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Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by jurassic on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:04AM (#19999147)
I visited Spain last year after studying the language seriously for several years; overtourism spoiled many of my experiences. I literally fled a cathedral in Granada because the crush of bodies was giving me a claustrophobic panic attack. From my perspective as an independent traveler, the guided busloads are the most obnoxious because they do everything in unison. If you also want to do the thing the 250 bus-people are all doing right now, forget about it.

Sad to see the same thing happening on Everest. If I saw that line, I would immediately turn around.

When I was younger I thought travel was important to me. But after doing it a bit, I've realized travel isn't what I thought it was. It isn't that exciting and it's not some kind of achievement, other than the achievement of having enough disposable income to make it happen. The people who create things worth visiting--whether that's art or food or buildings or whatever--are people staying where they are and investing in their communities. I want to be one of those people, not the rich jerks taking up space and contributing nothing to the scene.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by TelmoMenezes on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:47AM (#19999364)
In my experience, it is incredibly mind-expanding to live for some time in another country (or countries). Really live there, have a job, rent a house, make friends, etc. It is a process of detribalization, that can help you understand better who you are, what part of you is just an artifact of the culture you were brought up in, which parts you like to keep and which parts you would like to revise.

Not less importantly, it gives you empathy for "the other". It makes you understand how similar we all are at the core and, paradoxically, how diverse our behaviors and viewpoints can be. And it makes it harder and harder to believe that you, specifically, were born in the place with the correct behaviors and the correct viewpoint.

Tourism is a farce. I guess it gives you the social status points of going through a challenge, without actually facing any difficulties or learning anything. You can have your photo in front of the Eiffel Tower, or that cute Buddhist Temple, or whatever. Maybe use that super expensive camera you bought as a toy (god forbid you use it to do something different, something that hasn't been done before by one million people just that week).

Tourism itself is a paradox: its gaze destroys the very thing it wants to look at. The Ramones could no longer rent an apartment in Brooklyn. Struggling painters could most certainly not afford to live in Paris these days, Montmartre or otherwise. Punk Rock in London? Only if you have a banking job on the side... The old ladies who sang fado from windows in old Lisbon neighborhoods had to move to the suburbs, because Madonna arrived with her entourage and every rich kid wants a piece of that "genuine" action on their Instragram.

Be a traveler, not a tourist!

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by adriand on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:16AM (#20000063)
I understand this perspective but I feel like it's unnecessarily negative. I certainly agree with you that living in another country would be a unique and mind-expanding experience, but not everyone has this opportunity (or takes it when it is possible). When I was unencumbered by a family 20 years ago, traveling simply wasn't a priority for me. My focus was on getting by and trying to get a foothold in the tech industry.

Now that I've got two kids and a high-pressure job, tourism is how I expose myself and my kids to other cultures and experiences. It is possible to do it right by keeping an open mind and not being "those people". I'll relate one anecdote.

A couple of years ago we went to Panama and stayed in Panama City for a week before heading to the coast. While in the city we read about Amazon jungle tours. Not wanting to end up on a bus with a bunch of people, one night I headed out to a nearby square and started chatting up people with the limited but decent Spanish I've managed to learn over the past few years. I met a friendly restauranteur, explained that we wanted to head up to the jungle, and asked if he knew anyone who could take us.

Next morning we all crammed into a pickup truck driven by an incredibly vivacious and chatty Panamanian woman (the restauranteur's cousin) and roared off to the jungle. The trip included memorable moments such as the part where a long, remote bridge was shut down to car traffic, forcing us to leave the truck by the side of the road and hike across in brutal heat. On arriving at the other side, seeing how exhausted my kids were, she told us to wait under a tree and took off. Twenty minutes later she rolled up in a minivan, which she had borrowed from a fellow Panamanian (a total stranger) who had agreed to lend it to us, free of charge, for the afternoon. She explained that she had a guardian angel that helped her arrange such things.

We were tourists, 100%. But my whole family learned a lot from the experience.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by dagw on Friday May 24, 2019 @04:19AM (#19999533)
Be a traveler, not a tourist!

When you do it it's "tourism" when I do it it's "travelling". When you're visiting a place for a shorter period of time primarily for leisure, you're a tourist. Sure you can tourist in more or less intrusive ways, but just accept the label and move on.

the Ramones could no longer rent an apartment in Brooklyn. Struggling painters could most certainly not afford to live in Paris these days...

None of which has anything to do with tourism.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by chongli on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:37AM (#20000801)
None of which has anything to do with tourism.

On the contrary. Tourism is a major driving force behind the large scale conversion of long term rentals into hotels via Airbnb.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by robben1234 on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:03AM (#20000991)
Long term rentals require much lower level of attention to tenants. If owners are okay with switching from long term to short term and servicing their property, I don't see a problem here. It just means they didn't have an opportunity to enter hotel business before, despite having means and desire.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by tim333 on Friday May 24, 2019 @04:51AM (#19999711)
It's more down to what you do than if it's me or them. Doing stuff the locals do is not tourist. Queueing to take photos of the changing of the guard or that kind of stuff is touristy.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by notahacker on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:11AM (#20000042)
It has to be said that visiting tourist attractions often has much to recommend it over "doing stuff the locals do", which often entails pretty mundane experiences like going to the mall and eating at McDonalds...
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by zerocool4 on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:25AM (#20000735)
Well, interesting note, because on the last trip in Sri Lanks I was in just another Buddhist temple, and I remember almost nothing of it. But then I was eating in a McDonalds nearby, and it was a really interesting. They had totally different menu and tastes, chairs and tables, peoples and ads, also no WC so I found it only at horse race track nearby. Not a mundane experience in any way. Churches, temples and mountain views are all the same after a while. Small details in everyday people's life always different and makes yourself to take a fresh look at your daily life.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by dagw on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:44AM (#20000855)
As much as I enjoy seeing local 'must-see' sights of a place, I have to admit that seeing what a local mall and grocery store looks like is every bit as interesting.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by dagw on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:46AM (#20000192)
Queueing to take photos of the changing of the guard or that kind of stuff is touristy.

Which part do you oppose the most? The queuing, the photo taking, or the finding of the changing of the guards an amusing spectacle worth seeing once in your life. If there's no queue and I don't take any pictures, is it still "touristy"?

The bottom line is that most "touristy" stuff became touristy because it was a kind of cool/unique/fun/interesting thing to see/do. I agree that if there's a long queue you have to balance how much time you want to spend against the value of the thing you'll see.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by tim333 on Friday May 24, 2019 @12:24PM (#20003097)
I'm not opposing anything. I'm happy enough for people to do touristy stuff and do it myself sometimes.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by LaGrange on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:11AM (#20000296)
> Which part do you oppose the most?

The one where you lift property prices so high that nobody can live in the city centres anymore.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by dagw on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:18AM (#20000333)
The tourists waiting to see the changing of the guards are not driving London property prices.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by LaGrange on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:46AM (#20001382)
They definitely do in Amsterdam, and in London that might be different purely because y'all have an even bigger mess on other fronts, somehow.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by badpun on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:34AM (#20000139)
> Doing stuff the locals do is not tourist.

Dictionary definition of a tourist: "One who travels for pleasure.".

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by thisone on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:14AM (#20000663)
Only because Londoners in the area 1) see it happen all the time and 2) already took the same photos when they were young.

This local goes the same places the tourists do because the UK is beautiful and the foreign tourists I meet have good taste ;)

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by topmonk on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:31AM (#20000125)
Maybe vacationer would be a better term. You certainly aren't a traveler. You're not wandering around a place to travel somewhere. Just attempting to find enjoyable and rewarding experiences. In that sense you are quite like a tourist, and in the local's minds you probably are also about the same.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by lagadu on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:10AM (#20000288)
This is gatekeeping and bullshit one at that. I travel because it's an activity that I find enjoyable, just like I find many others. That's all the justification anyone ever needs.

In comparison, I also move to a new country every ~2.5 years on average because I get bored of the place I live in after a while, and that does nothing to reduce the enjoyment I get from traveling to new places.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by distant_hat on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:17AM (#20000067)
That's an incredibly first world look at the world. If you are, say, from India, any kind of foreign travel involves visa hurdles, questions regarding your exact itinerary and purpose and who you will meet. Any longer than touristy stays will be looked at with extreme suspicion. Working is completely out of the question the vast majority of the times.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by uwagan on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:20AM (#20000345)
he talks to the first world. we from the 3rd world thought we were included too.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by badpun on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:25AM (#20000104)
> In my experience, it is incredibly mind-expanding to live for some time in another country (or countries). Really live there, have a job, rent a house, make friends, etc. It is a process of detribalization, that can help you understand better who you are, what part of you is just an artifact of the culture you were brought up in, which parts you like to keep and which parts you would like to revise.

I did that, and it didn't "enlighten" me much. I think it may be because I was already very aware, thanks to Internet and the media industry, of an American culture, which is very different from my own, so I already had a good basis for comparison.

> Tourism is a farce. I guess it gives you the social status points of going through a challenge, without actually facing any difficulties or learning anything.

I never do tourism stuff (not out of snobbishness, I am just not that interested), but my aunt does, and to her, it's just a best use of her 10 days a year of vacation that she gets. She's working 6 days a week for less than a minimum wage, so the last thing she wants is a "challenge" really - I'm impressed that she does not go get lay on a beach somewhere and just regenerate, but prefers being bussed around Europe.

> Struggling painters could most certainly not afford to live in Paris these days, Montmartre or otherwise.

Why is it important for painters to live in Paris? You can paint anywhere and there's plenty of affordable places in the world.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by pmlnr on Friday May 24, 2019 @04:47AM (#19999688)
> Be a traveler, not a tourist!

Please, please, please don't use this phrase. I don't want to be an instagram fueled "traveler" who ends up begging[^1].

[^1]: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4400790/Rise-Wester...

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by blahedo on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:38AM (#20000158)
How odd. Nearly all of those pictures are not of begging, but rather of busking. Which you may also find distasteful but it's a completely different thing.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by pmlnr on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:59AM (#20000241)
"I'm traveling around asia without money please support my trip" - how is this not begging? Also: begging, busking, in this context, no difference.

If you want to travel, have the funds. Why on Earth would I support someone else's trip when I could save that money for my own?!

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by ForHackernews on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:28AM (#20000381)
Busking is playing music for money on the street. Maybe you don't like it, but it's not exactly begging. In other contexts, I assume you're happy to pay to hear live music performed.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by cjhopman on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:54PM (#20006838)
> Nearly all of those pictures are not of begging, but rather of busking.

Of the ten pictures, five of them were busking (and of the five, two to three were pretty damn half-assed).

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by CPLX on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:21AM (#20000085)
This is bullshit. What destroys the punk rock scene somewhere is the fact that punk was a function of a particular place and time, and every generation throws its own heroes up the pop charts.

What is destroying the ability of kids to live in London and Paris is a lot more complex, but has a lot more to do with plutocracy and the rise of moneyed anti democratic forces than tourism.

And as every aging punk rocker knows, the Ramones were from Queens.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by blub on Saturday May 25, 2019 @01:40AM (#20007317)
The problem's not traveling or tourism per se, but rather the huge amounts of people doing these activities.

It would be great for many locations if half of the visitors would simply stay at home.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by titzer on Friday May 24, 2019 @04:22AM (#19999553)
Upvoted.

But,

> Be a traveler, not a tourist!

Please don't make this worse by putting this idea into more heads. Personally I read up on the most popular TV shows and advise everyone to just stay home while I go do (something else).

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by LaGrange on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:16AM (#20000321)
> Be a traveler, not a tourist!

The way you describe "traveling" is actually tourism, just long-form. Read a book if you need to "expand your horizon," or I don't know, follow someone on Twitter.

Like, do you think wealthy expats aren't part of the issue? Sure, AirBnB has accelerated the process, but expat-driven price inflation and gentrification were displacing poor people for years before AirBnB exploded.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by nojvek on Friday May 24, 2019 @12:36PM (#20003204)
“Be a traveler, not a tourist”. Such wise words. Gonna slowly sip this in for the rest of the day.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by kortilla on Friday May 24, 2019 @04:13AM (#19999503)
You can do that by moving any distance that forces you to recreate your social circle (i.e. even 100 miles). You don’t need a language barrier and a currency barrier to force you to reflect. You just need to leave your echo chamber.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by TelmoMenezes on Friday May 24, 2019 @04:31AM (#19999594)
Echo chambers are like Russian Dolls. Maybe you are satisfied with just opening the first one. It's up to you, no right answers!

But it is definitely not the same to move to another city in your own country or go somewhere else where social norms and language are fundamentally different.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by Al-Khwarizmi on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:40AM (#19999323)
Have you tried visiting the north of Spain? I'm from Galicia, in the northwest. Fantastic food, culture, monuments, nature, and no overtourism except perhaps in Santiago de Compostela in the peak season. The same can probably be said about Asturias, Cantabria or León. Most foreign tourists come to Spain attracted by the Mediterranean beaches, sunny climate, and stuff like flamenco or bullfighting, which are southern or eastern Spanish things. The north and northwest are highly underrated (of course I might be biased, but pretty much everyone that comes here from abroad tells me that as well).

Come fast, before the high-speed rail lines connecting Madrid to several cities in the north and northwest are finished in 3-4 years from now. I cannot guarantee the situation will hold after that, my intuition is that bad infrastructure is a major reason for the relatively little attention these areas attract.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by CPLX on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:28AM (#20000112)
Not sure if you’re talking about San Sebastián and the Basque Country but they are far from unknown or underrated. They are, however, absolutely incredible places to visit.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by Al-Khwarizmi on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:37AM (#20000154)
I deliberately excluded the Basque Country because it is better known, and does have some overtourism problems (indeed amazing places, though!)
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by FabHK on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:45AM (#20000501)
Asturias is fascinating, and, as you said, does not conform to stereotypes about Spain at all. Except, well, the food is as delicious as elsewhere in Spain :-)
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by clydethefrog on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:36AM (#20000792)
I am happy to hear this - I will be visiting Gijón next month. Maybe a bit off topic, but do you have any recommendations?
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by Iv on Friday May 24, 2019 @04:39AM (#19999647)
Advice that is likely to work in most European places: know when is the tourist season. Visit famous places when it is not. During the tourist seasons, there are no shortage of very interesting places outside the crowded ones.

Vaux-le-Vicomte, which was the model for Versailles, is virtually unknown and a really nice visit. When crowd traffic jams happen in front of Mona Lisa in the Louvres, the medieval art sections, two stories above, are almost deserted despite very interesting pieces. Everybody wants to see Notre Dame, but there are about 100 monumental cathedrals in France.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by yifanl on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:16AM (#20000060)
The problem with any advice to avoid the tourist crowds is that it doesn't scale. If everyone avoids tourist season, then you've just made tourist season year-round ;)
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by drukenemo on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:31AM (#20000410)
Not really, as many people are tied to school summer break schedules, especially families.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by Iv on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:13AM (#20001709)
Not really. Dilute a crowd of 1000 during two weeks in a whole year and you suddenly get down to 40 people on average. Totally different experience.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by yifanl on Friday May 24, 2019 @12:30PM (#20003156)
Peak tourist season is more like 2 months, and its not like the streets are totally dead in the rest of the year.

If we let T (tourists/day in peak season) = 3t(tourists/day in regular season), then we have about 1.3t if it all smooths out.

Of course, depends on where you travel, but the places I've visited have been pretty busy in the off-season already, adding another 30% of them would be pretty hectic.

New startup idea: modelling the ideal time to take a trip somewhere within certain metrics.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by RhodesianHunter on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:18AM (#20000072)
Notre-Dame in Reims is incredible, and you get to enjoy plenty of good champagne while you're there.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by Iv on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:12AM (#20001693)
I was reading Amber the first time I visited Chartres. Of course I walked through the maze :-)
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by daemin on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:22AM (#20000091)
Thank you for that recommendation! I knew about the Louvre where people crowd around the small painting but there's so many other things to see. Did not think about finding an alternative for Versailles.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by pjc50 on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:48AM (#20000206)
Similarly, Pompeii is overcrowded while Herculaneum is merely averagely busy and Villa Poppaea is deserted. All within a short drive of each other at Naples.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by PuffinBlue on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:01AM (#20000247)
And you can go further afield for a similar experience:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrenchiemsee

I've been there, it's pretty amazing, shame he ran out of money to finish it off!

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by grkvlt on Saturday May 25, 2019 @10:52AM (#20009378)
Well, there's not a choice anymore - everyone HAS to go and see those other hundred monumental cathedrals, after Notre Dame went up in flames a month ago...
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by DonHopkins on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:10AM (#19999171)
It even goes meta. There are coffeeshops in Amsterdam that guided tour groups regularly pass by outside to stare in the front window and observe other tourists smoking weed.

Maybe the answer to sex tourists in the Red Light District is sex tourist tourists who rudely point and take photos.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by fouronnes3 on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:26AM (#19999248)
This is a great idea for a comic in the style of smbc. First two panels are your comment, the second panel is "Pretty soon the meta-tourism got out of hand" <drawing of a tourist^5>. The final panel is the entire human population as a directed acyclic graph of tourists^n, and a small group named "the resistance" is looking for the single "tourist zero" a.k.a tourist^0 so they can murder him and end the tourist singularity.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by jboggan on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:58AM (#19999421)
I'd read this book.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by 4e1a on Friday May 24, 2019 @04:02AM (#19999449)
I read "smbc" as "xkcd" and immediately aggreed with your comment.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by saagarjha on Friday May 24, 2019 @04:39AM (#19999643)
This style is much more in line with what SMBC writes.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by ctrager on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:31AM (#20001918)
Thank you for introducing me to smbc. I kept hitting the "RANDOM" comic button and hit this one, which is meta like the speculative one: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2015-01-28
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by dsfyu404ed on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:55AM (#20000571)
The topic is more SMBC. Both XKCD and SMBC routinely do X^absurd type comics.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by pizzabearman on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:29AM (#19999265)
Travelling doesn't mean having to visit all the tourist sites. You can travel anywhere and get a much more genuine experience by not going every tourists destination. You will have such a better experience. Especially like in your case if you studied/know the local language.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by nexuist on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:39AM (#19999322)
Yes, I feel like it's a bit selfish (no malice intended towards the parent poster) to complain about tourists being everywhere when you yourself are a tourist who also wants to see the sights. Obviously you're not going to be the only person in the world who wants to see something cool in a foreign country.

I think you're spot on. Consider the tourist-y American cities - New York, Boston, LA, Chicago, SF, etc. - most of the city dwellers have no care for the tourists because they don't spend all of their time next to attractions. They go to work, they go to school, they go to parks, etc. All of these are different in different places, and worth looking at themselves! It doesn't need to be on a brochure or part of a guided tour to be rich with history and purpose. And often, venturing out from the "golden path" leads to a healthy dose of reality (valuable!) when you see how normal people operate outside of the tourists spots.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by CPLX on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:32AM (#20000131)
I have lived in downtown Brooklyn for about 20 years. I live in Brooklyn Heights and my company is in Dumbo, and I walk by the Brooklyn Bridge on the way to work every day.

There used to be a handful of adventurous tourists who would walk across from Manhattan and look around. Now the Brooklyn waterfront is on every single visitor’s wish list and it’s packed with people and selfie-taking nonstop, and almost overwhelming during busy summer periods.

I think it’s great. The Brooklyn Bridge and the skyline are stunning and I feel lucky to have this view every day and I’m glad more people are getting to see it. When I go visit the places they live and look at their great views I don’t feel bad about that either.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by usrusr on Friday May 24, 2019 @04:49AM (#19999701)
That's pretty much how I do tourism: go to a high tourism city/region (where the local culture has already learnt how to deal with it), then ruthlessly demote every popular "must see" to a "might see" and see what else is there. Some "must sees" will still be visited, but in a purely opportunistic manner. Turns out the colosseum isn't a complete waste of time if you randomly passed by at a time when there wasn't any queue at all, but if that does not happen there's no shortage of other things to see.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by 2sk21 on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:18AM (#20000690)
We have a Jeffrey Koons original in the lobby of my office building in New York so I'm very used to winding my way through tourists to get to the elevators :-)
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by wallace_f on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:59AM (#19999428)
You could try intentionally visiting places in off-season. I've spent years travelling the globe on a budget, and I've learned this. You can travel even in the most expensive places like Japan for 10-30$/day if you know how to do it, and still have most every experience you want to have except for conspicuous consumption.

I actually do agree with you that travelling has a lot or drawbacks--and I never would have travelled for this long if I wasn't a refugee running from bad things--but when I read someone say they gave up on it, it makes me sad. It has been an enlightening and beautiful part of my life.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by TomK32 on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:11AM (#19999172)
A Chinese company recently invaded Switzerland with 12 thousand of its employees. It's just made. I'm happy the little valley I come from is still ignored by the masses despite a long and mixed history with tourism.

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/schweiz-chinesen-1.4454...

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by anc84 on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:41AM (#19999335)
If you even have to use such rhetoric, at least get it right. These people were invited by the US company Jeunesse Global. Says so in your link.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by arien on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:41AM (#20000480)
Sometimes you have to trade up some part of the experience to be able to enjoy it. I travel by cruise (and trains) a lot, but I do mostly on small ships and off season. It's cheaper and I get to avoid the masses. It's very enjoyable and has its own perks.

I spent a month in Japan a few years ago, at the beginning of the year instead of the Golden Week when everybody goes and visited all over the place. No queues, no massive amounts of people (well, Tokyo is Tokyo), no stress. Sure, I missed the famous cherry blossoms, but to be able to visit e.g. Himeji castle and be in a room almost by myself contemplating was worth it. Had many experiences like this everywhere. I really enjoyed that trip and left feeling that Japan was even better than I imagined.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by telesilla on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:47AM (#20000197)
If you want to enjoy the kind of travel that a generation ago was possible, you have to do a little more effort and seek out those beautifully hidden places that the entire world doesn't know about yet. It's worth the hunt.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by throw0101a on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:52AM (#20000220)
> [...] little more effort and seek out those beautifully hidden places that the entire world doesn't know about yet.

And then keep your mouth shut, as well as not post any pictures or videos publicly.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by csomar on Friday May 24, 2019 @05:40AM (#19999931)
Most of the world is unexplored by tourists. Your comments are only valid for "some" touristy hot spots. If you like tourism, stop focusing on the mainstream. The Philippine, for example, has lots of unexplored territories that are "accessible" (relatively speaking) and has pretty much no or very little tourists.

I was in some small town in the Philippine last year. Got into a pizza restaurant and there was a mini-event the locals made where they danced and singed. That's some genuine experience. You can have lots of these because most people are going with the flow.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by hibbelig on Friday May 24, 2019 @04:58AM (#19999734)
> Sad to see the same thing happening on Everest. If I saw that line, I would immediately turn around.

Unfortunately, in this picture, turning around meant to go back up, towards the summit.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by voidmain0001 on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:00AM (#20000603)
If you want to flex your language muscles but still get an interesting cultural and historical experience try the less popular Central American countries like Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador or Nicaragua. I lived in HN for 3 years, and if you avoid the island of Roatan you will be fine. Of course, the majority of Central Americans fleeing to the USA right now are from Guatemala and Honduras so buyer beware.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by pjc50 on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:46AM (#20000194)
We could really do with better words to distinguish between "wanting to go to a place or have an experience because someone else has done it", "wanting to do X in order to show it off to other people", and "wanting to do X in order to bring about a change in yourself" - because the latter in order to be authentic has to be genuinely unique.

Travel can broaden the mind, but only if you let it, and most of the ways in which it does are through giving you unexpected things, good or bad. The more tightly you plan, or buy a package in order to remove uncertainty, the less serendipity you get. You can't order a surprise for yourself.

Given this philosophy, I felt bad about allowing a tour company to plan my South American trip rather than booking dozens of transfers myself, but in the end serendipity worked anyway and somehow we ended up with two of us on an itinerary clearly designed for larger groups. Speeding across Lake Titicaca on a catamaran to ourselves remains a peak experience. Later on we got to Machu Picchu, which really is reaching critical levels of self-destructive tourism: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/may/15/archaeologist...

(There is also something to be said for both straightforward hedonism and the "precision relaxation" of people who go to the same hotel for 20 years to order the same drinks, but neither of those really needs or deserves to be allowed to ruin a local community or natural wonder in order to make it happen.)

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by CaptainZapp on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:30AM (#20000402)
Given this philosophy, I felt bad about allowing a tour company to plan my South American trip rather than booking dozens of transfers myself

If you're very lucky you can wind up with the best of both worlds.

I've been on an organized three week trip to Peru, which was nothing short of mind blowing.

The thing is that my sister in law is Peruvian, owns a house in Lima, worked at the presidents palace (which we were able to visit on short notice) and has a lot of friends and family around the country.

So while she had some of things organized (you partially must. You can't spontaneously visit Machu Pichu [which was a bit of a disappointment, but I digress]). But she had those parts, which needed to be pre-planned organized by local travel agents and tour operators. Obviously, knowing the language, the people and the place was extremely valuable for that.

So, despite that it was essentially a "package tour" it felt like totally individualized travel.

While some of the elements certainly can be booked as part of a packaged tour I don't think it could have been done with such quality and insight without the local knowledge.

Another thing, which I found can be immensly valuable is hiring a local guide. A guide and car in Siem Reap (Cambodia) hit me with about 30$ a day (& tip). Sure, you can visit Angkor Wat by booking a tuk tuk, buy a guide book and head off on you own. But you'll have to make sense of a temple installation scattered around 400 km/2 on your own.

Having a guide on my side opens doors to places, which I would never have been able to do on my own. Let alone of getting all the background on country, poeple and (yes) politics.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by DEADBEEFC0FFEE on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:57AM (#19999411)
With regards to your disenchantment with travel, that's a pretty unusual band interesting perspective. Thank you.

Probably the true value of travel is not what you go to see, but the new knowledge and reflection about where you came from.

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by spanxx on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:47AM (#19999365)
The same can be said for all famous cities during tourist season. Now, I assure you that if you go there on November (for example), most places aren't going to be much crowded.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by retube on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:16AM (#20000675)
> If I saw that line, I would immediately turn around.

Not if you were £30k in the hole for the trip!

Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by darth_skywalker on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:35AM (#20001271)
It isn't rational to base decisions off of sunk costs.
Re:When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean by openfuture on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:39AM (#20000466)
Clearly you have never hitchhiked across a continent.

Tourism is a plague but travel will always be a significant human experience.