Tesla 3 owner here. Beyond tapping up / down temperature arrows I don't ever need to touch my A/C settings and it remembers my settings when I pick my profile (and soon it will recognize me automatically) so I think it's less annoying than analog setup personally.

Okay, but you're only looking at the (very minor) difference in user experience, without looking at all you're giving up. How easy is it to repair your A/C? If you can't or don't want to repair it yourself, can you hire someone other than Tesla to do it? Is not having to turn a knob worth having your car collect a bunch of personal data on you?

In accordance with Parkinson's Law of Triviality[1], the only discussion my post has generated has been about the experience of touch screens versus knobs, without talking about the more complicated repairability and security issues. My impression of Tesla is that they understand Parkinson's Law very well, and are working hard to get the color of the metaphorical bike shed just right. That's not to say that they're getting the nuclear reactor completely wrong, it's just to say that everyone's talking about the bike shed when the nuclear reactor is way more important.

At the end of the day, what I said was ultimately my preference, and your preference is your preference, and there aren't an objective arguments we can make that will change each other's subjective preferences. I'm just frustrated that the direction the industry seems to be going will cater to what you want, and not to what I want.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality

Another user mentioned the Bollinger brand, they are making their EV's completely analog -- even more analog than ICE cars, their philosophy may be right up your alley. Unfortunately it doesn't sound like they're going for mass market (yet).

You should also look into how the A/C system works on the model 3, it's fascinating how simple it really is. It literally uses air to push the air up and down. This reduces the complexity with less moving parts. It's a very genius system IMO. Tech Forum YouTube channel made a video of it disassembled so you can see how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvNkcPcrBxw

> Another user mentioned the Bollinger brand, they are making their EV's completely analog -- even more analog than ICE cars, their philosophy may be right up your alley. Unfortunately it doesn't sound like they're going for mass market (yet).

Yeah, I saw that other comment and if the reality is even close to the marketing materials, those are gonna be awesome vehicles. I probably wouldn't get one new unless the price is very low (the benefits of buying new aren't worth the loss in value that happens when you drive a new car off the lot, IMO). So by the time they start hitting the used market I expect the reality will be clearer.

> You should also look into how the A/C system works on the model 3, it's fascinating how simple it really is. It literally uses air to push the air up and down. This reduces the complexity with less moving parts. It's a very genius system IMO.

I dunno, it's simpler in that there are fewer moving parts, but from the video it seems like part of how that was achieved was by using existing plastic molding and whatnot to direct the air, which makes it harder to replace i.e. one duct in isolation--it's not very modular. And having simpler moving parts is a small decrease in complexity compared to the increased complexity of digital controls. Of course it's hard to tell from the video, so that impression has to be taken with a grain of salt.

i have an analog vehicle, and the car doesn't need to have to remember my settings because they are physically in the same location.

And what if you share your car with someone who prefers different settings?

Then they change the settings, and if they're a considerate human being, they change them back. If they're not, then you get to grumble a bit, change them back yourself, and consider not sharing your car with that person again. I don't think the world has lost anything substantial here.

Just realized I might be a grumpy old man.

Maybe you always share your car with a partner that's 25 centimeters shorter than you, requiring different settings for seat & steering weel position, and also has a different body composition that makes them want different climate control settings.

It shouldn't be so controversial to claim that automatic adjustment of settings is a net UX win this this common scenario.

Since at least 1987, Cadillac is offering this with simple hardware push buttons. We have that in a VW "group" car and turning the dial in the center console allow to adjust as needed the temperature + airflow in less than 1 second.

This problem was solved over a decade ago with memorized seating positions tied to the key fob. It wouldn’t have been too much of a stretch (pun not intended!) to memorize and set the temperature alongside the other settings using the existing system.

That's literally what the tesla does. You tie a profile to a key, card, or phone.

Right - I meant that it can also be accomplished with an old-school analog system, too. It doesn't require a tablet-based system like Tesla's as a baseline.

There's no tablet involved after the initial setup you do when you buy the car. As soon as I unlock the car, everything moves into place.

And for the set up, it is analog. There's 2 trackball-like things you jigger around to move your seat, mirrors, and steering column.

Is the climate control analog, too? That's really what I'm referring to.

The climate control is tied to your key fob too so it changes based on who unlocks it. It even stores the direct of the vents for people who like air in their face vs over their head or below their feet.

Sure, but this doesn't matter much to me. You're objectively right that this fits someone's wants, but it doesn't fit my wants.

I have yet to come across a problem on an old Jeep Cherokee or Toyota Tacoma that I couldn't figure out how to fix with a little help from the internet, and I'm by no means a car expert. Sometimes the parts cost or size has shut me down, but not the complexity. An electric motor is far simpler than a gasoline engine, so it should be easier to work on, not harder. Can you fix your Tesla's A/C if it breaks? Can most mechanics fix your Tesla's A/C if it breaks?

We're arguing different things. I was responding to a criticism that implied the "remember your settings" feature has no value when compared to a vehicle where all settings are set with physical buttons.

The point you're arguing boils down to a difference of preferences and philosophy, which is of course perfectly fine. Not everyone has the same preferences.

> And what if you share your car with someone who prefers different settings?

There have been cars that change various settings depending on the key fob used ("hers and his"):

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSoJPgFSDOE

Before fobs, where you actually put the key in the ignition hols, there were cars with "memory buttons".

Spending 5 seconds changing the 3 settings that matter occasionally isn't a problem I care about.

Not being able to fix my own car because you've used space age technology to solve turning a dial IS a problem I care about.

Like in any modern analog car, the knobs are free spinning and therefore remember their settings. It’s a tactile version of tapping a screen that is a better UX IMHO. When my significant other uses my car, they hit #2 on the preset settings and everything slides and turns into place. This is a well solved problem and has been for many years. Note: I am a former P85D Model S owner.

Free spinning knobs are not analog, but digital encoders.

“relating to or using signals or information represented by a continuously variable physical quantity such as spatial position, voltage, etc.” - from our friends at Oxford.

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/analog

Similar to the changing the seat or steering wheel position, except easier to dial it back.

Having to fiddle with a touch screen to manage windshield wipers is unnecessary.

The wipers wipe automatically when the camera detects rain on the windshield. If you want to do a window clean you just push the button on the end of the blinker handle on the left of the steering wheel. It's one of the few physical buttons of the 3.

How well does the auto wipe behave on Tesla’s? I’ve owned multiple cars with the feature over the last 10 years - the only one which has ever got it close was a Lexus (quite some time ago). The rest I’ve had and still need to constantly police.

It's a solved problem on newer cars.

What I want next is an automatic sunscreen that slides down based on sensing the angle of the sunlight. I think there is also technology to dynamically darken glass that could be used. I hereby grant a free perpetual license to auto manufacturers to use this idea. :)

> I think there is also technology to dynamically darken glass that could be used.

Looked into it previously. Even if you got it to work, it likely would not be street legal, as there are pretty strict regulations on what part of the windshield can or cannot be tinted.

I haven't had to manually turn on the wipers, but I have had to turn them off on one or two occasions when the computer _thought_ it was raining for some reason.

Works OK on my 2016 Seat Alhambra. There's a little control that lets you adjust frequency/sensitivity on the wiper stalk.

It's behaved very well for me. There was only one instance when I was in a drive thru that it wiped the window even though it was dry, not sure if it was because the angle of the sunlight hitting some dirt or something.

I have a fairly new car, one of VW's brands, and at best I twiddle with the sensitivity a bit from time to time, but that's mostly unnecessary.

I don't know about other cars, but on my 2014 Passat it works flawlessly. I don't remember ever having to manually touch it.

2012 Passat and two Priuses (2nd and 3rd gen), all worked 95% of the time.

So 3 minutes of every hour of rain were left unwiped? Sounds dangerous. Or was that "internet statistics"?

Now that's just unlucky for parent :)

The great thing about the touch screen is not the UI experience, but the flexibility when it comes to updates that also include new features. When you go the hardware controller route on a product that is still heavily being interrated on, you quickly run out of intuitive ways to clearly label and/or manipulate things or an exzessive number of buttons with integrated screens (to indicate their function in any given context), neither of which is great UX wise and also pretty expensive.

>The great thing about the touch screen is ... the flexibility when it comes to updates that also include new features

That's the main problem. Change is good only if it's optional, by choice. Forced redesign only makes designers happy, because they can now stop looking at that old version that they released some years ago and want to sunset it.

If you look at the 2012 Tesla dashboard, you'll see that it's influenced by really aged design patterns, it's good that they iterate on the UI as long as it's kept in check and doesn't become a Windows 7 to Windows 8 fiasco.

How often do you find yourself wanting to tweak the rate?

Rate is set automatically based on the amount of rain. The wiper clears the windshield for the cameras for autopilot so it keeps the view clear. I haven't had the urge to adjust the rate yet.

My car has that, but I tend to manually adjust it regardless as I find it's often a bit to slow or a tad too fast. Maybe I'm just picky. Or maybe your car's algorithm is better :-).

They also automatically turn on in the car wash.

v10 added car wash mode, maybe this is the reason

Tesla owners are known to be willing put up with things other car owners aren't. I don't want to fool around with a touchscreen in traffic.

You can use the steering wheel and scroll up or down and you changed the temperature. No fooling around with touchscreen in traffic. It’s way better than any analog system I’ve used across Jeep’s and Audi’s.

You can control temperature, fan speed, brightness, and more all from the steering wheel.

Yes: https://youtu.be/kLIBYlgsHis?t=560

That video tutorial is now outdated since there has been many UI improvements, but the steps should still be the same.

Are you not highlighting another problem.

Buttons are always in the same place, I know where they are, I don't have to go hunting for the thing that used to be there, but is now in a sub sub menu, meanwhile you aren't looking where you're going.

Geez people. It's NOT a submenu.. You just move the scroll-wheel up and down or push it to turn it on/off. It's that simple. It's also the default behavior.

Here: https://youtu.be/_eyxkzaNZX0

Do you get it now? Taking your hands off the steering wheel involves more steps compared to this.

> Taking your hands off the steering wheel involves...

Taking your hands off the steering wheel has never been a problem. Taking your eyes off the road is.

That being said, if you want to set a certain temperature with analog controls, you still need to look at the number (showing the degrees). Still, in other cars you can see that number all the time, you don't have to go into some menu. There is a dedicated physical button for that one function.

I avoid looking at the number by turning the dial all the way down (so I know where it is) and then up to where I want it.

The video you linked contains menus and submenus.

Yes for other controls. But the DEFAULT scroll functions controls the A/C you can see that its the top item when pressing the menu NOT scrollwheel

I made that video because this keeps coming up, I know how it works...

Maybe for that one example. In general a changing UI is not a good thing whilst trying to concentrate on other things. It isn't about hands on wheel, its about mental load, a hardware button is muscle memory, I don't have to look at it, I don't have think about it.

Ahhh backpedaling now are we? The topic was about A/C control... Hence that's the specific video proof I provided.

> It isn't about hands on wheel, its about mental load, a hardware button is muscle memory, I don't have to look at it, I don't have think about it. reply

I don't have to look to use the scroll wheel controls too. Did you not see on the video that they are physical buttons? What's your point exactly?

Why am I backpedalling? The conversation is allowed to evolve, you're the one who raised the point about the changing UI.

"I don't have to look to use the scroll wheel controls too"

No you have to look at the screen, while you're trying to find the thing that was right there before the update.

> No you have to look at the screen, while you're trying to find the thing that was right there before the update.

Anecdotally speaking no... The item order have NOT changed from updates since 2012. I own the car and I am not speculating here. The UI change I mentioned was mainly aesthetic, similar to the iOS 6 to 7 color/look change.

I even said it should be the same even with the updates on my original post?

> The conversation is allowed to evolve

Sure, whine on

Give me physical buttons and knobs any day. I'm afraid with the direction that things are going, that may become more and more difficult, and go the way of crank windows and manual transmissions, however.

Oh well. The way that sticker prices keep going up on new pickup trucks, frankensteining old ones together and rebuilding the engines and transmissions is looking like more and more of a viable and cost-effective option.

Get yourself a horse and buggy. Time tested approach. Just watch out for the manure.

Fortunately, one by one, car manufacturers are starting to get over the entire touchscreen fad, for example Mazda: https://thenewswheel.com/mazda-eliminates-touch-screens/

I'm more than slightly annoyed that it starts with "choose menu"!!!

The demo person is constantly looking at his screen instead of in front of him.

For example, here is Audi's A/C controls in all of their new vehicles:

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1iETfhnSPY1JjSZPcq6xIwpXaw/ZWE...

You not only have to take a hand off the steering wheel, but also look to see which lever you want/need to press. If I'm changing the temperature I know where the dial is, but I also have to look to see what I'm setting it to.

I'm surprised people here think analog controls are a bulletproof solution to the same problems you're criticizing Tesla for. I have a hunch that if there were YouTube videos watching people change climate control settings in their car they'd not only be required to take hand off the wheel but also look down and away for a small period of time. Tesla's isn't perfect but you get to keep both hands on the steering wheel and head looking straight, but down ever so slightly.

We're criticizing bad UI design and the attitude that digital touch interface is automatically without fault and order of magnitudes superior to whatever was established in the last hundred years.

You can make bad UI with or without buttons.

Remember VCR clock controls?

I don't know if anyone has said digital touch is superior, I don't think it is. It's just a different way of solving the same problem. Can it be updated in the future unlike analog? Yep. Can you feel it with your hands like you can with analog? Nope.

I feel like I see more people saying first that digital is terrible and it should be analog, that they'll never get a car that has digital. The reasons they list are still true for analog though.

It doesn't matter if they "say" it. They act like they do and it speaks just as much.

Everywhere I look (modulo self bias) I find people that are in awe of the digital touch interface. In contrast I don't find people in awe of analog buttons. They just use them and complain when they don't work for whatever reason. Digital interface touch "buttons" don't work on cars. We complain. It's simple.

I also want to complain how Lamborginis have no manual transmission. Don't wanna drive something that boring.

The Mazda EVs coming out over the next couple of years won't have touchscreens, if that's close enough for you.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur...

Get yourself a used Ford Focus Electric. The range is small, but it's the perfect commuter car and is the closest thing to an "analog" electric car you'll find. Ford took the high-end Titanium body and interior and grafted the electric drivetrain into it.

Any gas car converted to electric is universally terrible. They have to mount the batteries extremely high because the chassis wasn't built for the batteries and this results in utterly horrible handling because the center of mass is too high.

Handling doesn't matter in city commuting. People also seem happy to buy SUVs and crossovers which have much higher centres of mass than hatchbacks.

Handling of a SUV, usefulness of a hatchback. It's like the worst of both worlds.

>usefulness of a hatchback

i.e. very? They've sold millions of them, that's not for the track performance.

I don't really want a commuter car. I live in an area with lots of snow, and when there's not snow on the ground I'm often driving to areas with less-than-ideal roads (for rock climbing). The way I use my Tacoma would eat that car alive. :D

Completely agree. I want old school dials with needles on a regular dash and zero screens anywhere in my car. I just want the propulsion of the car to be decoupled from burning fossil fuels. All the other dumb tech can go.

The fact that part of this update puts Netflix and Hulu in a car is one of the dumbest things I’ve heard.

Car companies figured out instrumentation a while ago, it’s not something that needed to be ‘disrupted’.

Most of the dumb stuff seems to come from designing a car that isn’t meant to be driven. @ Folks who don't want to drive your cars, the solution exists, it’s called public transit, and the reason it sucks is because of cars.

Auto tuning radios are quite nice, and automatic chokes.

But in general I agree, I don't want to be battling some interface whilst I'm trying to drive.

I'm surprised there havent been moves in Europe to ban the Tesla type, everything on a tablet setup. I'm not allowed to use a phone whilst driving, why is a big screen on the centre console any different?

Isn’t the conversation the main distraction with phones, exacerbated by the fact the other person can’t see the hazard you are approaching.

I was under the impression that tesla lets you adjust most of the settings using voice command, is that incorrect?

Are you suggesting from a safety point of view?

Perhaps? I know the latest studies suggest hands free phone calls aren't much better than handed phone calls [1], I don't know if there would be a difference between a conversation and barking out instructions in this context.

Id still prefer buttons.

[1] https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/international/2016/07/...

I personally believe texting while driving to be the main issue.

The number of times I’ve seen people cars swivel around on the highway texting can’t be counted.

If I’m driving with someone and I see cars behave erratic I usually bet the driver is texting. Mostly they are and it’s just too obvious - it’s for some reason a specific pattern to it. I can’t be alone in noticing this?

They do course adjustment less ofent and more jerky. It looks lile they are practicing driving for the first times.

I dont know if from safety point of view using voice command is far less unsafe than using buttons. Prolonged conversation on phone (handheld or free) is quite different.

It's funny cause I used to have the same opinion, but then I saw the new Porsche Taycan and now I think Tesla is still very modest in comparison.

And then you have companies like Mazda who actually advocate the return of analog control (mentioned in another comment here).

The Taycan looks really cool, but it starts at 150k. And Tesla has autopilot. Tesla Model S is a fast car, but's also marketed to buyers who probably would not want to pay 150k+ for a Porsche.

There seems to be a lot of BlackBerry owners in this thread!

Don't you find a reversing camera useful? You can see much more than with your rear view mirror.

I find the latency of these things to be really bad, and the "wide-angle" view is never wide enough (and what is with all of the parking guide lines they draw that never seem correct?)

...but then most modern cars seem to have abysmal visibility through the back windows anyway. The rear view from a 20 year old Micra I often drive is excellent, much better than any of the more modern cars I have hired.

I've never had one and I've never backed into anything without it.

I'm not really opposed to reversing cameras by themselves, but a) it takes up dashboard real estate for a feature I don't really use, and b) as soon as you put a screen on the dashboard, the company is going to want to put all sorts of annoying "features" into it.

Backup cams are mandated now, so it's good thing they didn't rely on this sample size of 1. Small children and pets everywhere will be less likely to get run over as a result.

The company puts those features in there because the market is telling them to. Bad UX is orthogonal to that fact.

As an additional feature, yes, not as a replacement. The great thing about actual mirrors is that they don't need power to function and they can be replaced with any other in worst case.

Not needing power is kind of a moot point for an electric car tbh.

I am talking about the points of failure:

Mirror: Glas and attachment to car.

Rear View Camera: display, camera, any of the wiring in between, a few fuses.

Sounds like you want the Bollinger B1.

https://bollingermotors.com/bollinger-b1/

That actually looks like exactly what I want, but we'll see if the reality lives up to their marketing materials.

The drive system is seperate from the screen MCU. If it crashes, the car still drives fine.

I think the GP is just rallying against digital interfaces, which is fair. Physical buttons and dials have far superior UX for cars.

As an M3 user I can confirm.

Boy is it a thrill driving a car you have no instrumentation for! You can't even see how fast you're going.

Whenever I drive, it's perfectly located in my peripheral vision and easy to check. I even feel that moving it a bit out from the center actually encourages to keep my attention on the road rather than the instruments.

> Whenever I drive, it's perfectly located in my peripheral vision and easy to check.

...which is obviously irrelevant, if you've read the grandparent comment of your comment. Please read context before responding.

I'd amend this a bit. I'm happy with digital read-outs, however driver input should in most cases through an analogue knob or switch.

I love Carplay in my car, but I'm luck enough ti have physical volume and next/last track button on a steering wheel stalk.

> I'd amend this a bit. I'm happy with digital read-outs, however driver input should in most cases through an analogue knob or switch.

Yeah, I can agree that some digital readouts are okay. It's really difficult to communicate succinctly what I don't like about modern digital car interfaces.

I felt the same way before I got my Model 3, however I find that I don't really notice the lack of analog controls. I think the virtual keyboard on a smartphone is a good analogy. A tactile, analog button is better but a touchscreen is good enough.

Most electric cars like the Leaf and Niro EV have traditional analog controls for AC and most other features. The touchscreen is mostly used for Satnav and music/radio in those cars. And really can you imagine Satnav without a touchscreen keyboard?

> And really can you imagine Satnav without a touchscreen keyboard

If you've ever sat in a recent upscale European car, you can. Unlike touch-screen keyboard solutions, entering destinations via scroll-wheel keyboard (like BMW does) or via guided voice entry is easily and safely possible while driving.

> The touchscreen is mostly used for Satnav and music/radio in those cars.

I already have a smartphone, which does both of these things better, and which I've already configured to my liking. The only thing a car can do better than my phone for either of these use cases is audio, so just give me a jack please.

This is mostly because of legacy issues.

They have a supplier that has been doing analog knobs for them for half a century, and they're kind of obliged to still use their knobs.

Also the designers are very much in the "everything has to have a button" -mindset, which is hard to get out of.

> Also the designers are very much in the "everything has to have a button" -mindset, which is hard to get out of.

Good!

Why not smart assistant integration?

Me (driving): Alexa/Siri set temperature to 70 degrees

Alexa/Siri: temperature set to 70 degrees

I would love this, already do it with my smart thermostat + Alexa skill integration.

I wouldn't mind having the option of a car's voice assistant (exclusive for the car, where I have a signed contract with the manufacturer stating that what happens in the car stays in the car and doesn't get sold for ads). But I'd still very much prefer to have a dedicated physical button option for any basic function that a driver might use while driving. Not a button that navigates through a menu but something where I can use muscle memory and have the guarantee that it does what I expected without taking my eyes off the road for a second.

So for example the volume up button should always be a volume up button. They shouldn't change function because in some other menu I picked "temperature" instead of "volume".

I bought an Amazon Alexa Auto so that I can control Spotify via voice: https://youtu.be/WBUKw4801HE

But I can do that now using the voice commands on the v10 update. I know there's a guy who tinkers with the firmware code and found that the voice commands for temp and other settings are dormant on a previous update.

https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1112574502678994944

'Alexa, set the temprature to seventy degrees' (system hears 'sevde-gree' due to road noise)

"Okay Sizzle, switching to Centigrade temperature scale"

'No! Alexa, switch to Fahrenheit' (system hears 'far ride')

"Okay Sizzle, going into long-range mode" turns off AC, music, etc

Voice controls in a car sounds good in theory but horrible in practice. I remember someone showing me one of the older pre smart assistant systems, him having to shout 'call X' 3 times and in the end it called the work instead of personal number

Frankly, if you're willing to put a bug in your own car to get voice integration that's only semi-functional when you're connected to the internet, your value system is very different from mine. We can argue objective pros and cons but the real truth is we want very different things, and we're not likely to find much common ground.

Tesla is going the right way, the car is a driving smartphone and entertainment system. I can't see the next generation using anything else.

When you grow old and don't understand the future technology... Guess the future is now