News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by lapusta on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:11PM (#20043463)
Open Banking is a big buzzword at the moment. It is good to distinguish different aspects of it:

1) Regulation. What you heard as "PSD2" - is essentially a directive by European Commission and EBA demanding banks to open up access to accounts data and payment initiation. Neither it defines by what means this access should be provided, nor when it should be available - each European country Central Bank can decide on its own.

2) Technical Specification. Examples are OpenBanking UK specification or The Berlin Group - would be groups of banks or local regulators trying to define common standards. Think of interface definition that describes both APIs as well as journeys/workflows.

3) Compliance. In the EU some of the banks (mostly large ones) are now required to be PSD2 compliant, which means they would need to expose their APIs through the standards described above. In the US, where there is no such requirement - the only way to access the bank account is to emulate a browser.

4) Third-Party Providers or Aggregators (Plaid, Teller, Tink, SaltEdge, Bud...) - would essentially provide access to the accounts of multiple banks via APIs. If you look at Plaid in the US - their codebase is probably 50%+ screenscraping/user emulation scripts in order to retrieve your accounts from e.g. Bank of America. For the EU fin-techs its a bit better, but still depends per country (remember Berlin Group vs UK OpenBanking?).

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by Nursie on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:37PM (#20043757)
> would be groups of banks or local regulators trying to define common standards

Why 'would be' just out of interest?

AFAICT Open Banking is an organisation that has been given a mandate by the UK government, through the competition and marketing authority, and is funded by the nine largest retail banks. In the UK it is the defacto standard, and compliance of the CMA 9 is mandatory.

While there is so far no consistent standard across the EU, at least within the UK this one is set and pretty much non-negotiable.

(Disclaimer - I have consulted with Open Banking and continue to do so, but of course I do not speak on their behalf)

-- edit --

I'm particularly interested in this -

> Third-Party Providers or Aggregators (Plaid, Teller, Tink, SaltEdge, Bud...) - would essentially provide access to the accounts of multiple banks via APIs.

As AFAICT this would be explicitly disallowed unless all the users of said APIs are themselves accredited. You can't just get accredited for PSD2/OB API use, then expose that information to non-accredited entities. If this is what Plaid are doing then I wouldn't expect their accreditation to last all that long.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by lapusta on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @04:00PM (#20044691)
> Why 'would be' just out of interest?

The scenario is typically the following. After the EU Commission approves the directive, each country has to transform it into the national law and define the authority/approach/timelines. In the case of the UK, it's indeed the way you've described.

> As AFAICT this would be explicitly disallowed unless all the users of said APIs are themselves accredited.

In UK Plaid would have to follow the OpenBanking regulation indeed and provide access according to the consent of the account owner. In the US they are just storing your password and using it according to their privacy policy.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by Nursie on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:38PM (#20045812)
I'm not sure they would be allowed to provide access to another party at all, if the other party wasn't accredited, regardless of consent.

I'm sure they've looked into this with their lawyers, but acting as an escape route for banking data to non-approved entities is not likely to be smiled upon.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by cormac_q on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @06:27PM (#20046295)
They are allowed to provide access but with a few stipulations:

Firstly, the consumer must be aware that they are sharing their data via Plaid (i.e. Plaid can't hide behind the scenes).

Secondly, there are certain exceptions for needing to be regulated by the FCA - particularly if you don't show any data back to the user.

In practice, it makes sense to be regulated by the FCA regardless because asking to share bank information/transactions with Plaid can turn users off and you're limited with what you can do with that data without being regulated/authorised.

Source: Fintech founder in the UK/Ireland.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by Nursie on Thursday May 30, 2019 @08:16AM (#20050378)
I find that surprising, given the lengths OB go to to ensure that only registered, accredited entities can participate in using their APIs. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I find it surprising.

(Source, I consult with OB and have a hand in their PKI, I don't speak for them and I'm not part of or informed well about anything to do with the regulatory environment)

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by mariushn on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:12PM (#20045552)
> nor when it should be available

PSD2 deadline is set to September 2019: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-17-4961_en.htm

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by wayzel on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @04:55PM (#20045364)
"In the US, where there is no such requirement - the only way to access the bank account is to emulate a browser."

Not entirely correct. In the US, JPMorganChase, Intuit, and others have adopted the OFX standard (consortium-based, which provides #2) as a more secure, controlled API alternative to browser emulation.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by lapusta on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:12PM (#20045556)
You are right, although Plaid has quite a critical view on OFX https://plaid.com/documents/Plaid-Financial-Data-Access-Meth...
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by huac on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:35PM (#20045784)
like any other entrenched monopolist, Plaid shouldn't want OFX to make it easier for new entrants to enter. Building something to interact with OFX is easier than building a scraper.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by sschueller on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @11:45AM (#20041512)
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by ChrisSD on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @01:09PM (#20042710)
https://blog.plaid.com/aisp/

They are PSD2 compliant which means they're using the Open Banking API I linked to in my other comment.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by fortytw2 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @12:01PM (#20041802)
There's legitimately no alternative, "secure" way to access someone's banking data other than by asking for a username/password and then 'impersonating' them / asking for 2FA codes etc etc. As a commenter on the issue says, there is no oauth-esque mechanism implemented by banks.

I think plaid is the lesser evil when compared to rolling all of that on your own for N different banking institutions.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by ChrisSD on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @12:51PM (#20042475)
Have you read about https://www.openbanking.org.uk/

The nine largest banks and building societies are required to participate. Many others do so voluntarily.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by novok on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:03PM (#20043389)
If I was plaid, I would use things like open banking if it's available, because it cost less to implement and maintain than the current html scraping norm we have now.

I'm guessing plaid uses oauth & open banking when available, and falls back to scraping when it's not.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by weberc2 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:03PM (#20043385)
What percentage of the world's banks are covered? Or perhaps what percentage of the world's population banks in those covered institutions? Or perhaps what percentage of the total banked wealth (terminology?) is held in covered institutions?
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by ChrisSD on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:12PM (#20043482)
On an article titled "Plaid Launches in the UK" I would assume the most relevant territory is "the UK".

But if instead the question is "what's the alternative" the answer is "government intervention" as shown by the UK.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by weberc2 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:34PM (#20043728)
It depends on the audience. Many businesses don't want to restrict themselves exclusively to the subset of UK banks that follow that initiative. And government intervention is hardly a pragmatic solution (how many companies can afford to lobby every government in which they'd like to do business?).
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by Nursie on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:29PM (#20043677)
>> There's legitimately no alternative, "secure" way to access someone's banking data other than by asking for a username/password

Not so true under Open Banking and other systems. Open Banking uses OAUTH2 style stuff, and a variety of certificate schemes (Open Banking's own, and EU ETSI qualified certificates) to allow participants to be delegated various forms of access and roles, in a much more granular way.

>> As a commenter on the issue says, there is no oauth-esque mechanism implemented by banks.

There is in the UK, and PSD2 solutions are rolling out all across the EU. Australia is also getting in on the action.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by fortytw2 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @04:42PM (#20045214)
This is super cool! I was totally unaware of Open Banking.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by anfractuosity on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @12:53PM (#20042509)
I think soon banks may be forced to provide an API - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_banking, not sure how long that'll take though.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by jeandenis on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @01:25PM (#20042903)
Not sure why the downvotes. What he says is true in the US and in Europe Plaid is relying on psd2/open banking.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by Eldt on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:00PM (#20045430)
I feel that until there is a secure way to do it, it shouldn't be done at all
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by SpicyLemonZest on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:44PM (#20045869)
I generally feel that way too, but the US banking system just isn't built for it. It's hard to get too mad at Plaid for spoofing when my checking account's ID number is the only password required for authorizing electronic transfers.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by dbbk on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @01:17PM (#20042803)
That’s ‘legitimately’ not true.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by dmix on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @01:17PM (#20042806)
I don't have anything to say about the product/launch but that homepage is one of the better designs for a marketing website I've design in a while.

The typography on the docs page is excellent: https://plaid.com/docs/quickstart/

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by Silhouette on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @06:09PM (#20046112)
It looks OK if you have your browser set to the default 16px font size. If not, that page might not look good at all, because unfortunately it uses a fixed line-height but keeps the browser-configured font-size.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by dingaling on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:35PM (#20043743)
I found that sans-serif body face to be quite difficult to read; the letters seem too 'fat' or the kerning is slightly too wide, I cannot decide which.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by orliesaurus on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:28PM (#20043665)
What makes you say that?
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by leoc on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @01:12PM (#20042738)
In the UK, 'Plaid', capitalised and in writing, usually refers to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaid_Cymru . It's not pronounced the same as 'plaid' though.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by ChrisSD on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @01:36PM (#20043037)
Yes this link was not what I initially expected. My first thought was that Plaid Cymru was expanding to the whole of the UK, not just Wales.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by hnzix on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @08:46PM (#20047279)
My first thought was that Plaid launched in the UK a long long time ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaid_(band)
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by sgt101 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:33PM (#20043714)
Interesting to understand what you imagined the objectives of such an expansion would be?
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by twic on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @04:42PM (#20045220)
The Irish Nationalist Party once got an MP elected in Liverpool:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._P._O%27Connor

In that case, the objective was to argue for home rule for Ireland. And to look out for the large Irish community in Liverpool.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by toby- on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:37PM (#20043759)
Welsh expansionism; the Welshmen need Lebensraum.

Joking aside, I also read the title as referring to Plaid Cymru and was very confused.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by vidarh on Thursday May 30, 2019 @07:11AM (#20050023)
A lot of people in England has long pleaded with the SNP to stand in English seats rather than just Scotland, because of their other views, so it would not be so strange to see one of the other "regional" parties decide to try to increase their influence by standing throughout the UK.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by sideshowb on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:26PM (#20045678)
From what I gather, green policies and opposition to austerity are higher up on the Plaid agenda than Welsh independence right now, so the objective of your hypothetical expansion would pretty much be to duplicate the green party.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by NeedMoreTea on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @07:14PM (#20046716)
Independence for, or expansion into, ancient Northumbria and Mercia perhaps?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercia

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by Graham24 on Thursday May 30, 2019 @05:20AM (#20049563)
I thought it was about a remake of Dead Men Don't Need Plaid.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by jsty on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @01:51PM (#20043237)
I think the Scots might object to assuming the entirety of the UK makes precisely that association:

http://www.tartansauthority.com/highland-dress/modern/flypla...

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by vidarh on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @01:52PM (#20043261)
Capitalised? I'd be surprised.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by leoc on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:02PM (#20045451)
Exactly.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by arethuza on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @03:24PM (#20044284)
Well I'm Scots and when I hear 'plaid' I think of the colour from 'A Deepness In the Sky'. ;-)
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by sideshowb on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:27PM (#20045689)
I think of rest proof clockwork.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @06:07PM (#20046101)
I'm en-gb native and I pronounce both of those pretty close to "played" though in the case of the political party it's quite near to "plied" too, think "played" but in a Brum accent.

"Plad" [ie tartan-y cloth] is USA pronounciation to me; which I assume is what you mean in your second sentence?

"Played" of course also means "to be conned".

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by DonaldFisk on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @07:10PM (#20046691)
It's from the Gaelic word "plaide" which rhymes approximately with "badger" in most English accents, and means blanket. "plad" is the preferred pronunciation of the English loan word. English spelling is a mess, so mistakes are understandable.

"Plaid" in "Plaid Cymru" is pronounced like "plied" in English.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by benj111 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:20PM (#20043578)
I thought they were both pronounced 'plad'?

Is Plaid Cymru pronounced 'Pllad' ;)

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by Nursie on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:25PM (#20043625)
'Plyed' AFAICT. At least that's how they always say it on the TV.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by benj111 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:31PM (#20043695)
I did go to check this and you are right, I am from the UK, so should really know, I guess I just auto (in)corrected the non English pronunciation?
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by fauigerzigerk on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:02PM (#20043372)
Doesn't Open Banking (https://www.openbanking.org.uk) make this sort of middleman unnecessary in the UK?
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by djhworld on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @04:04PM (#20044733)
Normal people can't just hit their bank for an APi key, it's designed for regulated third party services and banks to have a common API to talk to each other that has to comply with the spec (I think, at least this is my understanding of it anyway)

note: I'm aware some of the challenger banks here (Starling etc) have a developer API, but that's their own offering

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by celticninja on Thursday May 30, 2019 @08:36AM (#20050506)
Open Banking means you can access your own banks API, however if you have a lot of customers and you need to access lots of different APIs from different banks then you use an intermediary 3rd party, e.g TrueLayer and you use their API to access the open banking API of the customers bank.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by fauigerzigerk on Thursday May 30, 2019 @12:42PM (#20053083)
I don't think that's entirely correct. Open Banking means that all participating banks allow access via the same API, which is documented here:

https://openbanking.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/DZ/pages/16320...

The biggest UK banks have a legal obligation to participate and many smaller ones are participating as well.

I can see why a third party API gateway would still be useful internationally though.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by Brakenshire on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:16PM (#20043525)
It could provide a useful shared API for all the countries it covers. I also think there's a non-trivial certification process which would be onerous for a small startup.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by chrisseaton on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @01:36PM (#20043048)
Plaid is how most people refer to Plaid Cymru, a Welsh nationalist political party, in the UK.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by subhero on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:31PM (#20043694)
And to me as a continental european, Plaid always triggers https://youtu.be/LU8seZlfhw4

;)

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by jeandenis on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @11:13AM (#20041117)
Would love to hear from HNers in Europe (and elsewhere) which countries Plaid should go to next!

And also what the biggest pain points are to building fintechs in other markets.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by Nursie on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:47PM (#20045909)
Presuming you are from Plaid - can you tell me what your position is on what I think I'm seeing - OpenBanking APIs opened up to non-accredited organisations using yourselves as a gateway - and whether that's in keeping with your accreditation?

I.E. The APIs available in the UK are designed to open data up to competition, but only within the limits of those orgs that are FCA accredited for PSD2 Roles of various sorts. Are you allowed to let others piggyback on those?

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by JAlexoid on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:51PM (#20043919)
Places where banking APIs are not mandated by regulation authorities.

EU is an easy target.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by dan1234 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:57PM (#20043995)
Looks interesting but there doesn’t seem to be al list of supported banks?

Pretty happy with Truelayer (https://truelayer.com) but more competition is always better.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by segah on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:14PM (#20045578)
Am I missing something or have Yodlee and Intuit account aggregation have provided this service now for more than a decade?
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by rahimnathwani on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @11:09PM (#20048019)
Plaid has registered as an AISP ('Account Information Service Provider'), which means that they can register for and use the Open Banking APIs provided by UK banks.

These APIs use an authorisation flow similar to what you see when you 'Login with Google' or 'Login with Facebook'. At some point in that flow, you are redirected to your bank's web site to allow access, and to select the account(s) for which you are allowing access. At this point, you are on your bank's web site, you can check the URL to make sure you're not being phished.

On the face of it, it seems like any company that's building on top of bank transaction data should just register as an AISP themselves, as the integration with Open Banking APIs doesn't look that complicated. But Plaid is one of a number of third parties that insert themselves in between.

In general these services suggest some combination of (i) easier integration, i.e. less development and maintenance, (ii) additional intelligence on top of the raw data, e.g. categorisation of transactions, (iii) no need for maintenance.

There's one obvious con: the AISP's logo has to be shown in the authorisation flow. So, even if your users know you, they might not be willing to share their information with 'Plaid' or whichever third party AISP you've chosen.

I don't know how real the development/maintenance/integration issues are. I could imagine that registering with 30+ banks and testing your code against all of them might be a hassle. But if their API backends all behave in the same way, then maybe you just need configuration parameters for the endpoint and token(s). If their backends have slightly different behaviour, though, then perhaps you need to branch your code based on the bank.

One thing that's encouraging about Plaid entering this space: their free tier appears to support up to 100 bank accounts for free. This should be enough for anyone who wants to set up their own self-hosted Mint equivalent. And, if all the accounts are in the UK, then you're giving Plaid just read-only access to your accounts, which is much less of an issue than providing your login credentials to them or another party.

In case you're curious to see which other companies have registered as AISPs or PSPs (payment service providers), the full list of third party providers is available here: https://www.openbanking.org.uk/provider-categories/third-par...

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by fyfy18 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @01:35PM (#20043028)
Anyone know how this compares to Teller (https://teller.io/)?
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by Nursie on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:31PM (#20043697)
Teller is a system which relies on screen scraping and taking your passwords (AFAICT, though the comment below says they use the mobile APIs, it's much the same regardless).

In the UK this is no longer necessary and FCA accredited organisations (Or qualified organisations from across the EU) can gain access to Bank APIS which allow much easier, programmatic access with much more granular access and far fewer security implications.

IIRC teller have also been subject to blocking and possible lawsuits from various banks for their scraping activities and are not well liked in the industry.

(--edit-- I am rate limited here so cannot respond below, just to say that if OB APIs are not performant, that'll likely be down to the participating banks. I would expect them to improve over time.

I'm not trying to say teller is illegal - I doubt very much that it would have survived this long if it were illegal - simply that the security model is not so great and the banks don't like it and continue to try to block it. 'Stevie' would probably do well to get himself accredited before the banks find a way to keep him out permanently.)

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by lol768 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:58PM (#20044012)
Stevie does address some of the legal side in a comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14606475

>In the UK this is no longer necessary and FCA accredited organisations (Or qualified organisations from across the EU) can gain access to Bank APIs which allow much easier, programmatic access with much more granular access and far fewer security implications.

I don't have a horse in this race, but in my experience the Open Banking APIs are:

* Not performant

* Poor at handling and reporting errors

* Limited in their functionality

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by knotty66 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:37PM (#20043756)
Teller does not use screen scraping. They reverse engineer each banks mobile APIs.
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by orliesaurus on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:27PM (#20043648)
Would also like to know! Teller is dope, not sure how Plaid works in NA?!
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by SifJar on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:11PM (#20043474)
Is there a list of supported UK banks anywhere?
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by gertrunde on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @03:51PM (#20044591)
They are leveraging the Open Banking API, which the nine biggest banks are legally required to support.

The Open Banking website lists 34 banks that currently support it.

Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by unfunco on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:04PM (#20043393)
Da iawn! bendigedig!
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by dx7tnt on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @04:18PM (#20044894)
You should launch in Wales: Plaid Cymru!
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by bad_name_throw on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:17PM (#20043533)
Same name as a nationalism party in Britain - not going to be popular with a lot of people...
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by sgt101 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:38PM (#20043772)
Plaid Cymru are unlikely to stir negative associations with anyone in Britain. They are no menace to democracy!
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by bad_name_throw on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:44PM (#20043836)
Nationalism doesn't have a great track record...
Re:Plaid Launches in the UK by sgt101 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:19PM (#20045625)
I think that Welsh independence would probably not be optimal, but I am pretty confident that it wouldn't be malign.