by lelandbatey on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:35PM (#21316312)
The pricing seems relatively clear:

A flat fee for the act of a human getting the data onto the physical medium ($200) + the cost of shipping (<$100?) + $15 per day you keep the snowball device past the first + price per GB of data you're transferring ($0.03 per/GB).

So if your getting out 30 TB of data that's $200 + ~$100 + ($0.03 * 30000) = ~$1200

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by aidos on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:00PM (#21316607)
I was confused by the “Standard Amazon S3 storage and request pricing applies.” That seems to be a different thing from the extra S3 transfer costs.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by progval on Monday October 21, 2019 @04:26PM (#21316904)
Does Amazon want that, though? There are efforts for other providers to avoid bandwidth cost: https://www.cloudflare.com/bandwidth-alliance/ but Amazon isn't in there
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by jrs235 on Monday October 21, 2019 @01:46PM (#21315095)
Just like a roach motel!
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by reallydontask on Monday October 21, 2019 @02:42PM (#21315740)
or Hotel California ...
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by snagglegaggle on Monday October 21, 2019 @01:34PM (#21314934)
At some point everyone realized they could charge a massive premium per bit and as long as everyone did it, customers would have to pay. So here we are.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by notaround1111 on Monday October 21, 2019 @01:43PM (#21315047)
Customers are also to blame, when comparing the costs of two services they tend to look at the cost of an instance hour, or lambda execution and often don't look at transfer costs.

Even if a cloud provider had competitive transfer costs they likely wouldn't attract any new customers and would have less margin left over to subsidize the main cost customers look at, $ per instance hour.

The less attention is paid to transfer costs the better for AWS/GCP/Azure. Why hasn't a spot-market for transfer been introduced? Same reason why I can't sell my unused home internet bandwidth to my neighbors, the money is in controlling the means of transportation/communication and the providers want to keep as tight a control on that as possible.

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by coleca on Monday October 21, 2019 @01:49PM (#21315133)
I wouldn't blame customers when the pricing for data transfer looks like this: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/open-guides/og-aws/master/...

(Source Open Guide to AWS - https://github.com/open-guides/og-aws)

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by Pfhreak on Monday October 21, 2019 @01:57PM (#21315230)
This seems a little deliberately obtuse -- for example, showing two arrows from an EC2 instance to an EC2 instance that exits the VPC. But I generally don't find this too hard to follow? Traffic within an AZ is generally free, but there are some cases where it's not and they generally make sense to me (leaving the VPC, pushing data from your CDN back upstream, etc.)

Then again, I worked for AWS for years, so maybe I'm just used to thinking this way so I'm not really surprised by it.

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by snagglegaggle on Monday October 21, 2019 @02:03PM (#21315292)
There was a time when you paid for available bandwidth. Then network operators realized they could oversell their capacity and not spend the money to upgrade their network.

You still see paying for bandwidth with residential connections, though some operators (like Comcast) are trying to do away with it.

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by fauigerzigerk on Monday October 21, 2019 @03:00PM (#21315923)
>But I generally don't find this too hard to follow?

This is just the static picture though. What's harder to predict are the consequences of some innocuous looking code change.

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by Pfhreak on Monday October 21, 2019 @09:13PM (#21319400)
Sure, but surely teams have monitoring on their usage, right? With automated rollbacks or at least one click manual rollbacks?
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by fauigerzigerk on Tuesday October 22, 2019 @03:34AM (#21321144)
Sure, but rolling back work that was already done is a waste of development resources.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by Pfhreak on Tuesday October 22, 2019 @11:08PM (#21330695)
Disagree. It's much more wasteful to have an outage. Roll back asap, fix the issue, roll forward, do post mortem, grow as an organization. Never repeat the same mistake.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by fauigerzigerk on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @04:57AM (#21332626)
We're obviously talking past each other.

What I'm saying is that for a hosting architecture to make it difficult to predict the cost of any code change is a downside compared to an architecture that makes such predictions easy and intuitive.

Of course you will try to mitigate any downsides and learn what you can from any mistakes. But unpredictability makes learning far more difficult than it should, which inevitably means a waste of development resources.

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by YawningAngel on Monday October 21, 2019 @02:28PM (#21315567)
I don't think this is true. At $JOB the extent of our cloud cost management is me reading a breakdown by SKU and looking for obvious inefficiencies, and we are very aware of transit fees. I would imagine that anyone in the 5MM+ range has actual models that account for this stuff.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by snagglegaggle on Monday October 21, 2019 @01:55PM (#21315206)
I think this has more to do with collusion than consumer behavior. On average consumers are very rational, even if their rationality is hard to explain.

The issue with per-bit pricing is that a fair agreement for network use would probably look like paying a fee that makes up for the amortization of the network equipment. Anything else is an artificially restricted market created in an attempt to extract more value out of consumers by having them bid against each other.

At some point, yes, we will run out of places to put the switches and routers and then the cost of connectivity will be closer to the cost of land use and will mimic rent, but we are a ways away from that.

Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by gwright on Monday October 21, 2019 @05:24PM (#21317574)
Why do you think that bandwidth costs should only cover the hardware? What about the electricity, rent, payroll, sales, marketing, administrative staff, insurance, accountants, lawyers, etc.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by snagglegaggle on Monday October 21, 2019 @06:06PM (#21318006)
Well, by hardware I meant its maintenance as well. Doing so still leads you initially to the sale of bandwidth, not a bidding system.
Re:AWS Customers Rack Up Hefty Bills for Moving Data by nickles on Monday October 21, 2019 @02:50PM (#21315838)
> Why hasn't a spot-market for transfer been introduced?

Enron tried to create a market for this.

[0] https://www.wired.com/2001/11/enron-a-bandwidth-bloodbath/