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Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @02:23PM (#18666892)
As a gamer, I'm torn on the rtx line. On one hand, it really is super expensive for an entertainment product that will be outdated in a few years. On the other hand, the exceptionally large die justifies that cost on a technical level, and raytracing in real time games is legitimately cool—much more so, IMO, then just another resolution or fps bump.

I certainly don't intend to upgrade, but I admire nVidia for the gutsy move, and I'm glad they're pushing the industry in this direction.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by FooHentai on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @02:54PM (#18667191)
>It has some ray tracing hardware used by nothing.

Hard to fault this. It's reminiscent of when hardware transform & lighting (T&L) was introduced. Nothing used it until the cards existed, but the cards had to come along before anyone would bother coding it into the games.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by ethbro on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @04:58PM (#18668106)
HT&L is a great analogy.

For those who weren't around during the first wave of hardware 3D acceleration (circa 90s), there was a huge amount of "X brand only accelerates this and that game."

Nowadays, with DirectX and OpenGL (somewhat) winning the API war, a GPU is a GPU for all games.

It seems entirely reasonable raytracing hardware and game support follow the same path. Supported in some hardware, supported in some games. If the market likes it, over time we see fewer and fewer games that don't use it.

* Caveat: Things are a little different this time since DirectX 12 supports Ray tracing today, as far as I can tell. And Microsoft doesn't really care who wins between Nvida and AMD (aside from keeping suppliers in competitive bidding for XBox GPUs).

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @05:43PM (#18668381)
That caveat makes the entire analogy wholly inapplicable. nVidia is using standard graphics technologies that AMD + Intel will eventually be able to implement in their own hardware, down the road. Games that support raytracing on rtx cards today will also support raytracing on future AMD cards.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by ethbro on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @11:16PM (#18669818)
Assuming Nvidia didn't lay down a patent minefield behind their implementation.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by RantyDave on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:37AM (#18679153)
Exactly. The question at this point is: what's their patent situation like? They may be able to stop competitors from implementing the same technologies - which would clearly be a pretty worthwhile thing.

I wonder if Intel are about to have deep pockets?

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by derefr on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @06:24PM (#18668609)
> If the market likes it, over time we see fewer and fewer games that don't use it.

You can use accelerated lighting even in a 2D game, but I'm unclear on what casual games would be using ray-tracing for. Have a particular vision of the future you'd like to share?

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by brandonjm on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @08:25PM (#18669177)
If you are developing a AAA title with "hyper-realistic graphics" or a more artistic, cinematic game you can use raytracing to achieve effects which are otherwise 'faked', give you unique effects, or just to get more dynamic lights in scenes.

Indies and less realistic or more "casual" games may not bother with it, just as many of them don't bother with things like parallax mapping and some don't even bother to use textures at all. The features are there and easy to use but developers opt in and out of the different rendering options based on their artistic styling.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by briffle on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @05:51PM (#18668430)
Heck man, in the 90's, the most popular card [0] was a 3d only card. you still needed a regular video card for 2d. And yeah, apps had to be custom written to work with it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3dfx_Interactive#Voodoo2

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by derefr on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @06:30PM (#18668631)
It made sense at the time: everyone's computer already came with a 2D card (since integrated video wasn't a thing yet. Everything was cards.)

There was no pressing need to replace your 2D card, and in fact you might actively dread it (drivers were finicky back then—replacing your 2D card was signing up for a process not dissimilar to that of building a Hackintosh today.) And computers back then had a lot of room and a lot of spare PCI slots. So why not buy a separate card just for 3D, leaving your existing 2D card intact? Smaller change to worry about.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by SmellyGeekBoy on Thursday December 13, 2018 @05:00AM (#18671153)
> drivers were finicky back then—replacing your 2D card was signing up for a process not dissimilar to that of building a Hackintosh today.

Hmm, certainly in the 80s and maybe very early 90s but by the time Voodoo cards came along things were much better. Still not up to the "plug and play" level of today, however.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @03:00PM (#18667251)
Used by nothing right now. The lineup of upcoming rtx games at nVidia's press conference was pretty substantial, it's just that most of them aren't out yet.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by xiphias2 on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @05:20PM (#18668230)
What is missing right now are games that are designed for RTX & DLSS (but they are coming), full of mirrors and shiny objects. All the games that are out use RTX to enhance the experience, which means that Ray Tracing is secondary citizen. Atomic Heart is an example of a game that really depends on Ray Tracing heavily for the best experience.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by FooHentai on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @07:25PM (#18668886)
Unsure - When havoc physics (for example) came on the scene, the usual hype curve of adoption played out where there were were super gimmicky games that required it and relied entirely on game mechanics being pegged around the physics capabilities. It was a short-lived phenomenon. But, today, having that kind of physics engine and capabilities is part of a toolkit that developers draw upon, and many consumers expect to be included, rather than being a single central focus.

I'm predicting this will be the same kind of story playing out again - One vendor kicks it off, some 'demo' games that build heavily on it drop but are quite short-lived, and the tech slowly turns into a commodity feature with in-game settings menu 'on/off' selectors, followed eventually by ubiquitous support to the point that nobody really talks about it any more, it's just part of 'modern graphics'.

Shaders is another good example that followed that kind of pattern, it was all the shit in the late 90s that Q3 had 'shaders', now it's not even a bullet point for most releases, but it's certainly there.

I've rambled, but my point is that I'm not sure a lynchpin 'RTX required' game is needed at all to drive industry-wide adoption here.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by xiphias2 on Friday December 14, 2018 @11:10AM (#18681809)
Sounds interesting. An interesting difference between RTX and the previous techniques is that ray tracing is needed for modern film rendering. It just doesn't make sense that movies are still rendered with CPUs and not a more parallel architecture, so it feels for me that games are just a secondary for NVIDIA for the current version of the card.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by RantyDave on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:40AM (#18679166)
No, I really think the situation is better than that. If you view the ray tracing as "something extra", almost like when shaders were first "invented". You use them to add softer shadows. Caustics. Interesting volumetric tricks. And people will just want them.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by RantyDave on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:35AM (#18679151)
The "cinema quality on the cheap" crowd must be elated. Question is: how big is the market?
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by suresk on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @02:31PM (#18666961)
I am a little torn, too. I built a new machine recently and went with the 2080 (Stepping up to the 2080ti when they become available).

On one hand, there is the appreciation for the technical achievement of something that seemed unlikely for a while (real-time ray tracing), plus as you mention, then increased die size. They look to be pretty good for ML applications, as well.

On the other hand, there is the increased price and, frankly, underwhelming results. The only game that uses the RTX feature suffers substantial performance penalties for turning on the RTX feature and most people (including me) just try it out for a few minutes and then turn it off. Is the quality better? Yeah, the reflections are shaper and more consistent when changing views (ie, aiming down a sight), but they aren't game-changing and are definitely not worth the performance penalty.

This generation of cards is worth skipping if you aren't building a new computer.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by sneakernets on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @05:00PM (#18668122)
Call me Debbie Downer, but I'm still of the opinion that real-time raytracing has yet to prove itself. Most of the examples I've seen achieve effects which have been imitated by faster, more portable techniques for years, and - for the most part - have been still scenes with static lighting, which hasn't been a problem since Quake 2.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by suresk on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @05:24PM (#18668256)
Having played the same game in both modes, there are definite improvements to the quality with this method. Like I said, in most situations without ray tracing, when you do things like look down the scope of a gun, the reflections are lost, but not with RTX. The reflections are also much crisper and more dynamic.

That said, this comes with a pretty big cost, both in $$$ and performance. If this could be accomplished without the substantial performance hit that it seems to come with, then it would be fairly impressive and worth the $$$.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by derefr on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @06:37PM (#18668664)
I'm betting the real killer app will be a game that centers around environments with lots of liquid-solid transitions. Maybe you'd manipulate and move various liquid and gel materials around in zero-gravity, or something. Maybe an "infinidistillery" sequel to Infinifactory.

Or, come to think of it, a "Half-Life 3: Portal 3" where you use gravity+portal+various paint (and other liquid) guns, on an alien ship and in space, would make a lot of sense...

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @05:23PM (#18668247)
I'm kind of with you, partially. Game devs have gotten really, really good at faking reflections. It's not always accurate to real life, but I don't notice.

I personally do think the raytracing footage we've seen is a significant step up, however.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by sneakernets on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @06:59PM (#18668756)
Oh no doubt that it is, but games artists have made pretty convincing imitations of it for so long now that to see a real difference would require removing all the previously bespoke baked-in details. I'm sure artists are simultaneously relieved and saddened by this.

However, nothing will be the step up that bumpmapping brought to the table. Doom 3's textures look like garbage with that disabled, due to the bump/normalmapped greebles all over them. Everything looks like clay or cardboard.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by Konnstann on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @03:04PM (#18667275)
Built mine with a 2080 as well, was able to get one for $700 which is about the same as a 1080ti which was my original plan. RTX doesn't matter for me but the deep learning enhancements and their effects on frame rates are interesting.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by benj111 on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @03:06PM (#18667299)
>raytracing in real time games is legitimately cool

I may be (read am) an old git, and ray tracing just makes me think Wolfenstein 3D. I assume this is a different raytracing? Is it the origin of the rays rather than coming from the 'eye', coming from the light source? Isn't that inefficient? Or something else???

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by Jarb on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @03:36PM (#18667515)
I'm simplifying, but Wolfenstein's technique is called Ray Casting, which calculated the player's view by drawing lines from the player's "eye" to objects and walls in the field of view and use that information to calculate distance and perspective. Ray tracing has been around for forever, but was too resource-intensive to use in real-time until recently. It calculates the path a pixel/light source takes, allowing for realistic lighting (including bouncing off of surfaces) and perfect reflections.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by elFarto on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @03:26PM (#18667437)
Wolfenstein 3D was ray-casting, not ray-tracing. There is quite a difference between the two techniques.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by benj111 on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @03:39PM (#18667541)
Ok thanks.

According to the wikipedia ray casting article, the two were used interchangeably "in early computer graphics literature", just to make me feel even older.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by dahart on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @08:02PM (#18669067)
One of the differences nobody mentioned yet is that Wolfenstein 3D was based on 2D ray casting. It’s much less common to use the term “ray tracing” for two-dimensional rays, and more common to use something more generic like “ray casting” in that case. This is in addition to how the WP article mentions that “ray casting” is currently referring to visibility testing, and “ray tracing” is more often referring to a specific rendering algorithm.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by RantyDave on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:42AM (#18679176)
The big difference is ray casting is just along a line, not on every pixel. Hence the thing with not being able to make overhangs.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by speedplane on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:45AM (#18679185)
> The big difference is ray casting is just along a line, not on every pixel.

I think you have it backwards. Ray tracing is O(#of pixels*number of light bounces). More common 3D rendering is based on O(# of objects in the scene). It's conceivable that ray tracing can be more efficient for scenes with many objects.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by mattdw on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @03:58PM (#18667701)
It's essentially the same process to begin with (I think), but every time the ray hits something you fire off secondary rays probabilistically from the hit point to see what that point is receiving light from, and so on ad infinitum. Usually you're calculating a BSDF[1] for each surface you hit, which tells you where to cast your next set of rays.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidirectional_scattering_distr...

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by michaelmrose on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @03:12PM (#18667337)
Ray tracing produces the best results for complex dynamic lighting. This is why it's used for example in movies. It's also normally done on the cpu which is slow rtx is supposed to do something with specialized hardware on chip which is much faster although games would have to build Nvidia specific features which doesn't bode well.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @04:27PM (#18667905)
> although games would have to build Nvidia specific features which doesn't bode well.

Actually, nVidia's raytracing stuff is—somewhat-uncharacteristically for the company—all done in open APIs.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @09:53PM (#18669532)
I'm past the edit window, but tiny self-correction: I probably should have said "hardware agnostic APIs" instead than "open APIs". DirectX isn't "open" per se, although it depends on your definition.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by AareyBaba on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @05:26PM (#18668270)
https://youtu.be/SrF4k6wJ-do?t=543 This video is one of the best explanations on ray casting/tracing I have come across.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by bmurphy1976 on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @03:30PM (#18667471)
Don't be torn on the RTX line, be practical. The RTX 3080 or RTX 4080 will be amazing. By that time they'll have fixed the initial performance issues and software will be generally available that actually takes advantage of it. Now's a great time to find a used 1080 or two for cheap.

Don't buy the first generation of anything unless you've got money to burn. Get the second or third.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by Animats on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @05:37PM (#18668346)
Now's a great time to find a used 1080 or two for cheap.

No, you'll get something worn out after running flat out for a year in a Monero mining farm.

Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by nkurz on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @07:05PM (#18668790)
What parts are worn out, and how does this affect performance and remaining lifespan? I guess I can see that fan bearings and the like may have physical wear, but I'm surprised that "digital" wear would be a major problem.
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by SmellyGeekBoy on Thursday December 13, 2018 @05:02AM (#18671166)
Shh, let people believe what they want to believe, it keeps the prices down for the rest of us ;)
Re:After losing half its value, Nvidia faces reckoning by lazzlazzlazz on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @08:35PM (#18669237)
> will be outdated in a few years

I seriously doubt that we can take this for granted: the RTX 2080 will almost certainly remain near the state-of-the-art for several years.