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Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by chiefalchemist on Saturday August 10, 2019 @09:56PM (#20665724)
Perhaps. But that's not a sustainable business model. Numerous like-companies out of ideas? Then plenty of C level, leadership, and management is overpaid. The fact that they benefit for these stock buybacks only makes matters worse.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by skybrian on Saturday August 10, 2019 @10:19PM (#20665809)
It's not literally "out of ideas". It's that your ideas don't require all that much money to implement compared to the amount of money coming in. Ideas for improving efficiency might pay for themselves quite quickly, putting you further in the hole. A nice problem to have. Maybe shareholders should benefit?

(Side note: what does "sustainable" mean here? Usually that involves some kind of steady state, not growing indefinitely, which is always going to have limits.)

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by geohotter on Saturday August 10, 2019 @10:43PM (#20665887)
Sure, shareholders should benefit in cases where too much money is coming in. However, isn’t the problem that the “money coming in” in this case is debt, not profit?
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by skybrian on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:21AM (#20666217)
Oh, I don't know but I can speculate.

First, you'd hope they have profits, or they wouldn't be able to pay the bondholders? The question is, where do the company's future profits go?

I guess you could think of it as being a bit more like a bank? A bank provides a service to its depositors, holding their money and paying a little interest. A company does something similar for its bondholders, at higher risk than bank deposits but lower than stocks.

The company is for some reason deciding it wants to expand into the "provide a service to bondholders" business. It's a bit weird to talk about "providing bondholder value" but that's basically what they're doing, by staying in business, paying the interest, and rolling over the bonds. Stockholders get a one-time windfall when a company expands into this business, as the company for whatever reason doesn't actually need the cash.

It's a bit weird to borrow money from bondholders for this purpose, but you could think of it as doing things out of order. Instead of borrowing money to grow the business, they grow the business first, then borrow the money. Less risky that way!

You might also think of it this way: maybe some investors are looking for less risky investments. They would rather have bonds than stocks. Companies are responding to that.

Maybe we should be worried about companies being more bank-like? Life is uncertain. Why are they making guarantees they might not be able to keep? We've been this way before with banks chopping up mortgages to make "safe" investments.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by fauigerzigerk on Sunday August 11, 2019 @03:53AM (#20666957)
I look at it this way: There are exactly two sources of funding for companies, equity and debt. As debt gets cheaper (interest rates going down), debt funding becomes more attractive relative to equity. So naturally, companies will shift more of their funding towards debt. It's not inherently a bad thing, but there are two issues:

One is that a new equilibrium will eventually be reached. At that point, buybacks will stop and it will hit EPS growth. I wonder if people are aware of what a huge chunk of EPS growth has been coming from buybacks in recent years. I fear the stock market may be in for a rude awakening when the buyback music stops.

The second issue is that debt has an expiry date whereas equity does not. Theoretically, the risk of not being able to roll over debt in a downturn should be reflected in the coupon a company has to pay on its debt.

We'll see whether corporate debt hasn't become too cheap already. We could once again be facing a situation where the effect of everyone having to do the same thing at the same time is not adequately priced in.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by chiefalchemist on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:40AM (#20667910)
This sounds similar to the housing bubble. That is, the psychology is "It'll be fine. Everyone is doing it." But few are looking at the next possible what ifs.

If that's the case, this can only end badly.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by chiefalchemist on Sunday August 11, 2019 @06:53AM (#20667527)
If your ideas don't require all that much money then they are easy and obvious. Again, if the "barrier to entry" (to such ideas) is that low then that's not a sustainable business model. Unless. You are confident your "competition" isn't really trying to compete either.

Sustainable means to stay in business. If you're not trying to fend off competition; if you're not trying to grow/expand; then you are waiting to die. Death =/= sustainable.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by pfdietz on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:04AM (#20666164)
> But that's not a sustainable business model.

If a business doesn't have a sustainable business model, it should operate in a way that maximizes value to its shareholders as it goes through its end. Remember, preserving the corporation is not the goal; maximizing value to the shareholders is the goal.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by chiefalchemist on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:44AM (#20667922)
Yes and no. What I feel you're describing is a Ponzi Scheme. Sure you're maximizing value for the current shareholders, but someone is going to be left holding the bag. What about __those__ shareholders? You're no longer maximizing for them. In fact, if you're not disclosing your plan to slide down and into oblivion then wouldn't that be fraud?
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by hossbeast on Sunday August 11, 2019 @01:35AM (#20666447)
Who decides this is the goal? Do all corporations have this as their ultimate goal?
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by gridlockd on Sunday August 11, 2019 @11:07AM (#20668476)
It is their legal obligation.

https://www.litigationandtrial.com/2010/09/articles/series/s...

Imagine you invested money into some enterprise that promised you a share of the profits it will attempt to gain. If that enterprise never actually attempted to turn a profit, it would effectively be fraud.

Now let's imagine they do give you a share of the profits, but the enterprise spends most of its income on frivolous and unnecessary expenses and therefore the profits are very small, that would still effectively be fraud.

Therefore, the provision is to maximize value. It is the basic responsibility of anyone running a public company. Of course this is all fuzzy and you do have a lot of leeway in justifying expenses/investments, but the principle remains.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by chiefalchemist on Sunday August 11, 2019 @04:25PM (#20670252)
> Therefore, the provision is to maximize value. It is the basic responsibility of anyone running a public company. Of course this is all fuzzy and you do have a lot of leeway in justifying expenses/investments, but the principle remains.

And this is where the law can step in. The shareholders can unite and take action. Or the gov can atep in. For example, the state of NY is going after Exxon Mobile for fraud, as related to EM's lack of disclosure over their role in climate change.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by ssteeper on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:25AM (#20667259)
This is the standard/traditional theory of business, right? No one person decided it, it's just a theory about a capitalist markets. This theory is cited as one of the main guiding principles in corporate ethics as well.

https://www.accountingtools.com/articles/2019/1/25/sharehold...

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by repolfx on Sunday August 11, 2019 @07:08AM (#20667574)
Nobody specifically but it's not the wrong goal. Remember that "zombie companies" that don't make sense anymore but the state won't let die is a typical sign of a sclerotic Communist economy. At some point the existence of a company has to be a means not an end, so what is the end? Shareholder value. Because that's what ultimately means a company had positive return on investment and that is the closest signal we have to "doing something useful".
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by gridlockd on Sunday August 11, 2019 @10:56AM (#20668431)
> Remember, preserving the corporation is not the goal; maximizing value to the shareholders is the goal.

Preserving the the company is generally quite important in order to maximize value.

The "maximizing value" provision doesn't imply "in the short term", unless for some reason all the value is only in the short term.

If this wasn't the case, no company could ever invest in anything, because that lowers the short-term value.

Of course in practice the short term is often given preference, but that's not because of the provision.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by pfdietz on Sunday August 11, 2019 @12:43PM (#20668968)
> Preserving the the company is generally quite important in order to maximize value.

Often it is, but not always. If the market for the company's product is going away it may make sense to just ride things down to the end, milking as much as they can as they die.

Monetizing other value in the company may also be possible, of course. The corporation could be purchased, or its parts could be sold in liquidation. The point is that survival of the corporation is not an end in itself, it's only relevant insofar as its maximizes shareholder value.

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by manderley on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:27AM (#20667267)
If maximizing value to the shareholders is the goal, companies should dissolve and pay out the proceeds as dividends.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by aeternus on Monday August 12, 2019 @02:53AM (#20673069)
That may maximize the immediate value to shareholders, but the real goal is to maximize all discounted future cash flows.
Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by calgaryeng on Sunday August 11, 2019 @11:00AM (#20668456)
That's not how business works.

- Corporate tax vs. individual tax - Deferred tax assets - Sum-of-the-parts valuations - Internal project NPVs > NPV of investments available to an investor

Re:Companies Use Borrowed Billions to Buy Back Stock, Not to... by aeternus on Monday August 12, 2019 @02:47AM (#20673034)
The entire purpose of a company is to return value to shareholders. Due to our current tax law, buybacks are a much better way to do that than dividends.

Are you saying that a company should invest 100% back into itself? There are a few very successful companies that do that, but the vast majority do not. Most companies return value to shareholders regularly in the form of dividends (or buybacks).