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Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by danielecook on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @05:51PM (#19267633)
We need more buttons. What is the deal with flat design these days? I cannot figure out where to click. Have you used Windows 10 recently or a trendy website lately? It's a disaster in terms of UX.

The same problem exists with hardware as well. I'm specifically thinking of the kitchen, but I've encountered it in many places. I recently moved into an apartment with 'modern' appliances have substituted buttons for flat surfaces you press or knobs that are difficult and unintuitive. For the first time - I had to read the manual to figure out how to work my refrigerator, range, and microwave.

Buttons are intuitive, easy to use, and when they do not work it becomes apparent that something is broken or faulty. Why are we getting rid of them?

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by ihuman on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:11PM (#19267755)
Steve Jobs answered this question back in 2007[0]

> Now, why do we need a revolutionary user interface. Here’s four smartphones, right? Motorola Q, the BlackBerry, Palm Treo, Nokia E62 — the usual suspects. And, what’s wrong with their user interfaces? Well, the problem with them is really sort of in the bottom 40 there. It’s this stuff right there. They all have these keyboards that are there whether or not you need them to be there. And they all have these control buttons that are fixed in plastic and are the same for every application. Well, every application wants a slightly different user interface, a slightly optimized set of buttons, just for it.

> And what happens if you think of a great idea six months from now? You can’t run around and add a button to these things. They’re already shipped. So what do you do? It doesn’t work because the buttons and the controls can’t change. They can’t change for each application, and they can’t change down the road if you think of another great idea you want to add to this product.

> Well, how do you solve this? Hmm. It turns out, we have solved it. We solved in computers 20 years ago. We solved it with a bit-mapped screen that could display anything we want. Put any user interface up. And a pointing device. We solved it with the mouse. We solved this problem. So how are we going to take this to a mobile device? What we’re going to do is get rid of all these buttons and just make a giant screen.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN4U5FqrOdQ&t=323

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by northwest65 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:51PM (#19268650)
He was wrong then, and he's wrong now. We know he is wrong because computers operate fine with 101 key keyboards just like they did 30 years ago. The million of applications produced since haven't required a new button on the keyboard every time.

Thankfully some sanity has reigned in car interiors and the manufacturers have realised the benefits to tactile feedback. He might be right when screens can reconfigure themselves with raised sections. Or mind control I guess.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by chumali on Thursday February 28, 2019 @08:33AM (#19271204)
It's all well and good saying he was wrong but the principles he outlines have been largely vindicated by the market.

Many things worked fine 30 years ago and yet have been immeasurably improved since - it's a tempting argument to not fix that which isn't broken, but ultimately a weak one. Also, there is little point in comparing computers, phones and car interiors. Incorporating physical buttons on phones involves a significant trade-off that is not an issue with computers. Car interiors are a different matter entirely. A more appropriate comparison might be conventional TV remotes vs the Apple TV remote. I've found the latter to be much more user friendly and intuitive.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by Tyrek on Thursday February 28, 2019 @10:54AM (#19272199)
> it's a tempting argument to not fix that which isn't broken, but ultimately a weak one.

I'm going to have to call shenanigans on this one. Sure, it's an alright attitude to have towards non-essential parts of your life/consumer experience, but imagine if mission critical stuff (like, flight consoles) changed on a regular basis - that would be completely insane.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by zapzupnz on Thursday February 28, 2019 @02:05PM (#19274079)
Fortunately they don't, and fortunately neither do smartphones. They've been roughly the same for the past 12 years, right around the time people started to actually use them en masse. People are already adept at understanding how to use the on-screen keyboard when it changes, such as when it only requires numerical input, or when filling out an email address it helpfully puts the at symbol on the main screen rather than behind a shortcut, or more recent changes like buttons to suggest filling in a saved password for an app or website. These are barely hardships on the scale of unfamiliar flight controls for experienced pilots.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by thirdsun on Friday March 01, 2019 @06:26AM (#19279593)
Car interiors are a wildly different use case. The safety concerns of operating a flat surface while driving and having to keep one's eyes on the road probably outweigh the benefits of a flexible UI design. In practice, however, the best approach seems to be a hybrid one: Keep basic, important functions physical, tactile, easily and blindly accessable while serving the details on a blank canvas.

For phones and tablets I prefer the giant screen approach.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by zapzupnz on Thursday February 28, 2019 @02:02PM (#19274055)
I feel when people can make such blanket statements about what's right or wrong, they are only thinking about their own use case. Perfect example of what Jobs was talking about: the 101 keyboard works fine for the applications designed around it, but there are plenty of things for which something more optimised is a better fit. The argument about millions of applications not requiring specific buttons is a bit fatuous; there are plenty of examples of times when a physical keyboard could be insufficient for efficiently solving a problem on a smartphone without resorting to inventing a strawman set of millions of applications irrelevant to the specific domain of user input experience. I'll give you one example:

A lot of HN users seem only to write in English. I write in three languages, one of which is very different from the other two. Using one keyboard is possible on a PC, but would make for a lousy experience on a smartphone where the ideal layout for high speed typing in that latter language has nothing to do with the typical keyboard layout. To transplant this language's layout on to a shrunken down imitation of a full keyboard would be a productivity loss. This is a scenario where a physical keyboard on the phone would be a hinderance, not a help.

And that's not even considering many languages that are similar, use the same alphabet, or whatnot. They might be able to get away with the same physical layout, but now the manufacturers have to decide whether to print the legends on or near the keys with the standard US layout, UK layout, French AZERTY layout, and other layouts specific to each region, sometimes at great expense for relatively small markets.

That is if they can fit all the legends in. Some languages will still need a visible set of Roman characters, so not only will the local language's characters be printed on or near the letters, but so will the standard QWERTY layout, taking up valuable physical space, possibly necessitating a smaller phone.

I'm not mentioning what specific language I used that's quicker to type on a keyboard layout other than the standard PC one because it doesn't matter: it is within our capabilities to not have to manufacture a hundred different configurations of physical keyboard for smartphones and tablets for years, long before the arrival of the iPhone and iPad. Nobody needs to know what language it is because it doesn't matter: those who don't even vaguely consider the needs of international audiences as being first class, on the same level as the needs of US English users, don't have even the beginning of an understanding of designing products for international audiences.

The whole /world/ uses smartphones with touch screens. Not just business users, not just executives on meandering lunch breaks with their Blackberries; every day actual people who don't want to be bothered with which SKU to get in order to fully support their language, who don't touch type on regular keyboards let alone tiny ones, children, grandparents, and everything in between.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by Skunkleton on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:43PM (#19267941)
That's cool, but I think that most people here agree that mice are a pretty terrible method of interfacing with a computer. Every time you use a mouse, you have to re-orient your self to the state of the mouse (its current location and its use within a given application). That is why we spend so much time optimizing applications for use with a fixed controller (a keyboard).

A touch screen is a bit better than a mouse for lots of stuff and it preserves the discoverability of a mouse-based UI. Unfortunately it retains the drawbacks of a mouse based ui. Worse is that there is no fixed controller on a smartphone that might allow faster interaction w/ apps. This is where I think we are getting in trouble. In a traditional computer setup, you interact with the mouse when you are learning new software, and eventually transition to using a keyboard more and more. With touch based stuff, it seems like when an app is first released it has a simple, discoverable UI. But over time, as people become comfortable w/ the app, its UI becomes less approachable to suit the needs of more expert users and new users are left behind (snapchat for example).

In my opinion a touch screen is fine for consumptive devices where many different UI elements are required and input is light. Creative devices should have a fixed controller like a keyboard, joystick, etc.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by einr on Thursday February 28, 2019 @07:05AM (#19270747)
That's cool, but I think that most people here agree that mice are a pretty terrible method of interfacing with a computer.

I think mice are excellent, and I think their longevity has proven that people like them, understand well how to use them, and that they are very useful for many computer tasks.

Touchscreens and digitizer tablets and trackballs and all sorts of alternate input methods have existed for thirty years or more, yet they have never broke into the mainstream on desktop computers for anything but niche applications.

The ergonomics and precision of a touchscreen on a desktop or laptop computer are generally abysmal. I can easily move my mouse one pixel at a time when doing graphics work and such with a mouse. Stuff like this is impossible with a touchscreen and big clumsy fingers.

Creative devices should have a fixed controller like a keyboard, joystick, etc.

Or maybe a mouse...

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Thursday February 28, 2019 @08:10AM (#19271057)
Somebody is a webdev who works in a terminal all day.

Mice are great. They can be used for drawing, dragging, context menus, scrolling, and to quickly and precisely select and manipulate distant controls. Those things are significantly more tedious when performed with a keyboard, or require pre-configured hotkeys. The mouse has stuck around for a reason.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by Skunkleton on Thursday February 28, 2019 @01:19PM (#19273596)
Even worse, I am an operating systems dev. But to be specific, I agree that mice are a useful tool for some tasks. But novices use them like a hammer and everything becomes a nail.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by rasz on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:55PM (#19268861)
Want to play an FPS game against me? you will use any combination of keyboard, joystick, touch screen you prefer.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by Skunkleton on Thursday February 28, 2019 @01:37PM (#19273799)
Was that the internet equivalent of a "come at me bro"? My point wasn't that mice aren't useful, it was that UIs shouldn't _only_ use mice. Further, touch screens are in trouble because they are just like mice, but they aren't paired with a fixed controller.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by majewsky on Thursday February 28, 2019 @07:05AM (#19270746)
Better stock up on mice to get through all the FPS games you have to play during a normal workday.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by rasz on Thursday February 28, 2019 @09:26AM (#19271466)
Jokes on you, I was an Esports "athlete" (World of Tanks)! :P
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by devit on Thursday February 28, 2019 @07:41AM (#19270925)
Keyboards are only faster if you have spent the time learning the shortcuts for a specific application.

With a mouse, you can use any application right away with no learning curve, and also interact with the content itself better than with a keyboard.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by Skunkleton on Thursday February 28, 2019 @01:24PM (#19273639)
That is exactly my point. Touch screens don't have the faster thing to fall back on, so apps end up optimizing the touch interface for speed at the expense of discoverability.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by bitwize on Thursday February 28, 2019 @07:06AM (#19270756)
> Every time you use a mouse, you have to re-orient your self to the state of the mouse (its current location and its use within a given application). That is why we spend so much time optimizing applications for use with a fixed controller (a keyboard).

No. This is wrong. The mouse is faster. Apple did that research, too -- and the mouse won every time:

https://asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html

Recognizing and pointing is always faster than remembering command sequences you have to press/type in. It imposes less of a cognitive burden too, which means you can focus more on the task you're doing and less on the interface itself.

Apple absolutely made the right call with a mouse-centric UI in 1984 and they made the right call with touch in 2007. That's why they're Apple -- you don't become the most successful and influential tech company in the world by making stupid choices.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by ams6110 on Thursday February 28, 2019 @07:38AM (#19270910)
No, I can definitely hit Alt-Q to close a window, or Ctrl-k to delete a line of text in emacs, before I even finish reaching for the mouse. I'll buy that some tasks maybe faster with a mouse, but not everything.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by HenryBemis on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:20PM (#19268083)
I remember Wozniak once said that if you wait long enough, what you said will be true.

Apparently he said once (a looooooong time ago) that a mouse is a useless device and nobody would need one. So with the use of the touch-screens mouse use will be reduced.

I have to say that although my laptop does have a very good touch-screen, I still use my mouse for 80% of the actions. Perhaps when browsing or changing windows (to continue browing) I may be using my fingers. But try to select text and change it to Bold on Word, when on the highest possible screen resolution, and well.. you know what happens.

Of course for small portable devices, such as a phone, to write a small note it 'good enough' when using the software keyboard, and the fact that the usual mode on smartphones is 'one-app-at-a-time' displayed on the screen, makes for a simpler UI and UX.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by komali2 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:15PM (#19267780)
> Put any user interface up. And a pointing device. We solved it with the mouse. We solved this problem.

They solved the problem... by putting "exit, maximize, minimize" buttons at the top-right (or top-left) of every window. By putting "file, view, edit" dropdowns at the top-left of ever application. By putting "back, forward, refresh" at the top of the browser.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by mattnewton on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:40PM (#19267924)
Not every application- I don’t see those buttons when dialing a phone number, or when watching a video or playing a game.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by einr on Thursday February 28, 2019 @07:07AM (#19270763)
...and also by still having a keyboard with a fixed and standardized layout, which Jobs' argumentation conveniently ignores. I'd like to see how much of a success the Macintosh would have been with just a mouse ;)
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by Yetanfou on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:21PM (#19268090)
The problem of how to use a fixed set of buttons for a variety of purposes was solved much longer ago by the designers of (military) aeronautical instruments: you put them on the edge of the screen which displays labels next to currently active buttons. You designate a few buttons to have fixed functions - that would be the home, back and switch buttons on Android - and leave the rest to be used by the current application.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by scoot on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:32PM (#19268135)
As used by ATMs. Horrible UX in the age of touch screens. Why is this screen not responding to my touch? Oh, buttons...

And even then they don't align to the on-screen text.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by Yetanfou on Thursday February 28, 2019 @01:42AM (#19269473)
Nothing keeps you from making those labels touch-sensitive 'in the age of touch screens'. That does mean they need to be bigger than necessary and it has the usual problems associated with touch screens - you need to visually locate the touch zone as there is no true haptic feedback - but it is possible.

There is no reason for the screen text not to align to the buttons other than sloppy design.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by frosted-flakes on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:07PM (#19268893)
Like old Nokias. The ones I'm familiar with had two unlabelled buttons at the top of the keypad, with on-screen labels directly above them to signify what they did.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by Yetanfou on Thursday February 28, 2019 @01:46AM (#19269487)
Yes, the system has been used in a limited fashion (two or three buttons on the bottom of the screen) by some manufacturers, Siemens (and their DECT-offspring Gigaset) is another example, as is Philips.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by dithering on Thursday February 28, 2019 @06:55AM (#19270712)
If your purpose is to allow the device to be used when it doesn't have your full attention - like a car radio, for example - I don't think that's a good solution.

I have a phone with a knurled power button, and a smooth flashlight button next to it. It's a minor example, but dynamically remapping those buttons would destroy a lot of their utility for me.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by Yetanfou on Thursday February 28, 2019 @07:43AM (#19270935)
That is false analogy as you're opposing fixed-function devices - lamp and power - to a device which in principle has an unlimited number of functions. Even if it could also contains an unlimited number of buttons this would still not make it usable in situations where the user has to divide his attention between the device and some other task of higher importance like flying the aircraft and keeping sight of the opponent. That is just why they came up with this interface since it combines the advantages of haptic memory - button three on the left side does this in that situation - with unlimited functionality. All that it takes is a sure way to get the device in 'that situation' and a modicum of experience. A touch screen will never have this possibility as the user always needs to look at the screen to guide the digit to the target - unless the whole screen is turned into a single button of course.

Buttons on the side of the screen are not the correct user interface for all activities, as an example they would be inconvenient for browsing the web [1] and useless to sign for delivery of a parcel.

[1] ...but not impossible: number the links on the screen as if they are footnotes, number the buttons on the side, click the button which lies next to the desired number. If there are more links than there are buttons the last button can be used to select the next set of numbers. If there are zillions of links the last two buttons can be used to page through sets of numbers. Inconvenient, maybe, but it would work.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by solatic on Thursday February 28, 2019 @08:24AM (#19271141)
Steve Jobs was only correct in the context of a media consumption device. Having only physical buttons would prevent apps like YouTube from allowing users to select a timeline position to jump to that position in a video clip, and touchscreens are certainly better hardware for games like Bejewelled.

Where he was wrong is that professional use requires muscle memory to build mastery of the tool, and that the flexible nature of touchscreens fundamentally prevent people from developing muscle memory. Professionals derive enormous benefit from fixed-button interfaces that are impediments or limitations for the mass consumer market.

(Automobiles are the main exception to this rule, since they require blind usability, but most consumer products don't require blind usability.)

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by antisthenes on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:37PM (#19268154)
That's great, except it's not even remotely relevant to kitchen appliances.

Those have existed for decades with the same functions and each one of them does a particular task very well. Nor do you do anything on those devices that involves reading a lot of text or watching full screen video where buttons (or UI in general) could get in the way - the polar opposite of smartphones.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by ErikVandeWater on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:15PM (#19268515)
But what if you need to tweet using your smartfridge??

But seriously, you are exactly right. There is no need to retrain the user for no benefit.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by ellard on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:21PM (#19267811)
I think that we've gotten some fantastic UI/UX designs that came from having to work within the limitation of pre-existing controller inputs. You also have the benefit of being able to assume that the user has some level of competency with the controller. Even with Jobs' example, UI/UX on computers generally remains the same within a given ecosystem as changing them forces your users to re-learn things that they already knew how to do. Individual products on that system mostly congregate to using the same patterns too so that they can reap the benefits of users being pre-trained to look for things to perform specific actions.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by neuralRiot on Saturday March 02, 2019 @03:31PM (#19291028)
>And what happens if you think of a great idea six months from now? You can’t run around and add a button to these things.

No, you create a new product with the new buttons and sell something different to your competitors, now all the phones look the same, on top of that you have only 2 Operating systems to choose, there used to be creativity in the design of devices now they cycle from round edges to square and back.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by v_lisivka on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:54PM (#19267972)
But even iPhone have fixed hardware buttons. Why they are not replaced by pixels on the screen? Can you cite?
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by ihuman on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:04PM (#19268013)
They replaced the home button with a digital indicator. You need a physical power button that'll work with the screen off so you can turn the phone on. Physical volume controls allow you to change the volume in your pocket without looking at your screen, and also allow you to force restart the phone. Not sure why the mute switch is still physical, but I don't mind it being physical (although it does get dirty over time).
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by v_lisivka on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:41PM (#19268165)
So, if we need to do something without looking at the screen, we should keep hardware buttons, right? And if we don't need that, if we are looking at the screen _with_ buttons already, then hardware buttons are redundant.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Thursday February 28, 2019 @08:13AM (#19271083)
Except in the case where the stupid thing freezes and you can't interact with it anymore, then you need a physical button to smother it so you can start it back up again.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by nostromo on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:19PM (#19268082)
I'm actually afraid to buy a new car for this very reason.

All of my favorite cars now have a giant iPad in the console and almost no physical buttons.

When I'm barreling down the interstate and want to change the music, I don't want to fiddle around with a touch screen that requires any sort of attention.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by AWildC182 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:59PM (#19268229)
This x1000. I really wish touchscreen displays were illegal for vehicles. Everything should be done through dedicated buttons and multi-function keys. They've started doing this in aircraft as well and it's infuriating. Try typing in an airport, squawk code, or frequency on a tiny touchscreen display with moderate turbulence in IMC. Not fun...
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by fredley on Thursday February 28, 2019 @07:22AM (#19270840)
This is surprising, I thought air regulations were strict enough to allow this not to happen.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by ErikVandeWater on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:30PM (#19268576)
I think there are ways this could be overcome, and the screen could be way, wayyyy better.

1. Default presets. When you enter the car, you press a menu option to immediately set the car to all your settings (radio to the right station, GPS app opens,seat moves, etc.) (could be done with a button too honestly

2. Increased primary element size - Use 90% of the screen to display the setting you are changing so you don't have to look directly at it. Reduce the size of options you are not currently interested in changing.

3. Gestures - Use gestures to change settings using your muscle memory, not eyes.

4. Use the iPad to display video that helps you drive (blind spot, backup camera)

5. Use of color - When you crank the heat the screen is cast to in a red shade. Make it more intuitive at the subconscious level.

6. Full use of screen to make a change - When you want to adjust with a button or knob, you have to get your hand exactly on that button or knob. But on a screen, you could swipe left anywhere and get the same effect. This would use significantly less attention.

7. Contextual UI - The car notices the windows are fogging up and prompts if you want to turn on screen defrosters.

8.Multiple UIs and UI customizability. Don't like this UI? Try this one! Or just change the one little setting that annoys you. It's your damn car.

9. Stopped? Here's something interesting put on the screen so you stay engaged.

10. Safety tips (stats on your driving, or suggestions on ways to drive safer)

11. Haptic feedback - When you make a change, the screen could vibrate to indicate the change was received

12. Shortcuts - Have your favorite driving settings most conveniently available

13. There's probably more, but if I wrote a 13th one, it would be unlucky! :P

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by frosted-flakes on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:24PM (#19268933)
Mode-based UIs on touch screens don't work well when you need to keep your eyes on the road. The reason traditional dashboards are so easy to use while driving is because each control is always in the same place and can be located and used without seeing it.

Most cars have a fixed set of dash controls: climate, audio, and possibly navigation. Climate controls can easily be just three dials and a couple of buttons (temperature, fan speed, vent direction, and AC/recirculate buttons). Audio can be 4-6 preset buttons and a volume knob, and maybe some little treble/bass/fade/balance knobs. Yet many vehicles completely screw this up.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by pwg on Thursday February 28, 2019 @07:35AM (#19270898)
> 9. Stopped? Here's something interesting put on the screen so you stay engaged.

This one has a very high risk of quickly degrading into my car dashboard showing me advertising when I am stopped.

And the last thing I want is the car I own to be usurped to become yet one more way for the advertising industry to shove ads. at me.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by bloak on Thursday February 28, 2019 @07:26AM (#19270856)
Haptic feedback is a nice idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if the software people screw it up. I've lost count of the number of devices and software UIs that give incorrect feedback: they sometimes beep/flash when the change has not been received, or they sometimes register the change without the usual beep/flash.

Have I encountered a device/UI that errs in both ways? Yes, I think I have: a microwave that beeps and increments the time when you press a button labelled "10 s", but if afterwards you squint carefully at the almost illegible LCD display you find that the number of beeps may differ from the (time / 10 s) by a positive or a negative small integer. There must be two separate button-press-detectors: one for incrementing the time, and one for the "feedback".

Do we have a term for this phenomenon? It's common enough to deserve a name.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by superhuzza on Thursday February 28, 2019 @11:26AM (#19272497)
I think this is just considered poor/inconsistent feedback:

https://www.nngroup.com/articles/top-10-application-design-m...

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by pleasecalllater on Thursday February 28, 2019 @07:52AM (#19270979)
>> and the screen could be way, wayyyy better.

When I'm driving, I want to concentrate on the road and on driving. Tell me, why the steering wheel is not just a picture on a touchscreen? When I'm changing gears, switching on the lights, opening windows, I have physical buttons and knobs, I can just do all that still driving and watching the road. I don't want to gaze at the touchscreen while driving. In many countries using phone kept in hand while driving is illegal, because it causes many accidents when people concentrate more on the screen than on driving.

I wanted to buy a new car, all that I saw have the new touchable interfaces. That's terrible and unsafe.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by ex3ndr on Thursday February 28, 2019 @04:06PM (#19275195)
Which cars? BMW? No. Mercedes? No. Ford? No. etc... only Tesla is going this way.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by Sohcahtoa82 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @05:54PM (#19267656)
> Buttons are intuitive, easy to use, and when they do not work it becomes apparent that something is broken or faulty. Why are we getting rid of them?

Because of some silly idea of what makes something feel modern.

The worst case of this in cars. Steering wheel controls wouldn't need to be a thing if I could reach towards my stereo and feel where the track skip buttons are without having to take my eyes off the road.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by jakelazaroff on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @05:57PM (#19267677)
Re: steering wheel controls, you don't think it's an improvement to be able to keep your eyes on the road and your hands on the wheel?
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by velosol on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:29PM (#19267858)
Those who drive manual cars are frequently removing a hand from the wheel to adjust an aspect of the car without looking and I would be surprised if the momentary loss of a hand on the wheel would mean manual drivers had more accidents than automatic drivers.

Re: steering wheel buttons in general, it depends on how they're implemented. If you take an old idea [1] and provide tactile locating then it is easy to learn. If you can reuse a common paradigm (a knob for volume) there's no learning required. The steering wheel also is already a busy place - you have two or more stalks nearby, sometimes cruise control is part of the steering wheel buttons and even if not the amount of space means you are forced to provide a subset of functions. A stereo with tactile-marked buttons and knobs is known to most drivers via other paradigms and is easy to swap between cars.

[1]: https://patents.google.com/patent/US2350059A/en

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by badfrog on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:09PM (#19267740)
There's really no need for more than one hand on the wheel unless you're turning, in which case you shouldn't be using radio controls anyway.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by paulryanrogers on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:32PM (#19267870)
Just don't ever: grow old, break an arm/hand, become disabled, get weakened by illness, or be born a smaller person. Then yes, you'll always have an extra hand for off-wheek controls.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by ellard on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:51PM (#19267965)
I'm a short guy who has driven my manual car while my right hand was basically a stump from having a knife put through it and having it bandaged up. I did drive slower in general as I couldn't shift as fast and it hurt to do so using the stump, but otherwise I was fine with one hand on the wheel.

For everyone else, we've had automatic cars for forever. There's also a video online of a man with no arms who learned how to drive their car without them.

Edit: changed to be specific about the one hand on the wheel.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by jimmaswell on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:40PM (#19267925)
Applies to manuals too.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by badfrog on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:28PM (#19268567)
It take about 1.5 seconds to move the gear shift. You can wait that long before changing the radio station.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by paulryanrogers on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:41PM (#19268823)
Downvoted because this doesn't address the underlying point: differently abled people are just as important. And if their needs can be met with so little extra effort then why push back so hard?

Consider that at a critical moment the difference between moving a thumb and moving ones whole arm and hand could be the difference between life and death.

EDIT: fixed typos

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by badfrog on Thursday February 28, 2019 @05:53PM (#19276171)
That is an odd reason to downvote considering the comment I replied to didn't mention that at all.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by paulryanrogers on Saturday March 02, 2019 @08:39AM (#19289204)
Fair enough. I thought it was replying to the comment by ellard.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by taneq on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:49PM (#19268192)
Steering wheel controls are less cognitive load than fumbling on your dash, even if you keep your eyes on the road you're still distracted.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by bhelkey on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:59PM (#19267987)
I have physical buttons on my stereo but still choose to use steering wheel controls. It is easier and feels much safer especially when I feel like I need both hands on the wheel.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by heroprotagonist on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @08:10PM (#19268267)
I wish Spotify on Android Auto would take this feedback.

Seriously, a rotary knob can switch focus to the next/previous UI control, so that additional push of tactile button on said rotary knob will activate the control, but they can't simply detect the rotation as 'next/previous', with the push button as 'pause/play' toggle?

Instead I have to rotate the nob and visually track the thin active element outline each time I enter or swap to the app just to get a single tactile 'forward' control. Or, I give up, and continue the process of memorizing the button location on the screen and building muscle memory through repetition to correctly press the same spot on the screen each time without looking at it. Then hope I never need to be in a different car or that nobody adjusts my seat's X/Y/Z axis to screw up that muscle memory.

I suspect it's Spotify's issue, and not Android Auto itself, but most of the Android Auto apps work that way and I don't know where the fault originates. But regardless of who can fix it, it's horrible to allow UX to be designed ignorantly when it is placed to have potential life/death impact.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by untog on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @05:55PM (#19267659)
> Why are we getting rid of them?

Because they break easily. The home button is probably one of the most commonly broken parts of an iPhone, so the X doesn't come with one: ta-da, can't break it any more. Plus, if it's on a screen, you can have an unlimited combination of buttons whenever you want - think of the screen real estate freed up by using an on-screen keyboard on the iPhone compared to a Blackberry.

For what it's worth, I agree with you that buttons are better. But their disappearance isn't a random occurrence.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by penagwin on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @05:59PM (#19267688)
Home buttons break? Do you mean break in the UX/UI or physically break?

I've worked at a phone repair shop for the last 2 years, and I mainly work on iPhones. Very, very rarely are home buttons broken outside of a repair. Usually when they are broken the phone isn't in.... great condition. In fact I'm not sure I recall a home button ever being broken without the rest of the phone being completely shattered.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by untog on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:16PM (#19267787)
I'm surprised! I know at least a few friends that have enabled the accessibility mode home button because their hardware button is broken. Obviously way, way more people have their screens break but in my anecdotal experience a broken home button is not uncommon.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by penagwin on Thursday February 28, 2019 @11:05AM (#19272305)
Here's a fun one too: iPhone 7's and up don't have clicky home buttons. They vibrate to simulate a "click", although it is still a separate piece from the rest of the phone. Try turning one off and pressing it, they don't physically move.

Having the accessibility mode isn't uncommon, I only see phones for a short amount of time and mostly do a quick test, so I'll admit if a button is intermittent I might not catch it.

I will say breaking home buttons during repairs aren't uncommon though, it really depends on how honest the repair shop is. Even veterans can have issues with the home buttons because their cables are _sooooo_ thin, they're glued in place, and even the tiniest tear can mean it's done for. Touch ID can never be replaced and as of 7's and up they cannot be functionally replaced.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by mkoryak on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:05PM (#19267710)
That may be your experience, but I think OP was trying to say that stuff with more moving parts has more points of failure than stuff with no moving parts.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by badfrog on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:10PM (#19267745)
> I think OP was trying to say that stuff with more moving parts has more points of failure than stuff with no moving parts

That's a reasonable point, but it seems they've chosen to illustrate the point with an example that isn't true.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by sosuke on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:07PM (#19267726)
https://www.businessinsider.com/does-iphone-home-button-brea...

That was the first time I heard of the iPhone home button breaking.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by badfrog on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:06PM (#19267717)
> What is the deal with flat design these days? I cannot figure out where to click. Have you used Windows 10 recently or a trendy website lately? It's a disaster in terms of UX.

Google's Material design system actually works well when implemented correctly. If you look at Inbox, you can see at least three distinct layers on the home screen with drop shadows clearly indicating the hierarchy.

The problem is that lots of people tried to copy this system without understanding why it works and ended up with unusable messes.

Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:11PM (#19267750)
Material Design was an evolution from the flat design wave (it's still flatter than peak skeumorphism, but it's not really flat.) I'm not sure that the continuing flat design trend is so much of a bad copy of MD as a trend which preceded MD and continued outside of it.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by thrownaway954 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @05:55PM (#19267660)
i agree about Windows 10. God forbid you put Windows Explorer over something that has a white background as well. There is no way to tell where the top of the window is since Windows Explorer will blend into the white background. Why couldn't they at least put a border around the window or something.
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by _hardwaregeek on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @05:52PM (#19267645)
I think you'd like this scene from Mon Oncle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE9t98Gox60
Re:The phone-makers bringing back buttons by mc32 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @08:23PM (#19268309)
The worst thing about these flat control surfaces for appliances is the cheap plastickey film degrades over time. Knobs and Buttons break too, but you can fix them or replace them physically. Cheap phones get replaced every couple of years, (so wear and breakdown may be slightly more forgivable) but appliances are expected to last a while longer.