I'm not sure this is always the case. I feel like many of my women friends would prefer to meet someone offline but they do not always get many inbounds so they use online dating. I feel like there's a clear edge for men who ask women out in person because less people are doing so.
Further to this, apps like Tinder are good at showing off looks but not necessarily status. This works great for good looking women but not men who need to convey gravitas/worth in order to attract women. This is based on the theory that men are 'success' objects. I think this is something that is more easily done offline.
In effect, you ask them. However, this is not done in the literalist HN style - that is, you do not say "Hi, may I please hit on you?" or any other such set of words.
Nonetheless, one asks, and some will say yes, and some will say no; some will know they're answering, some won't even notice, and sometimes the asker doesn't even notice that they're asking.
To a number of people, this sounds crazy. As crazy as the idea that some authors cannot be read literally to get the meaning of their words. There are languages encoded within language and this is one such. If one happens not to speak this language, I guess it's dating apps or nothing :/
There is so many aspects to this, it's impossible to reasonably discuss it on an online forum. My perspective is living in a major western city that has a lot of culturally middle eastern people living here. The culture is very forward compared to western white culture. Women I know complain about it all the time. A woman living in an area without this culture may wish more men would hit on her.
Do you mind sharing more? I thought middle Eastern cultures were generally more traditional and conservative about dating and the like, so this sounds unusual.
So what?
Do people really rule out meeting a partner and having a family because of a fear of maybe inconveniencing someone?
There are plenty of social events that are appropriate for this sort of interaction. Running errands or just trying to go about your day is not one of those IMO, and if dozens of people accosted you per day you’d probably feel the same way.
Well that sounds too heavy and aggressive. If a lady is actually stopped by strangers while out, I'm not surprised she's sick of it.
There is so many aspects to this, it's impossible to reasonably discuss it on an online forum.
That is very true. This particular aspect of human interaction and communication, relying so much as it does on things other than the pure literal interpretation of words, is perhaps uniquely unsuitable for discussion on a text only forum where the words are all we have, and doubly so here on HN where the preponderance of people who joyfully embrace literal interpretation is so high!
But that is the whole point, if a person gets greeted a lot by strangers when they are out it gets annoying quick. So it is common courtesy to not greet strangers in typical every-day errand places like grocery stores. It might be different where you live, but that is how it works where I live.
If that goes well, ask.
All single men reading this, learn to flirt. Give them a look. Ask with your eyes first.
If they look back, smile, introduce yourself.
This isn't an issue of me being socially incompetent, it's about me trying to be a decent human and not annoy women who are constantly being annoyed. Likewise, I don't want to hit on women in a workplace setting because I feel that people should be able to come to work without being made to feel uncomfortable. Some women may like it but some will feel uncomfortable and it's the latter group I'm being respectful towards.
My policies mean I probably sleep with fewer women than I could but dating in 2019 is already stupidly easy.
> men made up nearly three-fourths (73%) of Europe’s asylum seekers in 2015.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2016/08/02/number-of-refu...
You carefully calibrate your approach while she sleeps around with much better looking men who don't need to.
It's pretty sad.
Dating apps may well be more efficient than in-person flirting, I'm just claiming that the in-person flirting method is not impossible.
It’s perfectly alright to meet people on dating apps, especially if you don’t have much experience dating. At the end of the day all dating advice is spurious IMO, you have to experience it in order to truly understand it.
Of course you can't read minds, that's why you use things like language.
Of course the risk is high. You will get rejected a lot. So what if you bother them a bit? The chance you bother them a bit might be high, but the impact is low. It's not like pascal's wager where the risk of being wrong is eternal damnation. The impact of being bothered is basically nil.
How do you think people met before, in the decades between the industrial revolution and the internet?
This step here is already too forward, people don't say hi to strangers. At least where I live it would be totally obvious that you were flirting or just generally creepy if you did this.
> Believe me, I used to be terrible socially (like, seriously) and I learned a lot since.
Clearly not! Your obliviousness in this very conversation, let alone how tone deaf you must sound to the many people you inevitably offend through an antiquated conversational tactic you mistakenly think remains applicable, are strong signals to the contrary.
By all means, you live in your fantasy world, but people who are able to communicate effectively with people of the opposite sex do so daily while managing not to get arrested for it.
Your language, with its host of technical sounding terms to hide behind, and your narrow focus, makes it clear that you are the literalist I mentioned in another comment. Your attitude and beliefs are crippling your ability to communicate, even as you tell yourself that you're an excellent communicator, treating the English language as if it were some kind of logical set and treating communication as if it were some kind of well-defined, internally consistent theorem. Hard truths that I wouldn't have said to you in person, but here I'm a line of text on a screen and so are you. Good luck.
I do not buy into incel or MRA language whatsoever, and feel those groups have utterly no point or legs to stand on. I do not at all think that most women are “itching” to make harassment claims as you say, not at all.
Being annoying to the people you approach for dating is not the same thing as harassing them. I’m talking about how the troglodyte approach of assuming you know how to read body language and then hitting on someone at the grocery store leads to bothering people (not harassing them) and is something society clearly doesn’t want, given the dramatic adoption of online dating.
What a self-absorbed assumption to think, “I have good communication skills, therefore I can infer this person’s demeanor means they are receptive to a casual advance.”
People would rather buy groceries or drop off the laundry without having their general friendly demeanor taken as a signal they want to be hit on. Gee, what a shock.
Frankly you sound like a self-righteous kook asserting this dreamed up half Myers-Briggs half horoscope caricature you’re insulting me with based on ~ 4 paragraphs of text data sample. What incredible lack of self-awareness that must take.
It's literally how it's done. Tbh if she's into you it doesn't really matter what you say.
Let me put this into an if else statement for you knuckleheads to understand:
print("Wow this is a really long line!")
if response == "Girl turns toward you, looks excited and tries to continue conversation":
keep talking and see where it goes
else if == "Girl continues the conversation but it's difficult to see if she's interested":
keep talking and see where it goes
else if == "Girl doesn't respond or responds without looking at you, or looks away from you":
stop talking, she's not interestedNobody does that, at least where I live. So just that one line would be seen as too forward and flirty and annoying. And it is right, I would be very uncomfortable if I knew that every time I visited the grocery store some stranger would likely try to strike up a conversation with me.
If no reply, move on. If they answer sheepishly, don’t be annoying. If they react with enthusiasm...
“I love spicy”. Escalate.
@wendyshu - I feel ya trying to explain nuanced things to a crowd who take things very, literally, but good job.
Sorry, bored on a flight.
Easier isn't the right metric. It's far less selfishly obnoxious to the world to not actively harass random people just in case one of them might be ok with it.
If my starting base is "women just don’t want people they’re not attracted to hitting on them in public", then it's would mean that I start from a weak position. I feel like that mentally basically says "I am not attractive and women do not want to speak to me". People can sense this and find it unattractive.
Maybe we need a guideline on which places it is okay to hit on women? Groceries? Tech conferences? Cafe? Yoga classes?
I remember I read complaints from women on Twitter who were hit on by guys in tech conferences. They felt they were being devalued there. Even a senior personality (a man) in tech world had to intervene, "Hey, it is not okay to hit on women in tech conferences."
On the other side, my female friend told me that she is okay if guys hit on her in yoga classes.
So I don't know the answer to this perplexing question. Should we categorize places/events into don't-hit-on-women / okay-hit-on-women?
If the guy is ugly then he's a creep.
While I've some other female friends much younger, they've acknowledged they've rediculed or even got restraining order against few guys who looked bad and their approach came across as hostile based on their looks not behaviour. They often tell me that guys chasing money and career are pretty boring to them and they want more adventurous guys who doesn't care much about money. In short, what I've understood they want very good looking men.
Tho I am from East Asia but I look middle eastern and girls told me I look pretty evil and terrorist. And most girls I been with only liked blonde with blue eye dude with long hair. And money didn't even make it easy for me to attract good girls who want long term relationship.
I did attract the ones who I didn't want to attract and it caused me a lot of problem in life but nevermind, I've moved on and now I've a stable relationship.
#include "env.hpp"
#define FLIRTING "not fun"
#if __has_feature(flirting)
#error Invalid built-in environment
#endif
int main()
{
const char insult[] = "up your game";
Person p;
if (has_gamed(p) && FLIRTING) {
p.set_worst();
throw insult;
}
}I agree, which is why I dislike dating apps. It seems like the dominant practice is for men to "right swipe" or message every woman (regardless of whether they are actually attracted to them or not) then decide whether they're actually interested once they get a match/response.
This results in women getting lots of generic messages from guys who are not actually interested in them. It's really a crappy experience for both genders. However, it seems to be the local optima that modern dating apps converge on.
There are a great number of rotten people who "cast a wide net". When there's a large number of nets being cast, you start to drown in the sea unable to spot the difference between someone genuinely interested in a relationship and someone who's just sexually harassing you.
Because the definition of "hitting on" varies so widely. It can vary from a compliment to their clothing to cat calling, depend on who you ask.
> What's wrong with taking a risk and setting up two friends?
Because as you admit, it's a risk. It can create an incredibly awkward situation if you're in the middle if they split up.
> Why do we have to segment all life into easy-to-classify pockets of time: 'work', 'dating', 'getting groceries'?
I learned the hard way to not mix work and dating. And when I'm running errands, I just want to get them done and go back home. I'm not interested in wasting time talking to people I don't know.
> Does this not remove some element of spontaneity and joie-de-vivre that makes life thrilling and make one feel human (and not a finite state machine)?
I think you're just more extroverted than I (and probably a lot of others on HN) am.
Regardless of the intent of the pursuer, it (sometimes) makes people uncomfortable. I believe that people deserve to be able to grocery shop without having to worry about letting someone down easy or dealing with someone who gets aggressive when rejected.
Delivery is so fast and ubiquitous that it makes me wonder if the only people actually going to the grocery store are people looking for social interaction.
Maybe we should have designated, opt-in, "social spaces" where human<->human interaction isn't considered a breach of norms? Or the other way, there could be designated areas where interacting with strangers is forbidden for your convenience.
When we finally get AR, I wouldn't be surprised if you could put yourself in "busy mode" IRL, so other AR-enabled people would know to leave you alone.
Don't we already have such spaces, called "nightclubs"?
Online dating is definitely a winner take all environment. I certainly have not had much success.
It's also quite superficial to reduce everything down to a two dimensional picture.
People want to go about their day and not be hit and have to reject people face to face. It's a difficult interaction human interaction to have.
People DO want to go about their day and be hit on by the right person. When I was single, I loved being hit on by someone who I was into. It was fun. And I hated it when I had to let someone know I wasn't interested, it was terrible.
One of the issues that online dating solves is it makes the rejection process easier and less confrontational for the person being approached.
One example, for every person that will speak for a woman that clearly had her headphones on and didnt want to talk, there are just as many women that arent trying to telepathically signal to leave them alone and are open to the interruption
Everyone operating in absolutes are at a disadvantage
There will always be people better at reading this, there will always be people attractive enough to get a pass on actions that the internet says are always bad, there will always be people part of a hookup that “didnt count” which is never considered when people complain about how they get hit on
People are gatekeeping to reduce unwanted attention from unattractive people
It takes some strong powers of denial to suggest that looking at pixels on a screen can even compare. Yours is just the modern, considerate iteration of being scared to approach women.