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Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by the_watcher on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:27PM (#20519932)
Seriously asking: why not? Do you just not believe that scale is possible?

I hadn't thought about it, but let's make a few assumptions and see how realistic that is.

* 7.7B people in the world.

* Subtract 1.4B people in China (even though plenty of those people actually have FB and login when abroad or via VPN, there are more countries where Facebook is blocked, plus outliers where usage is low).

* We don't want to count people who are really young. There's also a decay in popularity related entirely to age. I'm going to use ages 15-64, simply because the World Bank made it easy to get an estimate: ~65% of the global population[0].

* We have (7.7-1.4) x .65 = ~4.01B people between 15 and 64 years old in countries with Facebook. Given that Facebook growth skews towards countries with younger populations, I'd say this is a hard floor on what I'll call the "eligible Facebook population".

50% is high at first glance, but keep in mind that we've already excluded most of the low hanging fruit that would make it definitionally impossible for someone to use Facebook. I'd say their number is high, but not spit-take high.

[0] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.1564.TO.ZS

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by Nelson69 on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @06:13PM (#20520495)
Plus there are a ton of over 64 folks on there...

Riddle me this: why would they lie? Shareholders could sue, since they try to infer some value from it there could be other legal consequences. If they only had, say 1billion daily active users instead of 1.56billion, would that really water their value down much? I don't see a competitor coming to eat their lunch that would rationalize lying about that stuff.

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by polishTar on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @06:40PM (#20520751)
Also, why would they even care about reporting high numbers? Facebook's leadership doesn't have any of the typical business pressures to please investors. Leadership (Zuckerberg) already holds majority voting power, and Facebook is fully self sufficient financially (no concerns about needing to raise more capital at poor prices).
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by the_watcher on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @07:14PM (#20521059)
They're definitely in a unique position, but there's always simply not wanting to crush their investor relations department, not that I have any evidence or suspicions that this factors in at all.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by the_watcher on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @06:16PM (#20520531)
Flat growth numbers would water down their value, particularly in developed markets, as we saw last July. But more to your point, these number are so astoundingly high, and have been for years that you're really asking "why would they ever have overestimated these numbers?", which gets to the same point.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by Simon_says on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @07:04PM (#20520982)
I have over a hundred Facebook accounts, so I’m helping!
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by ghostbrainalpha on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @07:28PM (#20521163)
I've been out of that game for 5-6 years, but I was managing about 1K accounts at my peak.

Their fraud prevention stuff flagged a bunch of them but >50% of them are still active.

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by geekone on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @08:52PM (#20521665)
What were they used for?
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by ghostbrainalpha on Thursday July 25, 2019 @11:53AM (#20526427)
Looking back it was so juvenile that I am embarrassed. But I used to sell popularity services for new businesses on MySpace and Facebook. I would get them high friend counts, lots of likes for their page, and even like or upvote certain posts make them appear more popular.

It literally did nothing of real value and was a complete waste of time. And in the case of Facebook probably set them seriously behind in doing actual good marketing because their social graph was completely destroyed by the artificial campaigns.

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by type0 on Thursday July 25, 2019 @04:37AM (#20523676)
ah, let me guess...

"marketing"

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by bliteben on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @06:22PM (#20520585)
This is a great analysis and basically where I was going in my head with this, but you are missing one critical fact, how much of the world has internet access. I think if we just assume that number is 75% which seems to be way too high just looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage. Then we can see a better picture of how their numbers are something that any accounting firm should have a hard time certifying.

I would certainly believe 50% of the total population for MAU or numbers hovering near it for the US/C and probably most of Europe for monthly active users. That matches my anecdotal observations, however they claim 75% of the total pop for US/C and 48.9% of the total pop for Europe MAU. To think that somehow they claim the rest of the world has over 50% of its population using facebook once a month, when even Europe doesn't seem to meet this threshold just seems.....

I have just noticed that they try to lump duplicate and false accounts together and give a number of 11%, but then later they state that false accounts are actually 5% bringing the total fake accounts to at least 16%, which I still think is low, but it is getting to a point to where it may not be as clear cut fraud. I would bet their total account numbers would also be helpful in showing how many are duplicates or fake, but not sure they disclose that anywhere, probably due to their shadow accounts as well.

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by the_watcher on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @07:12PM (#20521053)
Facebook generally groups their regions into North America, Latin America, APAC (Asia Pacific) and EMEA (Europe, Middle East, Africa), so the 50% "Europe" number you are referring to isn't really as comparable as "EU+Russia v. US", which seems to be an assumption you are making.

I did consider people with internet access, I just didn't call it out. I think it's beyond reasonable that Facebook has >50% penetration of the total eligible Facebook population with internet access, and I'd believe upwards of 80%. Internet.org essentially exists because Facebook knows that they've been approaching this ceiling for years.

Also, referring to duplicates+false as 11% and then false as 5% doesn't imply 11+5=16. It just means that "not unique individuals" is a superset of "not actually real people at all".

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by bliteben on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @11:05PM (#20522231)
It clearly says in the 1Q 10Q:

Europe includes all users in Russia and Turkey and Rest of World includes all users in Africa, Latin America, and the Middle East.

I do agree they probably do mean that mean a superset, the wording is kinda odd maybe to downplay the number of false accounts, which are the real issue not the duplicate ones.

I still think these numbers are false, I think it is probably a service to the people working at instagram and whatsapp, that they aren't reporting these numbers, which basically require them to always go up.

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by threeseed on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:00PM (#20519635)
You do understand these documents are vetted by accountants, lawyers, compliance officers etc.

It is highly unlikely they are falsely claiming those numbers. What is likely is that they are including loose interactions e.g. OAuth Login as MAUs.

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by mtmail on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:23PM (#20519889)
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/monthly-active-user-mau...

"Facebook revised its definition of MAU: It would no longer include "third-party pings"—that is, people who are not active Facebook users, but who share content only via another site that's integrated within the Facebook login."

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by bliteben on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:02PM (#20519658)
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by darawk on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:04PM (#20519677)
What is it that you think the 10Q says that validates your claim that these numbers are false?
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by bliteben on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:08PM (#20519726)
We define a monthly active user as a registered Facebook user who logged in and visited Facebook through our website or a mobile device, or used our Messenger application (and is also a registered Facebook user), in the last 30 days as of the date of measurement. MAUs are a measure of the size of our global active user community on Facebook.

They do mention that they think 11% of their accounts are duplicates. But even then I think the numbers smell off.

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by rolltiide on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:09PM (#20519741)
You act like big ‘vetted’ companies have never restated earnings for prior quarters years after the fact

It looks fishy

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by cm2012 on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:25PM (#20519909)
"I know nothing about this subject and/or area, but nonetheless strongly believe people involved need to go to jail"
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by gt565k on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @04:57PM (#20519609)
Probably a combination of Facebook, Facebook messenger, whatsapp, instagram, and god knows what else.

Maybe anything using facebook login counts as an activity. I.e. people that login to spotify with FB, but never use FB.

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by bliteben on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:02PM (#20519651)
From their 1Q 10Q (2Q is not up yet):

. We define a monthly active user as a registered Facebook user who logged in and visited Facebook through our website or a mobile device, or used our Messenger application (and is also a registered Facebook user), in the last 30 days as of the date of measurement. MAUs are a measure of the size of our global active user community on Facebook.

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by ThundaUp on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:02PM (#20519652)
From the slide it says

"The numbers for DAUs and MAUs do not include Instagram, WhatsApp, or Oculus users unless they would otherwise qualify as such users, respectively, based on their other activities on Facebook."

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by sharkmerry on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:00PM (#20519637)
If you click a like button, on any website. Thats an MAU.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by cjhopman on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:15PM (#20519805)
I don't think that's true.

Their old 10Q said this:

> An active user is someone who visited Facebook.com and logged-in (or has been logged in) or who has taken an action with a Facebook feature (for example, clicked a ‘like button.)

The current ones say this:

> a monthly active user as a registered Facebook user who logged in and visited Facebook through our website or a mobile device, or used our Messenger application (and is also a registered Facebook user), in the last 30 days as of the date of measurement.

Clicking a like button is no longer sufficient to count as an active user. I believe there were articles about this when they changed it, but I'm not sure.

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by cjhopman on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:16PM (#20519817)
Yeah, here's an article from 2015 when they changed the definition: https://www.adweek.com/digital/monthly-active-users-definiti...
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by sharkmerry on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @06:38PM (#20520728)
thanks! I was not aware.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by cameronbrown on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:07PM (#20519710)
That still requires having an account and likely a shedload of your data on FB being tracked.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by sofaofthedamned on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:14PM (#20519786)
I assume that's the case, but is it true? Does it include people who have a FB cookie?
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by samsonradu on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:17PM (#20519834)
Just for some context, more than half of those users are in Asia (India, Indonesia etc.)

https://www.statista.com/statistics/268136/top-15-countries-...

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by ddillon on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:36PM (#20520040)
The stats on that page only add up to 1.076B
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by axaxs on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:20PM (#20519854)
I'd wager they have 2.41 B monthly active accounts, but not users. My mom has something like 3 accounts. Where my wife is from, everyone seems to have at least 2 accounts, sometimes many more. And I'm sure millions, if not hundreds of millions, are the same. I wouldn't be surprised if their MAU surpassed the population of many locales, but they'd never admit as much.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by bliteben on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:25PM (#20519905)
They say that duplicate or "false" accounts make up 10% of their total numbers. They also are effectively banned in China and Russia to my understanding. So they are claiming that more than 1/4 of the whole world (even the undeveloped parts) use their website once a month even accounting for these false users.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by the_watcher on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:30PM (#20519953)
Facebook is blocked in China, not Russia. However, there are plenty of Chinese MAUs when factoring VPNs and those who travel abroad. Basically, you can subtract the total Chinese population from the world population and assume you've properly discounted the global population to account for the few other countries where it's banned and factored in those who travel or connect via VPN (Iran, North Korea, etc).
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by RussianCow on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:22PM (#20519881)
I'm curious, what's the use case for having multiple Facebook accounts? Presumably you're talking about actual user accounts, and not Pages.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by axaxs on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:32PM (#20519982)
My wife's friends/family use them as a form of silo'ing different groups of people. I haven't used FB in years but there used to not really be a good way to do that, at least. That would be my guess. For example, my wife is friends with her own sister 3 times as 3 slightly varying names.

I won't get into my mom's use case. I think she mainly uses them to friend with and snoop on people. Weird lady.

Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by anbop on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @06:27PM (#20520621)
I use one for my personal use. Another for video calls for my kid. Another for snooping on girls I slept with when I was single. A fourth for apps that want third party login.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by spullara on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @04:59PM (#20519624)
Why do you think that? They own all the most popular platforms outside of China.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by patricklorio on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @04:54PM (#20519574)
Do they define "monthly active users"?
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by artemisyna on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:16PM (#20519818)
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by XCSme on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:17PM (#20519827)
That includes Whatsapp and Instagram, right? Instagram is pretty hype atm.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by bitxbit on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:07PM (#20519718)
I don’t get this metric especially after they specifically disclosed that their metrics could be off by as much as 5% last quarter from “fake” accounts (which they oddly didn’t disclose financially).
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by TheSoftwareGuy on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:00PM (#20519630)
I wonder if "people who visit a website with a facebook tracking script that have been successfully fingerprinted" count as a user. If so I could believe that number
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by miguelmota on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @06:17PM (#20520533)
If by 'monthly active' it means someone that checks the facebook app at least once a month, then it's surely a plausible claim.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by anbop on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @06:23PM (#20520591)
Why would they lie? These numbers hurt their stock price because they suggest that future growth is capped.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by bootlooped on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:02PM (#20519649)
That number includes bots.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by the_watcher on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:31PM (#20519979)
No, it does not.
Re:Facebook revenue beats estimates; discloses antitrust probe by arrty88 on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:06PM (#20519701)
All my friends' pets have accounts. Plus celeb "official" + "personal". + Brand pages.