Okay, but you're only looking at the (very minor) difference in user experience, without looking at all you're giving up. How easy is it to repair your A/C? If you can't or don't want to repair it yourself, can you hire someone other than Tesla to do it? Is not having to turn a knob worth having your car collect a bunch of personal data on you?

In accordance with Parkinson's Law of Triviality[1], the only discussion my post has generated has been about the experience of touch screens versus knobs, without talking about the more complicated repairability and security issues. My impression of Tesla is that they understand Parkinson's Law very well, and are working hard to get the color of the metaphorical bike shed just right. That's not to say that they're getting the nuclear reactor completely wrong, it's just to say that everyone's talking about the bike shed when the nuclear reactor is way more important.

At the end of the day, what I said was ultimately my preference, and your preference is your preference, and there aren't an objective arguments we can make that will change each other's subjective preferences. I'm just frustrated that the direction the industry seems to be going will cater to what you want, and not to what I want.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality

Another user mentioned the Bollinger brand, they are making their EV's completely analog -- even more analog than ICE cars, their philosophy may be right up your alley. Unfortunately it doesn't sound like they're going for mass market (yet).

You should also look into how the A/C system works on the model 3, it's fascinating how simple it really is. It literally uses air to push the air up and down. This reduces the complexity with less moving parts. It's a very genius system IMO. Tech Forum YouTube channel made a video of it disassembled so you can see how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvNkcPcrBxw

> Another user mentioned the Bollinger brand, they are making their EV's completely analog -- even more analog than ICE cars, their philosophy may be right up your alley. Unfortunately it doesn't sound like they're going for mass market (yet).

Yeah, I saw that other comment and if the reality is even close to the marketing materials, those are gonna be awesome vehicles. I probably wouldn't get one new unless the price is very low (the benefits of buying new aren't worth the loss in value that happens when you drive a new car off the lot, IMO). So by the time they start hitting the used market I expect the reality will be clearer.

> You should also look into how the A/C system works on the model 3, it's fascinating how simple it really is. It literally uses air to push the air up and down. This reduces the complexity with less moving parts. It's a very genius system IMO.

I dunno, it's simpler in that there are fewer moving parts, but from the video it seems like part of how that was achieved was by using existing plastic molding and whatnot to direct the air, which makes it harder to replace i.e. one duct in isolation--it's not very modular. And having simpler moving parts is a small decrease in complexity compared to the increased complexity of digital controls. Of course it's hard to tell from the video, so that impression has to be taken with a grain of salt.

i have an analog vehicle, and the car doesn't need to have to remember my settings because they are physically in the same location.

And what if you share your car with someone who prefers different settings?

Then they change the settings, and if they're a considerate human being, they change them back. If they're not, then you get to grumble a bit, change them back yourself, and consider not sharing your car with that person again. I don't think the world has lost anything substantial here.

Just realized I might be a grumpy old man.

Maybe you always share your car with a partner that's 25 centimeters shorter than you, requiring different settings for seat & steering weel position, and also has a different body composition that makes them want different climate control settings.

It shouldn't be so controversial to claim that automatic adjustment of settings is a net UX win this this common scenario.

Since at least 1987, Cadillac is offering this with simple hardware push buttons. We have that in a VW "group" car and turning the dial in the center console allow to adjust as needed the temperature + airflow in less than 1 second.

This problem was solved over a decade ago with memorized seating positions tied to the key fob. It wouldn’t have been too much of a stretch (pun not intended!) to memorize and set the temperature alongside the other settings using the existing system.

That's literally what the tesla does. You tie a profile to a key, card, or phone.

Right - I meant that it can also be accomplished with an old-school analog system, too. It doesn't require a tablet-based system like Tesla's as a baseline.

There's no tablet involved after the initial setup you do when you buy the car. As soon as I unlock the car, everything moves into place.

And for the set up, it is analog. There's 2 trackball-like things you jigger around to move your seat, mirrors, and steering column.

Is the climate control analog, too? That's really what I'm referring to.

The climate control is tied to your key fob too so it changes based on who unlocks it. It even stores the direct of the vents for people who like air in their face vs over their head or below their feet.

Sure, but this doesn't matter much to me. You're objectively right that this fits someone's wants, but it doesn't fit my wants.

I have yet to come across a problem on an old Jeep Cherokee or Toyota Tacoma that I couldn't figure out how to fix with a little help from the internet, and I'm by no means a car expert. Sometimes the parts cost or size has shut me down, but not the complexity. An electric motor is far simpler than a gasoline engine, so it should be easier to work on, not harder. Can you fix your Tesla's A/C if it breaks? Can most mechanics fix your Tesla's A/C if it breaks?

We're arguing different things. I was responding to a criticism that implied the "remember your settings" feature has no value when compared to a vehicle where all settings are set with physical buttons.

The point you're arguing boils down to a difference of preferences and philosophy, which is of course perfectly fine. Not everyone has the same preferences.

> And what if you share your car with someone who prefers different settings?

There have been cars that change various settings depending on the key fob used ("hers and his"):

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSoJPgFSDOE

Before fobs, where you actually put the key in the ignition hols, there were cars with "memory buttons".

Spending 5 seconds changing the 3 settings that matter occasionally isn't a problem I care about.

Not being able to fix my own car because you've used space age technology to solve turning a dial IS a problem I care about.

Like in any modern analog car, the knobs are free spinning and therefore remember their settings. It’s a tactile version of tapping a screen that is a better UX IMHO. When my significant other uses my car, they hit #2 on the preset settings and everything slides and turns into place. This is a well solved problem and has been for many years. Note: I am a former P85D Model S owner.

Free spinning knobs are not analog, but digital encoders.

“relating to or using signals or information represented by a continuously variable physical quantity such as spatial position, voltage, etc.” - from our friends at Oxford.

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/analog

Similar to the changing the seat or steering wheel position, except easier to dial it back.

Having to fiddle with a touch screen to manage windshield wipers is unnecessary.

The wipers wipe automatically when the camera detects rain on the windshield. If you want to do a window clean you just push the button on the end of the blinker handle on the left of the steering wheel. It's one of the few physical buttons of the 3.

How well does the auto wipe behave on Tesla’s? I’ve owned multiple cars with the feature over the last 10 years - the only one which has ever got it close was a Lexus (quite some time ago). The rest I’ve had and still need to constantly police.

It's a solved problem on newer cars.

What I want next is an automatic sunscreen that slides down based on sensing the angle of the sunlight. I think there is also technology to dynamically darken glass that could be used. I hereby grant a free perpetual license to auto manufacturers to use this idea. :)

> I think there is also technology to dynamically darken glass that could be used.

Looked into it previously. Even if you got it to work, it likely would not be street legal, as there are pretty strict regulations on what part of the windshield can or cannot be tinted.

I haven't had to manually turn on the wipers, but I have had to turn them off on one or two occasions when the computer _thought_ it was raining for some reason.

Works OK on my 2016 Seat Alhambra. There's a little control that lets you adjust frequency/sensitivity on the wiper stalk.

It's behaved very well for me. There was only one instance when I was in a drive thru that it wiped the window even though it was dry, not sure if it was because the angle of the sunlight hitting some dirt or something.

I have a fairly new car, one of VW's brands, and at best I twiddle with the sensitivity a bit from time to time, but that's mostly unnecessary.

I don't know about other cars, but on my 2014 Passat it works flawlessly. I don't remember ever having to manually touch it.

2012 Passat and two Priuses (2nd and 3rd gen), all worked 95% of the time.

So 3 minutes of every hour of rain were left unwiped? Sounds dangerous. Or was that "internet statistics"?

Now that's just unlucky for parent :)

The great thing about the touch screen is not the UI experience, but the flexibility when it comes to updates that also include new features. When you go the hardware controller route on a product that is still heavily being interrated on, you quickly run out of intuitive ways to clearly label and/or manipulate things or an exzessive number of buttons with integrated screens (to indicate their function in any given context), neither of which is great UX wise and also pretty expensive.

>The great thing about the touch screen is ... the flexibility when it comes to updates that also include new features

That's the main problem. Change is good only if it's optional, by choice. Forced redesign only makes designers happy, because they can now stop looking at that old version that they released some years ago and want to sunset it.

If you look at the 2012 Tesla dashboard, you'll see that it's influenced by really aged design patterns, it's good that they iterate on the UI as long as it's kept in check and doesn't become a Windows 7 to Windows 8 fiasco.

How often do you find yourself wanting to tweak the rate?

Rate is set automatically based on the amount of rain. The wiper clears the windshield for the cameras for autopilot so it keeps the view clear. I haven't had the urge to adjust the rate yet.

My car has that, but I tend to manually adjust it regardless as I find it's often a bit to slow or a tad too fast. Maybe I'm just picky. Or maybe your car's algorithm is better :-).

They also automatically turn on in the car wash.

v10 added car wash mode, maybe this is the reason

Tesla owners are known to be willing put up with things other car owners aren't. I don't want to fool around with a touchscreen in traffic.

You can use the steering wheel and scroll up or down and you changed the temperature. No fooling around with touchscreen in traffic. It’s way better than any analog system I’ve used across Jeep’s and Audi’s.

You can control temperature, fan speed, brightness, and more all from the steering wheel.

Yes: https://youtu.be/kLIBYlgsHis?t=560

That video tutorial is now outdated since there has been many UI improvements, but the steps should still be the same.

Are you not highlighting another problem.

Buttons are always in the same place, I know where they are, I don't have to go hunting for the thing that used to be there, but is now in a sub sub menu, meanwhile you aren't looking where you're going.

Geez people. It's NOT a submenu.. You just move the scroll-wheel up and down or push it to turn it on/off. It's that simple. It's also the default behavior.

Here: https://youtu.be/_eyxkzaNZX0

Do you get it now? Taking your hands off the steering wheel involves more steps compared to this.

> Taking your hands off the steering wheel involves...

Taking your hands off the steering wheel has never been a problem. Taking your eyes off the road is.

That being said, if you want to set a certain temperature with analog controls, you still need to look at the number (showing the degrees). Still, in other cars you can see that number all the time, you don't have to go into some menu. There is a dedicated physical button for that one function.

I avoid looking at the number by turning the dial all the way down (so I know where it is) and then up to where I want it.

The video you linked contains menus and submenus.

Yes for other controls. But the DEFAULT scroll functions controls the A/C you can see that its the top item when pressing the menu NOT scrollwheel

I made that video because this keeps coming up, I know how it works...

Maybe for that one example. In general a changing UI is not a good thing whilst trying to concentrate on other things. It isn't about hands on wheel, its about mental load, a hardware button is muscle memory, I don't have to look at it, I don't have think about it.

Ahhh backpedaling now are we? The topic was about A/C control... Hence that's the specific video proof I provided.

> It isn't about hands on wheel, its about mental load, a hardware button is muscle memory, I don't have to look at it, I don't have think about it. reply

I don't have to look to use the scroll wheel controls too. Did you not see on the video that they are physical buttons? What's your point exactly?

Why am I backpedalling? The conversation is allowed to evolve, you're the one who raised the point about the changing UI.

"I don't have to look to use the scroll wheel controls too"

No you have to look at the screen, while you're trying to find the thing that was right there before the update.

> No you have to look at the screen, while you're trying to find the thing that was right there before the update.

Anecdotally speaking no... The item order have NOT changed from updates since 2012. I own the car and I am not speculating here. The UI change I mentioned was mainly aesthetic, similar to the iOS 6 to 7 color/look change.

I even said it should be the same even with the updates on my original post?

> The conversation is allowed to evolve

Sure, whine on

Give me physical buttons and knobs any day. I'm afraid with the direction that things are going, that may become more and more difficult, and go the way of crank windows and manual transmissions, however.

Oh well. The way that sticker prices keep going up on new pickup trucks, frankensteining old ones together and rebuilding the engines and transmissions is looking like more and more of a viable and cost-effective option.

Get yourself a horse and buggy. Time tested approach. Just watch out for the manure.

Fortunately, one by one, car manufacturers are starting to get over the entire touchscreen fad, for example Mazda: https://thenewswheel.com/mazda-eliminates-touch-screens/

I'm more than slightly annoyed that it starts with "choose menu"!!!

The demo person is constantly looking at his screen instead of in front of him.

For example, here is Audi's A/C controls in all of their new vehicles:

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1iETfhnSPY1JjSZPcq6xIwpXaw/ZWE...

You not only have to take a hand off the steering wheel, but also look to see which lever you want/need to press. If I'm changing the temperature I know where the dial is, but I also have to look to see what I'm setting it to.

I'm surprised people here think analog controls are a bulletproof solution to the same problems you're criticizing Tesla for. I have a hunch that if there were YouTube videos watching people change climate control settings in their car they'd not only be required to take hand off the wheel but also look down and away for a small period of time. Tesla's isn't perfect but you get to keep both hands on the steering wheel and head looking straight, but down ever so slightly.

We're criticizing bad UI design and the attitude that digital touch interface is automatically without fault and order of magnitudes superior to whatever was established in the last hundred years.

You can make bad UI with or without buttons.

Remember VCR clock controls?

I don't know if anyone has said digital touch is superior, I don't think it is. It's just a different way of solving the same problem. Can it be updated in the future unlike analog? Yep. Can you feel it with your hands like you can with analog? Nope.

I feel like I see more people saying first that digital is terrible and it should be analog, that they'll never get a car that has digital. The reasons they list are still true for analog though.

It doesn't matter if they "say" it. They act like they do and it speaks just as much.

Everywhere I look (modulo self bias) I find people that are in awe of the digital touch interface. In contrast I don't find people in awe of analog buttons. They just use them and complain when they don't work for whatever reason. Digital interface touch "buttons" don't work on cars. We complain. It's simple.

I also want to complain how Lamborginis have no manual transmission. Don't wanna drive something that boring.