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Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by lonelappde on Thursday August 22, 2019 @07:53PM (#20773459)
Sold for $10B (3 years ago). 40% of that is $4B, of Ellison's $65B financial networth.

The amount Ellison profited from scheming (the premium over actual value, discounted by the fact that Ellison owns much of money being spent on the purchase) seems...not big enough to matter? But his greed is unbridled?

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by rosybox on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:00PM (#20773498)
I don't really understand when you already have billions of dollars why having more billions of dollars even matters anymore. How is more billions going to change your standard of living? You can buy two islands instead of just one? When you have so much money, how is getting more money a motivation?
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by hannasanarion on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:31PM (#20774326)
Larry Ellison is a particularly greedy bastard. You could make a James Bond movie with him as the villain and nobody would notice.

He owns an island in Hawaii where the locals work for him as de facto serfs.

He has donated to two charities in his life: one to Stanford in exchange for not admitting fault in an options backdating scandal, and one to set up a charitable foundation to research ways to extend his own life.

The mission statements and internal marching orders at Oracle and his various other companies is "make lots of money for Larry". Nothing else matters, they will screw the users, screw the customers, screw the product, screw the employees, screw the open source community, screw the legal system, as long as there's revenue for Larry, the bosses are happy bacause that's all that the company exists for.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by bscphil on Friday August 23, 2019 @01:10AM (#20774669)
Or, as the classic Bryan Cantrill line goes, "Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphizing Larry Ellison." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by tjpnz on Friday August 23, 2019 @12:10AM (#20774453)
For a second I thought you were describing Gavin Belson from Silicon Valley - turns out the character is based on Ellison.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by throwaway2048 on Friday August 23, 2019 @12:52AM (#20774607)
The movie version of Tony stark/Iron Man is pretty much explicitly based on Larry Ellison because they wanted to make a super hero out of one of the least likeable people possible.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by goatinaboat on Friday August 23, 2019 @01:50AM (#20774845)
Hence the saying One Rich Asshole Called Larry Ellison
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by a_imho on Friday August 23, 2019 @03:23AM (#20775224)
What else should for profit companies exist for?
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by hannasanarion on Friday August 23, 2019 @11:06AM (#20778372)
Most companies at least pretend to have a mission aside from making money.

If you go to a major bank and ask "why do you exist", they'll give you a whole spiel about how they help people achieve fiscal stability, they help new businesses get established and bring new products to market, they help people grow their retirement funds, providing services so that the world can be a better place, yada yada yada.

Google will tell you "We help people find information, and we help businesses find an audience for their products, and we make pocket-size computing cheap and available for everyone all over the world, and we hope that the sum of these activities will make the world a better place"

If you go to Oracle and say "why do you exist" they'll simply say "we make money". That's it. They don't have a mission, they're not trying to make the world a better place, they just want to make money.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by t-writescode on Friday August 23, 2019 @03:34AM (#20775273)
For profit companies should exist for whatever they want to exist for, as long as they can stay alive.

Public companies, on the other hand, apparently have a legal obligation to make as much money as possible, a feature I find despicable.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by chalst on Friday August 23, 2019 @08:25AM (#20776770)
The idea that company directors have a fiduciary duty to maximise shareholder value is mostly a myth: it is one of those ideas that many economists like that seem to simplify things but actually can't be made to work. James Kwak has a nice article (Medium, sorry) on this

https://medium.com/bull-market/there-is-no-effective-fiducia...

> The specific fiduciary duties of corporate directors...are common law: legal principles that have been established by courts in the process of adjudicating cases over the years. As it turns out, in Delaware, which is the state that matters—not only because most large corporations are incorporated there, but because courts in other states tend to look to Delaware law when dealing with new issues of corporate law—there are exactly two fiduciary duties: the duty of loyalty and the duty of care.

> They duty of care is basically the duty to pay attention to your job: in essence, to make decisions on the basis of reasonably adequate information. There is an academic controversy—fueled by careless uses of language by the courts—about whether the standard of conduct is negligence or gross negligence. But the point here is that the duty of care isn’t a duty to do any particular thing, such as maximize profits.

> The duty of loyalty is marginally more complicated. This duty (like the duty of care) existed in agency law—the law governing the relationship between agents, such as employees, and principals, such as companies—before corporations became widespread in the nineteenth century. There, the duty of loyalty essentially meant that you couldn’t use your position as an agent to make a personal profit—by stealing directly from the principal, via a transaction with the principal, or, in the famous case of Reading v. Regem, by using your British Army uniform to help smugglers during your off hours.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by Xixi on Friday August 23, 2019 @09:59AM (#20777668)
For profit companies (including public companies) can be established to pursue any lawful purpose. They are absolutely not required to make as much money as possible.

"While it is certainly true that a central objective of for-profit corporations is to make money, modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the expense of everything else, and many do not do so. For-profit corporations, with ownership approval, support a wide variety of charitable causes, and it is not at all uncommon for such corporations to further humanitarian and other altruistic objectives. Many examples come readily to mind. So long as its owners agree, a for-profit corporation may take costly pollution-control and energy-conservation measures that go beyond what the law requires."

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/13-354#OPINION...

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by vonmoltke on Friday August 23, 2019 @09:12AM (#20777147)
> Public companies, on the other hand, apparently have a legal obligation to make as much money as possible, a feature I find despicable.

No, they don't. Please stop spreading this myth.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by a_imho on Friday August 23, 2019 @03:41AM (#20775305)
Right. Is it more despicable if some are upfront about it? Do we need to entertain the idea companies are our friends?
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by andrewflnr on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:20PM (#20773607)
At that point, as far as I can tell, it's just about getting a higher score. It might feel like something more meaningful, even meaningfully greedy or power-hungry, but I think that underneath all the rationalizations it's just the thrill of making that number get bigger.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by cosmodisk on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:33PM (#20773666)
This is what a lot of people misunderstand. Very few,if any at all, people past $1B mark care about money per se. By then they would have bought the houses,the women/men, the cars,boats and whatever else they want. So all those,kind of targets, are gone.The only reason they keep doing it is because money making ( or whatever brings that money) drives them.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by qaq on Thursday August 22, 2019 @09:17PM (#20773827)
"whatever else they want" well unless they want to collect art :) you could blow 1B on a few paintings
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by hkmurakami on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:36PM (#20774125)
Or islands.

Which he has purchased.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by masonic on Friday August 23, 2019 @01:24AM (#20774728)
Or Sports franchises.

He cheaped out on buying the Warriors by, what, $10 million? The franchise has appreciated since by, what, $2 billion?

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by johannes1234321 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @09:54PM (#20773980)
Or the competition on the Forbes list of the richest people.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by aasasd on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:30PM (#20773658)
One curious motivation for amassing money is that your offsprings can spend it.

E.g. Megan Ellison, owner and CEO of Annapurna Pictures, a film producer and executive producer (aka a moneybag) on 35 titles since 2010, including for major directors like Coens, Linklater, Paul Thomas Anderson, Wong Kar-wai, Spike Jonze.

Also Annapurna Interactive's game Gorogoa looks pretty interesting, at least visually—haven't tried it yet.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by abvr on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:40PM (#20774348)
Wow, didn't know that. And gotta agree, at least they've got some great films on that list.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by aasasd on Friday August 23, 2019 @12:54AM (#20774620)
I've gotten curious about the company when started seeing the same logo in films of Coens, Linklater and Jonze. The memorable name also helps.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by MadWombat on Friday August 23, 2019 @11:16AM (#20778487)
I played the game. It is very good. A bit short, but good.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by codazoda on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:57PM (#20773756)
Wut?
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by jjeaff on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:47PM (#20774161)
Larry Ellison's daughter is a big spender.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by twblalock on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:28PM (#20773651)
People with that attitude would never bust their butts to get billions in the first place. Most of the people who have earned that kind of money are not the kind of people who would stop trying to earn even more.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by chasontherobot on Thursday August 22, 2019 @09:35PM (#20773910)
Its true, addiction is a troubling disease
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by dredmorbius on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:16PM (#20773587)
Wealth at that level isn't cardinal, it's ordinal.

"Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power."

-- Adam Smith

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by felipemnoa on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:05PM (#20773525)
It is about winning. The money is just a way of keeping score.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by dagw on Friday August 23, 2019 @07:19AM (#20776330)
When you have so much money, how is getting more money a motivation?

Because the more you have the higher up the scoreboard you move. If you're the 17th richest person in the world, moving into the top 10 is probably a massive motivator, and once you're the 7th richest I bet you lie awake at night scheming how to get into the top 5.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by danans on Thursday August 22, 2019 @09:10PM (#20773798)
> When you have so much money, how is getting more money a motivation?

Power over even more other people, for better or for worse.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by wstrange on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:03PM (#20773514)
Being richer than Bezos or Buffet
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by jjeaff on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:48PM (#20774165)
He must realize that ain't happening. He's squeezing the last bit out of Oracle before it gets crushed by it's incumbents.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by PopeDotNinja on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:29PM (#20774313)
The drive many have to acquire billions in assets doesn't go away after they acquire billions of dollars.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by MadWombat on Friday August 23, 2019 @11:13AM (#20778463)
Because being motivated to make money is what made you rich in the first place? I write code for a living. If tomorrow I wake up independently wealthy, I might quit my job, but I will not stop writing code.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by jchw on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:06PM (#20773535)
Speaking purely in terms of money, I think $4B is still a lot to someone who has a net worth of $65B. The litmus test for me is whether you’d notice if you lost that much. I think you would.

Was it worth it? Maybe not. Still, it’s a substantial amount.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by johannes1234321 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @09:57PM (#20773987)
How would you notice? There's nothing you can buy with 65B you can't by with 60B or even 50B. Only the distance to Buffet and others is different.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by jchw on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:25PM (#20774080)
You would notice by looking at your account balance.

When I worked as a part time cashier in the midwest, I could notice $5 missing from my account. In fact I did notice an errant $7 charge. I didn’t have to be particularly vigilant, just, there wasn’t that much money flowing through my account.

As an engineer in the Bay Area, I could miss a $100 transaction. Not saying I would necessarily, but looking at month to month finances, nothing would really look too out of the ordinary. It could fade into the noise.

Of course this has mostly to do with the amount of money flowing through accounts, but I am pretty sure that if 4 billion dollars disappeared, it would be promptly noticed. That’s still a huge net change, even if month to month finances scaled up linearly with account balance - and I don’t think they do.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by johannes1234321 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:42PM (#20774143)
Well that doesn't match how wealth on the level we are talking about works.

I guess that lots of Larry Ellison's wealth is in stocks, which are fluctuating in worth on a constant basis.

Another part of his wealth is real estate, like his Hawaiian island or land for his Japanase-style home in the Bay Area. There the value is only an estimate.

Also I assume most of the day to day handling is in the hands of an accountant and there's constant in and out of sums for paying his personal staff, buying supplies, paying maintenence of his Mig Jet or whatever goes on there.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by jchw on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:54PM (#20774193)
4 billion dollars of 65 billion dollars is around ~6%. Now I'm not a stock guru but I'm betting for a fairly diversified portfolio a change of 6% is actually pretty big, and is something that is likely to happen over a fairly long period of time. As an arbitrary pick, it looks like the S&P 500 has moved +4.59% in the past 6 months.

>Also I assume most of the day to day handling is in the hands of an accountant and there's constant in and out of sums for paying his personal staff, buying supplies, paying maintenence of his Mig Jet or whatever goes on there.

I know nothing about Larry Ellison or this case, but somehow I doubt someone with $65B net worth is not paying attention to their account balances or their investment positions at all. You hire an accountant to take care of the things you don't want to or don't have time to do, but if you have that much money it is apparent that you care about how much money you have.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by johannes1234321 on Friday August 23, 2019 @11:43AM (#20778747)
It is true that such an acquisition or loss of fortune would be noticed. But context of the discussion is "how much did he overpay the acquisition to put money in his pocket" So question is "Is it a difference he notices, if Oracle spent less on the acquisition?" - So if Oracle paid not 9.3, but 5B for PeopleSoft Larry got not 4, but a bit less of 2B for the deal for his account. At the same time the value of his Oracle stocks would be different (probably higher) thus the notable effect of the deal is small for Larry (but potentially bad for that sueing pension fund)
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by ineedasername on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:09PM (#20774036)
There's no much difference in lifestyle between making $100,000 a year and $110,000, but I'd sure know the difference if I lost $10,000. Either way though, at that level it's not really about the money itself.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by wp381640 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:26PM (#20774306)
the $4B was in cash - the 65B is in Oracle stock. he can't divest the later without having an impact on it's value

it's telling that Ellison wouldn't take stock in his own company in the transaction but rather took cash at a valuation that was 10x revenue and Oracle's largest acquisition at the time

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by wp381640 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:15PM (#20774271)
Larry sunk a bunch of money and pride into Netsuite because he hated Marc and Salesforce so much after being booted from that company.

He was bailing himself out financially, in ego and also catching Oracle up in the entire cloud shift they missed and failed on with their own early shitty online products

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by kjs3 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:30PM (#20774320)
Fraud is relative? If I only steal below a certain ratio, I'm good? If I only fuck you below a certain percentage, I should walk?
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by vkou on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:04PM (#20773517)
You don't get to be Larry Ellison with $65B to your name by leaving money on the table.

There's a survivorship bias at play, here. People who don't have those kinds of priorities tend to not become stupid rich.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by ksherlock on Thursday August 22, 2019 @09:42PM (#20773939)
When Martha Stewart went to Jail over $45,673.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by kjs3 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:31PM (#20774325)
When Martha Stewart went to jail for lying to the Feds.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by mirimir on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:59PM (#20774417)
Yes, this is a key issue to keep in mind.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by raincom on Thursday August 22, 2019 @09:47PM (#20773958)
James Comey was the prosecutor of Martha Stewart case:)
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by joering2 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:57PM (#20773758)
Well it won’t be Ellison looking into dollar value but judge and lawyers. Besides this whole scheme could be filed under insider trading in some form. And Martha Steward went to jail for much smaller schennegans. Ellison could be in much more trouble than just hasing out a $ penalty and settling a lawsuit.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by abvr on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:51PM (#20774381)
> Besides this whole scheme could be filed under insider trading in some form.

Huh, how ironic would that be, as the company's primary compliance policies urge it's employees against insider trading and other such practices and warns them multiple times not only when they're inducted into it but several times throughout their employment.

Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by mhfs on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:14PM (#20773577)
Look from the other side as well. I doubt such transaction moves the needle enough in Oracle’s performance to mean anything to the pension fund’s investment. However, it’s almost an asset for the fund to be able to pursuit such lawsuit.
Re:Oracle directors give blessing to shareholder lawsuit aga... by mark-r on Thursday August 22, 2019 @09:11PM (#20773802)
Was that paid in cash or stock? If Ellison ended up with more voting shares it might have been about more than the money.