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Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by chiefalchemist on Saturday August 10, 2019 @08:44PM (#20665484)
> "What’s all but vanished is the correlation between how much companies borrow and how much they invest."

I think the better question is: Under what condition(s) would not investing be a wise and sustainable business decision.

The first answer that comes to mind is: a monopoly. If you dominate your market you have little fear of competition over taking you. You don't need to invest.

The second answer that comes to mind: being a member of a cartel; where competition is feigned for appearances. Again, the need to invest is minimal as normal market forces have been subverted.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by IllogicalLogic on Saturday August 10, 2019 @11:24PM (#20666022)
It seems C-level execs across industries believe buying back stock with profit/debt to unlock performance bonuses is a win-win.

This kind of stupidity is why I'm bearish on Apple. Companies should never prioritize financial engineering over R&D imo.

The company & shareholders will eat the disastrous consequences of this asinine thinking when the market next adjusts 30-60% and everyone realizes they were wasting money buying back stock at all time highs.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by coralreef on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:48AM (#20666294)
- Apple is spending more than ever on research and development.

- R&D account for 7.9% for its revenue this part quarter.

- Apple is now on pace to spend $16 billion in R&D in 2019 as it preps for life after iPhone dominance.

https://www.imore.com/apple-spending-record-amount-research-...

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by Aeolun on Sunday August 11, 2019 @03:47AM (#20666942)
It’s actually pretty impressive that they’re spending that much on R&D and still manage to make the next product worse than the previous one.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by cuban-frisbee on Sunday August 11, 2019 @04:10AM (#20667014)
Most of it is likely going to unannounced products like the rumored Apple car and and the rumored AR product.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by secfirstmd on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:25AM (#20667832)
I really don't understand how Apple hasn't used it's cash pile to buy Tesla. It seems like a pretty dam good fit.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by steelframe on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:06PM (#20668737)
> I really don't understand how Apple hasn't used it's cash pile to buy Tesla.

All you need to understand is that they haven't. Assuming Apple is still a sound and rational company pursuing a similar line of business, that should speak volumes to you.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by NotSammyHagar on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:13PM (#20670558)
Apple raising prices on their phones so 1k was probably an irrational choice. It's amazing how they are repeating history of the first time jobs was ejected from apple and they reduced innovation and were on the way to death until he came back and saved them with nextstep.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by nojvek on Sunday August 11, 2019 @10:36AM (#20668347)
I wonder about this too. Although Apple rarely makes big acquisitions. Elon’s not the kind of guy who will cede away control and Apple loves control. Plus Apple’s chief “Taste person” and chief designer have left so it’s no longer a product company. It’s a squeeze the Juice kind of company.

I’m bearish on Apple too.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by sangnoir on Sunday August 11, 2019 @04:11PM (#20670166)
Tesla has miserable margins, by Apple's standards.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by AliAdams on Monday August 12, 2019 @07:06AM (#20674322)
I'm not sure if the US is the same as the UK, but here there are tax incentives [1] to classify, or interpret as much engineering time as possible as R&D.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/corporation-tax-research-and-dev...

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by uoaei on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:55PM (#20670798)
As hiring pools get bigger, the pressure to "just fill seats" increases to strong diminishing returns on investment. 5x R&D spending means probably more like 2x R&D output, with a lot more noise in the design and development processes that create opportunities for bad ideas to filter through all the way to production.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by OJFord on Sunday August 11, 2019 @04:24AM (#20667057)
R&D won't be the next product, it'll be probably minimum 5 years out, and up to 20-25.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by temac on Sunday August 11, 2019 @06:43AM (#20667497)
It's both.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by jquery on Sunday August 11, 2019 @03:12AM (#20666818)
Apple may be spending a lot on research but they've recently become too obsessed with mobile profits over holistic prosumer experience. I don't think I'm the only heavy Apple user considering leaving the reservation if they choose to focus on mobile consumption above everything else. If they don't fix the MPro[1], I've lost one of the major reasons I use Apple products at all, I thought the agreement was I pay Apple a nice fat 30% profit margin and in return they ensure I'm using the hands-down best computing devices on the market.

The Airport Extreme disappearing is another disappointment.

https://blog.pinboard.in/2016/10/benjamin_button_reviews_the... (not replacing my 2013 MPro until they fix all the issues with the current generation that I'm forced to use at work)

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by eecc on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:57AM (#20667360)
Just bought an Airport Express second hand to extend a Time Capsule network around a big concrete wall.

Impressed by the design and functionality of the thing, really just plug and move on.

Whoever decided to discontinue Apple WiFi should be kicked

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by jquery on Sunday August 11, 2019 @09:44AM (#20668139)
Yes, I got a Time Capsule with a nice fat spinning disc, and used its USB port to chain a 4TB HD to it, and have a 6TB networked Plex setup, which was relatively easy to set up and gets me strong dual signal everywhere in my 3 story house. Really impressive tech. The capsule has taken some abuse too and still works. Before that I had an Extreme with basically the same results minus Plex.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by jbverschoor on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:55PM (#20670801)
It’s not a closed system. So you end up with servicing a not so big product
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by jquery on Sunday August 11, 2019 @09:52PM (#20671829)
That's where you want to consider second order effects. The type of person who's buying an Apple Wifi router is probably spending a lot of money on Apple products, it's part of the "long tail". They might be the people most likely to evangelize their products. It keeps expertise about wifi inside of Apple. Getting rid of it seems like a move made by an executive who had to "do something" to look impressive. Apple isn't a cash-poor company that needs to ditch every product that's not part of their core offering. And the Airport wasn't a failed product line, it was a beloved one.

I have a feeling it's more to do with not wanting to help technologically illiterate individuals set up their own wifi, who blame "Apple" when their wifi doesn't work. But of course that's just speculation. The Airport lineup was bar-none the best easy-setup home router on the market when it was pulled.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by kmlx on Sunday August 11, 2019 @04:33AM (#20667082)
“they've recently become too obsessed with mobile profits over holistic prosumer experience”

“For the first time since 2013, iPhone sales did not account for at least half of Apple’s revenue”

i’d say that AAPL has been focusing on services more than anything else lately.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by mieseratte on Sunday August 11, 2019 @06:25AM (#20667439)
How much comes from iPhone sales and how much from iPhone app sales?
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by cobookman on Sunday August 11, 2019 @01:56AM (#20666520)
Say you can get debt at 3% interest. The same money could get 4-7% yearly average return in safe investments over a 7-15 year time frame.

Why wouldn't you aquire debt?

This is the same reason rich people get a mortgage even if you could afford to buy the house outright.

Best part is that debt is defaultable.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by User23 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @02:09AM (#20666580)
Anyone with collateral can go into debt at 3%(ish) interest. I've never heard of anyone getting a sizable loan for longer than overnight at that rate without collateral. If there is a counterexample please share it. And if a person defaults on a collateralized debt, well, they lose, and usually badly. Margin calls are one of the nastier examples, but foreclosures also come to mind. Even a safe investment like US Treasury bonds can trigger a margin call if, for example, interest rates rise and reduce the market value of the bond enough to fall below margin requirements.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by tomatocracy on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:23AM (#20667253)
Most vanilla corporate bonds are unsecured and offer nothing more than a promise not to give anyone else security over the corporate assets and an unsecured debt claim.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by jbverschoor on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:54PM (#20670793)
Then you must have been bearish for 6 years. Which simply means you’re wrong.

Apple does buybacks for “compensation”.

In reality I think they have these motivations:

1) they think their yield is higher than the market.

2) their company is not an investment fund, but you still want your cash deployed.

3) Steve wanted to have nothing to do with investors anymore

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by diedyesterday on Monday August 12, 2019 @06:53AM (#20674257)
Apple is not overvalued. It's P/E is actually very low considering the amount of cash for R&D and the potential for growth they have at hand. Currently it's bound by a lack on entrepreneurial imagination on part of its execs but has a sure future nonetheless.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by 8ytecoder on Saturday August 10, 2019 @11:23PM (#20666020)
More importantly it’s a question of who is better equipped to deploy capital - executives or investors? Intuitively it feels like the stock market was supposed to operate with buybacks and dividends. I invest money in exchange for shares. That money is deployed. Profits made. And slowly returned back to the investor. The investor deploys it elsewhere and the cycle begins.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-24/would-...

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by senderista on Sunday August 11, 2019 @01:04AM (#20666341)
So what about leveraged buybacks?
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by tomatocracy on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:32AM (#20667277)
They are a rebalancing between the portions of the business funded/owned by debt and by equity claims where the portion funded by equity claims has grown significantly out of balance as a result of interest rates (and thus discount rates) falling substantially.

Because there are large parts of the market who don't invest across the capital structure (ie they only buy debt or only buy equity), this can still lead to better allocation of capital.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by chibg10 on Sunday August 11, 2019 @02:52AM (#20666747)
The company can't sell shares it doesn't own. Think of it like a startup founder borrowing to buy out someone else's equity. If interest rates are near zero, it may make sense to borrow cheaply now to buy back stock that the company can then sell later when it actually needs an influx of capital (presumably when interest rates are higher and the stock has risen a bit). It's essentially a financial bet on the company's future prospects.

The market isn't perfect but if companies are really mortgaging their future to provide shareholder returns today, that would seem to be something easily noticed when analyzing the company's financials... thus weighing on future profitability and acting as a counterforce to the boost from the buyback.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by HashThis on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:10PM (#20668759)
A way the wealthy can rig the economy: 1) Right now, the richest 10% own 84% of all stocks 2) Public companies take out huge loans in corporate bonds 3) Do stock buy back to raise the price of stock 4) The wealthy shift into privately companies with a bigger precentage of their wealth 5) Workers with their 401k are trapped in public companies, brecause of Accredited Investor laws, they can't invest in private companies. 6) Workers with their 401k are left with only public companies. The companies are forever heldback by servicing that debt. 6) Workers lose out of stock price gains.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by aeternus on Monday August 12, 2019 @02:33AM (#20672966)
If you are confident in this scenario, then rollover your 401k into an IRA, enable options trading, and buy puts or short the companies that you believe took on too much debt.

No need to be an accredited investor.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by cryptica on Monday August 12, 2019 @02:46AM (#20673027)
This is not a good idea because with shorts you need to time the market correctly... Irrational markets can survive for years and shorts cost premiums, especially those with a distant expiry date. If you're not a stock analyst with inside info, you will not be able to get the timing right.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by aeternus on Monday August 12, 2019 @04:53PM (#20679887)
If you are concerned about timing it right, or macro-economic swings, simply purchase a corresponding long position in an index fund / S&P 500. Options do cost premiums, but shorts typically do not. You can however even recover the option premium with a similar strategy by selling a matching option on the index.

You can construct a trade that will make you money assuming your assumption is correct (that that company will underperform the market).

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by asdf333 on Saturday August 10, 2019 @09:01PM (#20665542)
another reason is that they do not find good uses of capital so they give it back to shareholders to deploy elsewhere.

you could just be out of good ideas

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by chiefalchemist on Saturday August 10, 2019 @09:56PM (#20665724)
Perhaps. But that's not a sustainable business model. Numerous like-companies out of ideas? Then plenty of C level, leadership, and management is overpaid. The fact that they benefit for these stock buybacks only makes matters worse.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by skybrian on Saturday August 10, 2019 @10:19PM (#20665809)
It's not literally "out of ideas". It's that your ideas don't require all that much money to implement compared to the amount of money coming in. Ideas for improving efficiency might pay for themselves quite quickly, putting you further in the hole. A nice problem to have. Maybe shareholders should benefit?

(Side note: what does "sustainable" mean here? Usually that involves some kind of steady state, not growing indefinitely, which is always going to have limits.)

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by geohotter on Saturday August 10, 2019 @10:43PM (#20665887)
Sure, shareholders should benefit in cases where too much money is coming in. However, isn’t the problem that the “money coming in” in this case is debt, not profit?
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by skybrian on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:21AM (#20666217)
Oh, I don't know but I can speculate.

First, you'd hope they have profits, or they wouldn't be able to pay the bondholders? The question is, where do the company's future profits go?

I guess you could think of it as being a bit more like a bank? A bank provides a service to its depositors, holding their money and paying a little interest. A company does something similar for its bondholders, at higher risk than bank deposits but lower than stocks.

The company is for some reason deciding it wants to expand into the "provide a service to bondholders" business. It's a bit weird to talk about "providing bondholder value" but that's basically what they're doing, by staying in business, paying the interest, and rolling over the bonds. Stockholders get a one-time windfall when a company expands into this business, as the company for whatever reason doesn't actually need the cash.

It's a bit weird to borrow money from bondholders for this purpose, but you could think of it as doing things out of order. Instead of borrowing money to grow the business, they grow the business first, then borrow the money. Less risky that way!

You might also think of it this way: maybe some investors are looking for less risky investments. They would rather have bonds than stocks. Companies are responding to that.

Maybe we should be worried about companies being more bank-like? Life is uncertain. Why are they making guarantees they might not be able to keep? We've been this way before with banks chopping up mortgages to make "safe" investments.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by fauigerzigerk on Sunday August 11, 2019 @03:53AM (#20666957)
I look at it this way: There are exactly two sources of funding for companies, equity and debt. As debt gets cheaper (interest rates going down), debt funding becomes more attractive relative to equity. So naturally, companies will shift more of their funding towards debt. It's not inherently a bad thing, but there are two issues:

One is that a new equilibrium will eventually be reached. At that point, buybacks will stop and it will hit EPS growth. I wonder if people are aware of what a huge chunk of EPS growth has been coming from buybacks in recent years. I fear the stock market may be in for a rude awakening when the buyback music stops.

The second issue is that debt has an expiry date whereas equity does not. Theoretically, the risk of not being able to roll over debt in a downturn should be reflected in the coupon a company has to pay on its debt.

We'll see whether corporate debt hasn't become too cheap already. We could once again be facing a situation where the effect of everyone having to do the same thing at the same time is not adequately priced in.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by chiefalchemist on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:40AM (#20667910)
This sounds similar to the housing bubble. That is, the psychology is "It'll be fine. Everyone is doing it." But few are looking at the next possible what ifs.

If that's the case, this can only end badly.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by chiefalchemist on Sunday August 11, 2019 @06:53AM (#20667527)
If your ideas don't require all that much money then they are easy and obvious. Again, if the "barrier to entry" (to such ideas) is that low then that's not a sustainable business model. Unless. You are confident your "competition" isn't really trying to compete either.

Sustainable means to stay in business. If you're not trying to fend off competition; if you're not trying to grow/expand; then you are waiting to die. Death =/= sustainable.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by pfdietz on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:04AM (#20666164)
> But that's not a sustainable business model.

If a business doesn't have a sustainable business model, it should operate in a way that maximizes value to its shareholders as it goes through its end. Remember, preserving the corporation is not the goal; maximizing value to the shareholders is the goal.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by chiefalchemist on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:44AM (#20667922)
Yes and no. What I feel you're describing is a Ponzi Scheme. Sure you're maximizing value for the current shareholders, but someone is going to be left holding the bag. What about __those__ shareholders? You're no longer maximizing for them. In fact, if you're not disclosing your plan to slide down and into oblivion then wouldn't that be fraud?
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by hossbeast on Sunday August 11, 2019 @01:35AM (#20666447)
Who decides this is the goal? Do all corporations have this as their ultimate goal?
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by gridlockd on Sunday August 11, 2019 @11:07AM (#20668476)
It is their legal obligation.

https://www.litigationandtrial.com/2010/09/articles/series/s...

Imagine you invested money into some enterprise that promised you a share of the profits it will attempt to gain. If that enterprise never actually attempted to turn a profit, it would effectively be fraud.

Now let's imagine they do give you a share of the profits, but the enterprise spends most of its income on frivolous and unnecessary expenses and therefore the profits are very small, that would still effectively be fraud.

Therefore, the provision is to maximize value. It is the basic responsibility of anyone running a public company. Of course this is all fuzzy and you do have a lot of leeway in justifying expenses/investments, but the principle remains.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by chiefalchemist on Sunday August 11, 2019 @04:25PM (#20670252)
> Therefore, the provision is to maximize value. It is the basic responsibility of anyone running a public company. Of course this is all fuzzy and you do have a lot of leeway in justifying expenses/investments, but the principle remains.

And this is where the law can step in. The shareholders can unite and take action. Or the gov can atep in. For example, the state of NY is going after Exxon Mobile for fraud, as related to EM's lack of disclosure over their role in climate change.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by ssteeper on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:25AM (#20667259)
This is the standard/traditional theory of business, right? No one person decided it, it's just a theory about a capitalist markets. This theory is cited as one of the main guiding principles in corporate ethics as well.

https://www.accountingtools.com/articles/2019/1/25/sharehold...

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by repolfx on Sunday August 11, 2019 @07:08AM (#20667574)
Nobody specifically but it's not the wrong goal. Remember that "zombie companies" that don't make sense anymore but the state won't let die is a typical sign of a sclerotic Communist economy. At some point the existence of a company has to be a means not an end, so what is the end? Shareholder value. Because that's what ultimately means a company had positive return on investment and that is the closest signal we have to "doing something useful".
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by gridlockd on Sunday August 11, 2019 @10:56AM (#20668431)
> Remember, preserving the corporation is not the goal; maximizing value to the shareholders is the goal.

Preserving the the company is generally quite important in order to maximize value.

The "maximizing value" provision doesn't imply "in the short term", unless for some reason all the value is only in the short term.

If this wasn't the case, no company could ever invest in anything, because that lowers the short-term value.

Of course in practice the short term is often given preference, but that's not because of the provision.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by pfdietz on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:43PM (#20668968)
> Preserving the the company is generally quite important in order to maximize value.

Often it is, but not always. If the market for the company's product is going away it may make sense to just ride things down to the end, milking as much as they can as they die.

Monetizing other value in the company may also be possible, of course. The corporation could be purchased, or its parts could be sold in liquidation. The point is that survival of the corporation is not an end in itself, it's only relevant insofar as its maximizes shareholder value.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by manderley on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:27AM (#20667267)
If maximizing value to the shareholders is the goal, companies should dissolve and pay out the proceeds as dividends.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by aeternus on Monday August 12, 2019 @02:53AM (#20673069)
That may maximize the immediate value to shareholders, but the real goal is to maximize all discounted future cash flows.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by calgaryeng on Sunday August 11, 2019 @11:00AM (#20668456)
That's not how business works.

- Corporate tax vs. individual tax - Deferred tax assets - Sum-of-the-parts valuations - Internal project NPVs > NPV of investments available to an investor

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by aeternus on Monday August 12, 2019 @02:47AM (#20673034)
The entire purpose of a company is to return value to shareholders. Due to our current tax law, buybacks are a much better way to do that than dividends.

Are you saying that a company should invest 100% back into itself? There are a few very successful companies that do that, but the vast majority do not. Most companies return value to shareholders regularly in the form of dividends (or buybacks).

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by dsfyu404ed on Saturday August 10, 2019 @09:46PM (#20665694)
Or the definition of "good" is so stringent that it's hard to satisfy so you just give it back.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by devoply on Saturday August 10, 2019 @09:47PM (#20665700)
there is also a term called bleeding the pig... where you load up a company with a lot of debt and eventually the company goes bankrupt... guess who doesn't lose out though. buybacks are taxed at a capital gains tax rate, whereas dividends are subject to ordinary income tax.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by akavi on Saturday August 10, 2019 @10:09PM (#20665762)
In the USA, dividends on stock one has held for more than a year is taxed as long term capital gains.

The tax advantage of buybacks is they allow the shareholder to choose when the taxes are incurred, not how they’re taxed.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by throw0101a on Saturday August 10, 2019 @10:01PM (#20665742)
> ... whereas dividends are subject to ordinary income tax.

Not in Canada:

> Unlike many other countries, dividends from Canadian based companies are eligible for a somewhat convoluted set of calculations that can fondly be described as the dividend gross up and tax credit system. The basic rationale behind this system is that dividends are paid by corporations after the taxman has already taken his cut. Therefore, if dividend payments were fully taxed in the hands of the investor as well, it would equate to a double taxation.

* https://www.fool.ca/13-steps-to-financial-freedom/step-8-the...

* https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/dividendtaxcredit.asp

It's slightly convoluted, but if you have investments in taxable accounts, then there's a bit of advantage in them than simply interest. Though capital gains in Canada is only taxed at half of one's marginal rate as well.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by Scoundreller on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:07PM (#20670522)
Right, but this means, for Canadians, dividends paid by non-Canadian corps are taxed as regular income. Stocks to do buybacks instead of dividends are more valuable to us.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by chiefalchemist on Saturday August 10, 2019 @09:57PM (#20665727)
Are there that many companies bleeding the pig? Possible. But how likely?
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by Nasrudith on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:26AM (#20667841)
I can see a third answer for why but is for a more extreme version of buybacks - going private. If they feel that they are getting far too much quarterly earnings short-termism as opposed to long term vision.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by ISL on Sunday August 11, 2019 @03:32AM (#20666888)
Not investing is a wise decision when there is nothing available at a reasonable price.

Berkshire Hathaway's cash position is evidence of exactly that. There's nothing good on sale right now. My own opinion of the state of the market is similar -- while I haven't been looking hard, I haven't found a solid value investment with a margin of safety in at least two years.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by legulere on Sunday August 11, 2019 @07:26AM (#20667643)
Also in mature markets where the amount of innovation you can get is tiny compared to the amount of money you need to invest to get it.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by nemonemo on Saturday August 10, 2019 @09:04PM (#20665550)
Or, when a better investment opportunity is on the horizon. If an economic recession serious enough to affect good companies is looming, and if some savvy people with capital know it coming by the data or instinct, they might hold off their investment until the time comes so that the can "invest" or acquire those good companies at a better term.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by formercoder on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:00AM (#20666153)
There is record private equity dry powder right now. Money is on the sidelines waiting for asset prices to come down and investors are only buying recession safe assets.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by TAForObvReasons on Saturday August 10, 2019 @09:08PM (#20665565)
If that were the case, why wouldn't the companies just hold onto the cash, wait for the recession, then use the cash reserves to buy back their stock on the cheap?
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by nemonemo on Saturday August 10, 2019 @09:13PM (#20665577)
I was answering to the comment (paywalled by the article), and I believe a few companies do hold onto the cash when they see the opportunity, but probably not many would have the gut or the data.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by zamalek on Saturday August 10, 2019 @10:53PM (#20665915)
The third answer is that debt is risky. Economy crashes? You're toast. Stock market crashes? You're toast.

The first rule of investment/saving is to nuke your debts. Stocks are, effectively, debts. This makes complete sense to me. It's a conservative (the unpolitical kind) approach.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by RhodesianHunter on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:38AM (#20666265)
Not really. Debt at low interest rates is pretty low risk. The first rule of investment is to deploy your capital where you will realize the best returns. If you can make 6% and have borrowed at 3% then paying down your debts would be foolish.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by prirun on Sunday August 11, 2019 @11:11AM (#20668496)
I think this works as long as you have income to pay off the debt and actually are paying off the debt. But isn't it a problem when:

- you're only paying the interest and rolling over the debt; that only works with declining interest rates

- your income goes down for whatever reason and you can no longer make the debt payments

- you think "I'll just sell the stock" I accumulated, but that may not be possible if the stock price is declining.

If your income goes down, your stock price is probably also declining at the same time, but you still have those debt payments to make.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by konschubert on Sunday August 11, 2019 @10:19AM (#20668272)
It may also be that you realize that your shareholders know better how to invest the money than you do.

If, as a company, you feel that the thing you’ve been doing won’t be relevant in the future, you can either try to do new stuff, or give money back to shareholders so THEY can do new stuff.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by whenanother on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:07AM (#20666170)
this is literally a ponzi scheme and a tax avoidance scheme rolled up into one. I wouldn't be surprised if money is being laundered in this scheme as well. borrow a billion dollars and buy back a billion and 100 million dollars in shares, who's going to notice the 100 million that got slipped in?
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by dangero on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:09AM (#20666182)
Can you explain who should notice the 100 million and won’t? I’m not following.